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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
Are you saying that if systemd fails my requirements on purely technical terms I can't refuse to put it on my system? I could give a flying rip about social or political BS.

1clue ... no, and I'm completely at a loss to understand why you would think that. The fact that for you the "social and political" are "BS" attests to your not understanding what the terms mean ... your statement in fact is "social and political" (and by your own standards therefore "BS").

1clue wrote:
In my opinion politics and social aspects should not and do not matter in the least. What matters is the code. I refuse to be forced into anything because of somebody else's politics. Repeat that a million times.

The "code" is written by people, often in collaboration with other people, its also supported by people in various ways, exchanged, discussed, etc, etc ... its a cultural product .... and therefore subject to socio-political factors. You seem to think that "socio-political" means something like "governance" or "party affiliation and influence" when it doesn't ... politikos and socii refer to the entire spectrum of our interactions as humans .... including this interaction here. Now, your belligerence in that regard ("I refuse to be forced into anything because of somebody else's politics") seems to come from somewhere outside of what I wrote, and again I don't know where you're getting that from as I certainly didn't suggest that you should do anything ... only that "there are political and social aspects to it" (which are either overlooked or misunderstood). The main point I made was to your attempt to "turn down the heat" but you haven't touched on that so I can only assume it hit a nerve and the above is little but a reaction.

1clue wrote:
The only actual debate is social and political. Based on technical merit, there's no way systemd would be on any system at all as far as I can see.

Not sure I understand that, or what your trying to tell me, or how it relates to what I wrote.

best ... khay
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1clue
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
1clue wrote:
Are you saying that if systemd fails my requirements on purely technical terms I can't refuse to put it on my system? I could give a flying rip about social or political BS.

1clue ... no, and I'm completely at a loss to understand why you would think that. The fact that for you the "social and political" are "BS" attests to your not understanding what the terms mean ... your statement in fact is "social and political" (and by your own standards therefore "BS").

1clue wrote:
In my opinion politics and social aspects should not and do not matter in the least. What matters is the code. I refuse to be forced into anything because of somebody else's politics. Repeat that a million times.

The "code" is written by people, often in collaboration with other people, its also supported by people in various ways, exchanged, discussed, etc, etc ... its a cultural product .... and therefore subject to socio-political factors. You seem to think that "socio-political" means something like "governance" or "party affiliation and influence" when it doesn't ... politikos and socii refer to the entire spectrum of our interactions as humans .... including this interaction here. Now, your belligerence in that regard ("I refuse to be forced into anything because of somebody else's politics") seems to come from somewhere outside of what I wrote, and again I don't know where you're getting that from as I certainly didn't suggest that you should do anything ... only that "there are political and social aspects to it" (which are either overlooked or misunderstood). The main point I made was to your attempt to "turn down the heat" but you haven't touched on that so I can only assume it hit a nerve and the above is little but a reaction.

1clue wrote:
The only actual debate is social and political. Based on technical merit, there's no way systemd would be on any system at all as far as I can see.

Not sure I understand that, or what your trying to tell me, or how it relates to what I wrote.

best ... khay


So, not in order of what you address: There's no nerve hit. I ignored the first part of your response because I think it was entirely without merit and probably incitement to an argument, so I chose not to address it or be sucked into it. What part of "grow up" do you not understand? I included myself on that.

As to what you address here: The code of systemd is inferior to openrc for my purposes. That's all that matters to me. I care not one bit how it came to be, or who sponsors what.

It's incomprehensible to me how so much energy can be spent discussing this. The code is better for your purposes, or it's not. Use it, or not. Get on with it. Why should this be any different than choosing a system logger?

That's why I said the issues being debated are only social and political, because technically speaking it's a simple decision.
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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Shamus397 wrote:
It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, as there is nothing missing from the Funtoo install of Gnome 3.12+.

You are not the one having to wrangle bugs that will occur in a configuration that is unsupported by upstream.
You are also not the user who, seeking for help, will be turned down by upstream "because Gentoo".

Such arrogance.
Wow, seems I've touched on a nerve here. Look, all I'm saying is that the problems that some people have said are intractable are, in fact, not. And sorry if that hurts your feelings man.

If it's because I said that it's a shame that the Gentoo Gnome devs are approaching things from a viewpoint of lack, then I stand by that; it's a shame, especially when others are doing pioneering work in turning back the tide of awfulness coming from a bunch of arrogant developers who think they know how things should be done better than anybody else (Poettering & co., just to absolutely clear).

And it's true, I'm not the one having to support the that stuff, so I can understand the frustration on the Gentoo dev side with the things you mentioned. But ultimately that's a choice the Gentoo Gnome devs are making.
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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
There is no hostility towards Funtoo, was only pointing that they haven't solved any of the issues Gentoo's GNOME team opted to use sys-apps/systemd by default for (but leave the option to use OpenRC, but mask it as it's semi-broken)
How do you know they haven't solved them? Have you actually talked to the guy who did the work like I have?

ssuominen wrote:
People too easily put others to some pro- or anti- categories. I like working with Funtoo developers and helping them much as I can. I like working with udev, and working with both eudev and systemd developers. There is no hostility whatsover, but if people can't face the technical facts, it's them who have the problem.
And you obviously haven't done your homework, otherwise you wouldn't continue to cast aspersions on the work that's been done by the Funtoo guys with the latest version of Gnome. What part of 'nothing is missing' do you not understand?
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1clue
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing to append to what I said before:

Let the systemd thing play out. A few packages will come to have hard dependencies to systemd or family, but most will not because their apps don't benefit from such a dependency.

If Gentoo developers think that it's worth the effort to "save" a package, then so be it, it's their decision and I support it. If they decide otherwise, then I support that too.

From my perspective, the apps I use don't need systemd. Linux is still Linux. Either the masses will decide systemd is not worth it and choose alternatives, or systemd will get better, or individual app maintainers will get sick of it and remove hard dependencies as other alternatives come available, or I'll just continue to use so-called antiquated init systems.

Until such a time, there are still lots of ways to have a fully functional box without systemd if that's what you want, and of course those who want systemd can have their cake too.

So again, why can't we just get on with it?

Complaining on Gentoo forums that Gnome doesn't work accomplishes nothing. Complain to the Gnome people. Show them your desktop from a non-Gnome desktop so they know their bad choices have divorced you from them. Same thing with other packages. That's the only political/social action that matters. Bitching about it here does nothing but foul the air.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
So, not in order of what you address: There's no nerve hit. I ignored the first part of your response because I think it was entirely without merit and probably incitement to an argument, so I chose not to address it or be sucked into it. What part of "grow up" do you not understand? I included myself on that.

1clue ... I'm probably twice your age and I don't need to be told to "grow up", I'm even old enough to know what the term means, thank you. If there was any incitement then it was in the post I responded to ... "grow up", "the sky is falling", "flame war", are not factually descriptive, they are in fact loaded ... your free to tell yourself to "grow up" just leave me out of it, so too with "the sky is falling" (which, note, wasn't something you included yourself in and was one of the terms I drew attention to, so don't try and shift attention).

1clue wrote:
As to what you address here: The code of systemd is inferior to openrc for my purposes. That's all that matters to me. I care not one bit how it came to be, or who sponsors what.

Ummm no, that's not what I was addressing, but ok, on your desert island .... pooooff ... no systemd, no openrc, no one and nothing to bother you at all ... in fact you can't even receive or understand this, because you've given up everything that has any whiff of being "social and political" (like language, technology, etc, etc).

1clue wrote:
It's incomprehensible to me how so much energy can be spent discussing this. The code is better for your purposes, or it's not. Use it, or not. Get on with it. Why should this be any different than choosing a system logger?

Should I expend "energy" replying to such a question, I mean, it would be "incomprehensible" for me to do so by your own argument. If I did I might ask, why raise such a question, and why to me specifically?

1clue wrote:
That's why I said the issues being debated are only social and political, because technically speaking it's a simple decision.

OK, but again that doesn't seem to have any relation to what I wrote, and so I don't know why you feel the need to make that point.

best ... khay
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:

Complaining on Gentoo forums that Gnome doesn't work accomplishes nothing. Complain to the Gnome people. Show them your desktop from a non-Gnome desktop so they know their bad choices have divorced you from them. Same thing with other packages. That's the only political/social action that matters. Bitching about it here does nothing but foul the air.


Given that the GNOME people have repeatedly broken things against the wishes of their users (it took me until something like GNOME 2.12 for it to finally be feature complete enough again to stop using 1.4 and they really don't care how bad GNOME 3 was received by a significant portion of their former user base) and are primarily supported by the same people as those paying for the development of systemd, good luck there. Good luck when if it starts taking over other software similarly owned and developed.

As for bitching about it here goes... It is our voices which likely stopped the systemd proponents within Gentoo from going even farther than they have already. Sitting down and shutting up is a good way to get steamrolled, which is precisely what happened when the systemd faction started picking up Council seats last year to force their wishes on others.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven et al,

Gentoo policy is to follow upstream as closely as possible, not carry ever growing patch sets that $UPSTREAM will not accept.
On occasions a like minded group get together and create a fork, like eudev. Again because $UPSTREAM will not accept the patches.

The Gentoo Gnome team do not have the manpower to fix it to work without systemd. The reality is that other Gentoo teams faced with the same choices will follow the Gentoo policy.

Of course if the skills and organisation exist, Gnome and others can be forked. This assumes that Gnome is worth "saving".
There is still plenty of choice in the Linux ecosystem. Its being reduced by bad decisions by $UPSTREAM but not removed.

The choice today ie that if you choose Gnome, you choose systemd too. Thats what Red Hat want.

Summed up and locked. Another systemd thread gone bad.
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