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1clue
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
1clue wrote:
While I'm most definitely not a systemd proponent, I take issue with the tone of this post and others like it.

If you're not going to help, then you shouldn't post to that topic at all, or if systemd (or whatever topic) enters the mix after you've already posted, you should say you don't use it and then stop posting things related to the disliked package or any of the alternatives, unless alternatives are being discussed.

This goes for any topic you don't have direct experience on.

What on Earth gave you the impression that's not what he does? You're assuming that he goes around trolling, instead of simply ignoring certain threads.

The context was people not helping when systemd is involved, usually because they simply have nfc what interactions it's causing, which is why they don't run it. If they state in a thread like this that they don't help because of systemd, that's their right. They're even more of volunteers than a developer who's signed up to be one.

Frankly I take issue with both the tone of your post, and the way you've built a strawman to take that tone in the first place.


I took that post on its own, and the nature of this thread. I don't directly target the author of that post so much as the "I'm not going to help you" attitude, rather than keeping silent on it.

I also take into account the number of times I've started a support thread containing the word "systemd" and had someone else come in and spout hate at me for it, one way or another.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:

I also take into account the number of times I've started a support thread containing the word "systemd" and had someone else come in and spout hate at me for it, one way or another.


And that's the reaction to the intentional nudge by the pro-systemd forces at the macro (all distributions must adopt systemd or else be abandoned from upstream on projects that drop support for non-systemd systems) at the distro (how many times has a pro-systemd person started a new thread just to troll, worked to get in depth discussions locked, etc and at the non-forum level, I again point to WilliamH's misdeeds as a council member and project lead)...

I'm not saying the people that engage in tit-for-tat behavior are right, but this is exactly what was desired by the systemd project with regard to seeking standardization on systemd with the abandonment of long existing standards and inter-project cooperation.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I'm not saying the people that engage in tit-for-tat behavior are right, but this is exactly what was desired by the systemd project with regard to seeking standardization on systemd with the abandonment of long existing standards and inter-project cooperation.

This is one of the biggest reasons I have in mind when I call for turning down the heat. That generation of friction tends to damage our community, which, after all, contains a locus of opposition to systemd.

By the way, 1clue, congratulations for your leet-numbered (1337) post.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
I'd hope to turn down the temperature a bit on the "you're one of those stinking systemd users" namecalling.

miket ... in which case don't raise the temperature by framing what was said in such a provocative way ... there was absolutely no "namecalling", or disrespect, involved. I tried to show that community is based on agreements ... I don't impose my will on others because I know that by doing so I will give them reason to return the same in kind (ie, cause them to be uncooperative with me and so disrupt the relationship of trust we require to function as a community). The same is true for our community, if one section of the community acts unilaterally then other sections of that community who are effected by that action will have cause to avoid collaborating. Its this dynamic that allows our community to function, we tolerate each others particular choices and agree to support each other in that regard, but on a functional level this only works when all concerned are getting what they want (mostly at least, there will no doubt be some level of give and take), it breaks down if one party is having to bare the negative outcomes of the others actions.

I have no problem with users being able to make choices that I wouldn't necessarily make, I would generally see the fact that these are available as a good thing ... it makes the community more diverse, inclusive, etc. However, systemd isn't one of those choices by virtue of its stated goal ("standardising the base system") and the methods by which this goal is "gently [sic] pushed". The only thing that gives me the right to take issue with this is the fact that I am active in this community, I provide my free time and (hopefully) provide something of service, and in that regard I'm invested in the community and so care about the direction it takes, and all the things that make it function. I decided to stop supporting systemd users as I really had no other recourse, I've tried to raise the issue for a very long time (it goes back as far as November 13th, 2012) but I've yet to see the community (from the governance structure all the way down) acknowledge it with any seriousness ... in fact discussing anything related to systemd has been practically impossible. So, in the absence of being able to raise the issue, and have it recognised, I have taken to removing my support for it entirely.

best ... khay
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1clue
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By my previous few posts I've been trying to get all sides to turn down the heat. Gentoo forums are starting to remind me of the old-school flame wars in newsgroups of years past. I'm guilty of some of it too, just because people keep reciprocating, I feel that I have to reciprocate. It's like pre-school all over again: If you can't play nicely, then don't play at all. Let's all grow up just a bit.

Seriously, there are only a few possible options I can think of:

  1. Systemd complies with an open standard that makes sense.
  2. Somebody writes something else that satisfies all the dependencies.
  3. Application builders as a general rule realize that there's no reason to depend on a single boot loader, and continue to release apps that don't care.
  4. Systemd will become less crappy.
  5. The kernel splits, the apps split and there are two major schemes.
  6. Everyone uses systemd for whatever reason.
  7. Nobody uses systemd for whatever reason.


Frankly those last 3 are crazy and extremely unlikely to happen. Well, maybe Redhat forks the kernel, that doesn't seem too far out there IMO since they've been trying to inject their code into it for years. Personally I think a few apps including Gnome will be systemd only, and most of the rest of the world will go on. Sooner or later somebody will come up with a better alternative to systemd, OR systemd will become less crappy. Or both.

In any case, the Open Source community has rarely limited itself to exactly one of anything. There are already several boot loaders and there will almost certainly continue to be several boot loaders, and they will continue to work for some percentage of the builds or they will fall into disuse.

Running around and yelling, "The sky is falling!" isn't going to solve anything.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:

Seriously, there are only a few possible options I can think of:

  1. Systemd complies with an open standard that makes sense.
  2. Somebody writes something else that satisfies all the dependencies.
  3. Application builders as a general rule realize that there's no reason to depend on a single boot loader, and continue to release apps that don't care.
  4. Systemd will become less crappy.
  5. The kernel splits, the apps split and there are two major schemes.
  6. Everyone uses systemd for whatever reason.
  7. Nobody uses systemd for whatever reason.


Or systemd uses its financial backing to keep 1 or 2 from happening by constantly redefining interfaces so nobody else can catch up, just as Microsoft has a history of doing, 3 supposes that systemd is only a boot loader and not the entire layer between the kernel and whatever is left of userspace despite the stated goals claiming otherwise, 4 is impossible unless systemd gives up the monolithic unified userspace goal which isn't going to happen. 6 and 7 aren't going to happen as there are die-hards on both sides UNLESS you consider CoreOS (ie, systemd) and Linux to be different things.

5, IMO is the most likely scenario.

Quote:

Frankly those last 3 are crazy and extremely unlikely to happen. Well, maybe Redhat forks the kernel, that doesn't seem too far out there IMO since they've been trying to inject their code into it for years. Personally I think a few apps including Gnome will be systemd only, and most of the rest of the world will go on.


RH has long maintained its own kernel, including lots of backporting and patches that are likely to only ever exist in the RH kernel. They may use Linus' kernel for a base, but it often diverges quite a bit from there. Last I knew (and admittedly, my knowledge might be stale here), RH was paying more devs in kernel development, the GNOME project, gcc and glibc, etc than anyone else. In fact, that they have their tentacles in everything is precisely why you can sum them up in one sentence - they are the company you pay when you need serious Linux support. Effectively, they already maintain their own forks and, sure, contribute a ton of code back to everyone, but systemd/CoreOS/whatever you want to call it, is where the altruistic purposes behind it was supplanted primarily for the type of forced market consolidation/leverage and profit motive that we've seen from Microsoft.

So, given that RH essentially already maintains its own forks, how is 5 NOT the most likely scenario, given it's what we pretty much already have. It's everyone using the RH fork (all of the distros that have jumped on the systemd bandwagon, the people fundamentally overhauling their base system to satisfy GNOME 3 requirements, etc) versus those using the original pre-forked trunk (and possibly forking that into different directions). GNOME 3 vs Mate, systemd vs OpenRC, systemd vs udev vs eudev, etc. 5 is already what we have and there are people doing their best to try to stomp it out - namely, the systemd proponents (dare I say evangelists given their fervor to convert others to their view, by words if possible and force if necessary?)

Quote:
Sooner or later somebody will come up with a better alternative to systemd, OR systemd will become less crappy. Or both.


That statement is predicated on the notion that systemd is already better than what is out there... and it isn't, by far. It may be the best for your needs or for someone else's needs, but don't presume that its One True Way is the best for my needs or the needs of others.

Fighting to preserving that choice, ie, option 5, is what I and others are doing PRECISELY BECAUSE of the evangelists that want to force us to use what they use...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
5, IMO is the most likely scenario.
...
RH has long maintained its own kernel, including lots of backporting and patches that are likely to only ever exist in the RH kernel.


and they can name it "RH and LP's OS" or just shorten it to POS and be done with it. :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or systemd uses its financial backing to keep 1 or 2 from happening by constantly redefining interfaces so nobody else can catch up, just as Microsoft has a history of doing, 3 supposes that systemd is only a boot loader and not the entire layer between the kernel and whatever is left of userspace despite the stated goals claiming otherwise,
I think you ignored a key point in this. Developers from other projects have a strong incentive not to include systemd in their projects. If they can't rely on an API then they have a strong incentive using alternative solutions to achieve their required results.

Also as I pointed out before many other key projects have strong backing and require support on other *nixs. cups and xorg for example.

Anyway, I think 8 is most likely: systemd is being oversold and development problems will cause it to loose favor and eventually be abandoned before it becomes too widely used.

True, they seek to control the entire kernel to userland interface, but that only works as long as everyone plays along and I don't think they will. Projects like KDE and Gnome might, but they are not the only game in town. However, I think the coup d'etat is going to be the server market. Servers need stability and maintainability. Systemd simply doesn't offer this. It is a complex, desktop oriented solution. This is where I would expect the major backlash to occur. Unwary admins install a systemd server and then realize how bad it is and then demand grows for a non-systemd platform.

Oh, before anyone complains about me not having experience with systemd, actually I do. I was maintaining it on a my laptop for a while. It was never easy to use and when it did fail it didn't even give me a rescue shell. It just thrashed for about 10 minutes before I turned it off and explained to a professor I couldn't come in to work due to computer problems. Since my work involved signing into servers via private key authentication no substitute computer would work.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
Quote:
Or systemd uses its financial backing to keep 1 or 2 from happening by constantly redefining interfaces so nobody else can catch up, just as Microsoft has a history of doing, 3 supposes that systemd is only a boot loader and not the entire layer between the kernel and whatever is left of userspace despite the stated goals claiming otherwise,
I think you ignored a key point in this. Developers from other projects have a strong incentive not to include systemd in their projects. If they can't rely on an API then they have a strong incentive using alternative solutions to achieve their required results.

Also as I pointed out before many other key projects have strong backing and require support on other *nixs. cups and xorg for example.


I don't see anything happening with cups given its Apple ownership and Apple doing their own thing, but I fear that xorg is going to be phased out in favor of Wayland, which as a fdo project, is quite flirty with systemd. We've already seen xorg get in with the precursors of systemd like HAL, much to everyone's detriment as well.

Also, if apps are ultimately packaged via a distribution, what upstream does may not matter all that much and, if that upstream is owned by a systemd evangelist that insists on keeping non-systemd compatibility out, like potentially any project which RH maintains, then everything falls on the holdout distributions like Gentoo to maintain those non-systemd compatibility patches, which is not only cumbersome, but goes against the wishes of an openly hostile pro-systemd faction among Gentoo's devs (again, the Council voted that, as of last October, it's perfectly fine for key packages like lvm, util-linux, etc to completely adopt the RH stupidity like throwing boot required files anywhere in the filesystem and not just under / to further hamper people that won't adopt the One True Way).

Quote:

True, they seek to control the entire kernel to userland interface, but that only works as long as everyone plays along and I don't think they will. Projects like KDE and Gnome might, but they are not the only game in town. However, I think the coup d'etat is going to be the server market. Servers need stability and maintainability. Systemd simply doesn't offer this. It is a complex, desktop oriented solution. This is where I would expect the major backlash to occur. Unwary admins install a systemd server and then realize how bad it is and then demand grows for a non-systemd platform.


The server room is the one place where I expect the most vocal resistance to systemd... but with RHEL adopting it, I wonder how many sysadmins will feel forced by their upstream. Even their CentOS option was compromised with RH buying them out too.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I don't see anything happening with cups given its Apple ownership and Apple doing their own thing, but I fear that xorg is going to be phased out in favor of Wayland, which as a fdo project, is quite flirty with systemd. We've already seen xorg get in with the precursors of systemd like HAL, much to everyone's detriment as well.
True enough, but xorg isn't going anywhere for a long time. Most distros are still using it and even after wayland starts to pick up steam long term support will be given to it so it should be "current" for a good while.
saellaven wrote:
The server room is the one place where I expect the most vocal resistance to systemd... but with RHEL adopting it, I wonder how many sysadmins will feel forced by their upstream. Even their CentOS option was compromised with RH buying them out too.
I bet many will and many will try it. I am also betting that technical problems are going to convince them that it was a bad idea. At that point a large number will probably revert back to a version that doesn't include it and demand an alternative.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@saelivan,

Yes Redhat has been managing its own fork of the kernel, and they apply upstream to it. But so does Gentoo, and pretty much every other distro out there. The number and size/impact of changes varies from distro to distro, but they all do it.

I think there's too much fear-mongering going on here. Microsoft never got the entire market, and they were a big splash ever since day one. Redhat won't get 100% of the Linux market either, there are already way more viable alternatives with real benefit for them to get the entire share, or even so much of it as would seriously cramp anyone determined to go their own way.

Sure, things like Gnome might be lost to systemd-only but that's the nature of things. I can't say how many apps over the years I liked, then they changed something and I didn't like them anymore. Or, for that matter, the other way around.

@The Doctor,

I think your option 8 is my option 3.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@1clue Almost, but I think they are slightly different. Your 3 predicted that applications wouldn't care based on design. My option is based partly on it that and systemd generating push back before there is a major change in the larger projects. If we are going to be realistic 3-5 are all already happening to a certain degree.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
I bet many will and many will try it. I am also betting that technical problems are going to convince them that it was a bad idea. At that point a large number will probably revert back to a version that doesn't include it and demand an alternative.

It might work for a user sysadmin, not for professional sysadmin ; pro sysadmin have prize pressure on them.
If redhat offer openrc instead of systemd as option, for 50$, what the sysadmin boss will tell him with 100 servers to migrate?
What if systemd support is free with redhat, but openrc support is another option ($$$). What about delays while migrating to new init system? What if migration is specially harder if the distro has everything tied to systemd? What revert to previous version when previous version support is gone? What if redhat tell "rhe support is void if not using systemd"...

Except computer companies (i mean companies with a boss that clearly understand the needed change), nearly all companies will prefer the sysadmin complain and their system running on one foot than putting again big money without 100% warranty result (no sysadmin could really sanely affirm to his boss the migration will be looseless if everything is tied with systemd).

You can tied companies with costs ; use what you brought or pay more will be something all sysadmin will have hard time to explain to their boss.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@krinn
I hadn't really thought about that too much. I was honestly envisioning switching to an older release that was still supported but didn't use systemd. I would never dream RH would offer an alternative init in their distro.

But on the other hand, is a boss really going to accept it if his uptime suffers? Systemd only support isn't going to appear right now since they have commitments to support older versions. I know that the cluster I was working on at the university was very bumpy due to the departure of the previous admin. If the new one had said "If we change to X I can get that cluster back up to full function in a few days" several professors would have paid for it out of their research budgets because of all the time we where losing.

Also, if RH makes a bad release isn't it a good possibility that they may turn to a different distribution in the future, like Ubuntu?
Quote:
You can tied companies with costs ; use what you brought or pay more will be something all sysadmin will have hard time to explain to their boss.
Certainly true, but there should also be system admins who explain why they should not buy a certain product because it is causing instabilities and that a different one is more reliable.

I'm not going to pretend I have any experience in this area. I'm just extrapolating from how capitalism works making a bad product is going to cause push back.

EDIT: I guess the point I'm trying to make is if Toyota makes a terrible model, even if it starts as a hot seller with raving support, isn't that going cause customer dissatisfaction and eventually cause new customers to look elsewhere for their transportation needs?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the side discussion about not answering systemd threads: this guy looks like he needs help from either one camp or the other https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-995976.html
It appears an emerge has pulled in systemd, he's asking for help in how to switch as he's been "forced" to, which reads to me as he actually wouldn't mind advice on getting rid of it as well/instead.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
@krinn
I hadn't really thought about that too much. I was honestly envisioning switching to an older release that was still supported but didn't use systemd. I would never dream RH would offer an alternative init in their distro.

But on the other hand, is a boss really going to accept it if his uptime suffers? Systemd only support isn't going to appear right now since they have commitments to support older versions. I know that the cluster I was working on at the university was very bumpy due to the departure of the previous admin. If the new one had said "If we change to X I can get that cluster back up to full function in a few days" several professors would have paid for it out of their research budgets because of all the time we where losing.

Also, if RH makes a bad release isn't it a good possibility that they may turn to a different distribution in the future, like Ubuntu?


The same Ubuntu that decided to adopt systemd too? Or Debian, which has voted and begun migrating to systemd? Right now, their bigger choices are roughly Gentoo and Slackware.

and keep in mind, the reverse scenario is true too... Old sysadmin leaves and the new guy with his shiny RH certification comes in and decides that those old boot methods won't do as his RH training says systemd is the way forward and primarily dealt with that.


Quote:
Certainly true, but there should also be system admins who explain why they should not buy a certain product because it is causing instabilities and that a different one is more reliable.

I'm not going to pretend I have any experience in this area. I'm just extrapolating from how capitalism works making a bad product is going to cause push back.


"Nobody got fired for buying RH..." coming to a PHB near you

Quote:
EDIT: I guess the point I'm trying to make is if Toyota makes a terrible model, even if it starts as a hot seller with raving support, isn't that going cause customer dissatisfaction and eventually cause new customers to look elsewhere for their transportation needs?


and if nearly every other manufacturer made the same terrible decisions with all of their models and the handful of manufacturers that held out were constantly understaffed?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
By my previous few posts I've been trying to get all sides to turn down the heat. Gentoo forums are starting to remind me of the old-school flame wars in newsgroups of years past. I'm guilty of some of it too, just because people keep reciprocating, I feel that I have to reciprocate. It's like pre-school all over again: If you can't play nicely, then don't play at all. Let's all grow up just a bit.

1clue ... honestly, if this was an attempt to "turn down the heat" then I don't see what function alluding to childishness serves. In fact, having "flame war", "grow up", and chicken little ("the sky is falling") thrown indiscriminately seems more of a provocation than anything. I resent the insinuation as it further enforces the idea that any reasonable discussion is impossible.

You then go on to present the "problem" as entirely technical, which it isn't ... there are political and social aspects to it (some of which I've tried to draw out), if there is conflict here it is in how these political and social aspects are understood because unlike "what will happen" these can readily be extrapolated, in fact we can probably get a better idea of "what will happen" by using the social sciences than by speculating on what "possible options" are technically available. That is because people, communities, entities, etc, are involved ... the technology is on a tier above.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
You then go on to present the "problem" as entirely technical, which it isn't ... there are political and social aspects to it (some of which I've tried to draw out), if there is conflict here it is in how these political and social aspects are understood because unlike "what will happen" these can readily be extrapolated, in fact we can probably get a better idea of "what will happen" by using the social sciences than by speculating on what "possible options" are technically available. That is because people, communities, entities, etc, are involved ... the technology is on a tier above.


Sadly, every time the "we don't want to be forced to use systemd" faction gets into the technical aspects of why systemd is inferior, the systemd proponents usually start flailing about, resulting in locked threads. We've had a dozen or more threads on the forums that delved deep into technical issues, only to get locked over the last 2-3 years.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
Also, nothing is stopping you from becoming a Gentoo developer and improving our GNOME 3.12+ support for non-systemd systems. Futhermore, it's possible to install GNOME 3.12+ without systemd from Portage as-is:

Code:

$ grep openrc /usr/portage/gnome-*/*/metadata.xml
gnome-base/gnome-settings-daemon/metadata.xml: <flag name="openrc-force">Skip systemd dependency (#480336),
gnome-base/gnome-shell/metadata.xml: <flag name="openrc-force">Skip systemd dependency (#480336),


And you aren't really pushing anything by complaining at the forums. Only meaningful pushing is pushing[1] of the code.

[1] http://git-scm.com/docs/git-push

And I'd like to point out that no offense intended, none, only being realistic.

What a strange response. I wasn't complaining on the forums, I was saying, basically, that the people who are saying 'just give up, SystemD is going to take over' are *wrong*, pushback is happening and, furthermore, in the camp where it was said to be impossible (Gnome 3.12+)! Also, the Funtoo guy who removed the hard dependency on SystemD certainly 'pushed the code', so I'm having a hard time understanding why you're upbraiding me here. :P

Also, I have no interest in Gnome, why on earth would I want to become a Gnome dev? :P I would say that if the Gentoo Gnome devs are struggling with supporting non SystemD systems, maybe they should talk to the Funtoo guys who have done it? :)

That said, I'm glad to see the Gentoo Gnome devs aren't just rolling over; kudos to those guys for trying to keep OpenRC an option. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
I would say that if the Gentoo Gnome devs are struggling with supporting non SystemD systems, maybe they should talk to the Funtoo guys who have done it? :)

That said, I'm glad to see the Gentoo Gnome devs aren't just rolling over; kudos to those guys for trying to keep OpenRC an option. :)


Gentoo Gnome team added USE="openrc-force" behind package.use.mask to inform users they will be getting incomplete / partly unfunctional GNOME without systemd
What Funtoo is doing is removing that protection set in place by the Gentoo Gnome team, so that Funtoo's GNOME users upgrading from older than 3.12 to 3.12 will silently
lose features
No porting patches have been created to replace systemd-logind and other bits GNOME 3.12+ uses

So, indeed, kudos to Gentoo's Gnome team for protecting users, and 'boo!' for Funtoo for removing that protection without proper porting patchset to go back to ConsoleKit, UPower 0.9.23, and other old methods

Maybe it will improve at some point, but that's the current situation, negative all the way
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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
Gentoo Gnome team added USE="openrc-force" behind package.use.mask to inform users they will be getting incomplete / partly unfunctional GNOME without systemd
What Funtoo is doing is removing that protection set in place by the Gentoo Gnome team, so that Funtoo's GNOME users upgrading from older than 3.12 to 3.12 will silently
lose features
No porting patches have been created to replace systemd-logind and other bits GNOME 3.12+ uses

So, indeed, kudos to Gentoo's Gnome team for protecting users, and 'boo!' for Funtoo for removing that protection without proper porting patchset to go back to ConsoleKit, UPower 0.9.23, and other old methods

Maybe it will improve at some point, but that's the current situation, negative all the way

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, as there is nothing missing from the Funtoo install of Gnome 3.12+. Really, don't understand the hostility towards Funtoo here. Maybe next time you'll do your homework before spouting off about something you obviously could not be bothered to investigate? ;)

Sad news that Gentoo's approach is one of poverty. Pity. :(
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
ssuominen wrote:
Gentoo Gnome team added USE="openrc-force" behind package.use.mask to inform users they will be getting incomplete / partly unfunctional GNOME without systemd
What Funtoo is doing is removing that protection set in place by the Gentoo Gnome team, so that Funtoo's GNOME users upgrading from older than 3.12 to 3.12 will silently
lose features
No porting patches have been created to replace systemd-logind and other bits GNOME 3.12+ uses

So, indeed, kudos to Gentoo's Gnome team for protecting users, and 'boo!' for Funtoo for removing that protection without proper porting patchset to go back to ConsoleKit, UPower 0.9.23, and other old methods

Maybe it will improve at some point, but that's the current situation, negative all the way

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, as there is nothing missing from the Funtoo install of Gnome 3.12+. Really, don't understand the hostility towards Funtoo here. Maybe next time you'll do your homework before spouting off about something you obviously could not be bothered to investigate? ;)

Sad news that Gentoo's approach is one of poverty. Pity. :(
From Debian devel, 10-2013 :
Uoti Urpala wrote:
There are multiple distinct APIs GNOME needs. Things like power
management may not work without systemd as init, but I'm not really
sure. However, the most important part is logind. It probably mostly
works without systemd as init with the current v204 systemd packages,
but once the package is updated to a newer version it WILL NOT work
without systemd as init due to cgroup management changes. And as
discussed elsewhere in this thread, it does not appear realistic to keep
it working. If someone wants to create a logind for systems not using
systemd as init, that would need to be a separate package (maintained by
people other than the systemd maintainers), perhaps created by forking
logind from old systemd versions.

GNOME can run without logind. However, some parts that are considered
core functionality will not work.
However, I have not found out what these parts that won't work are.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
1clue wrote:
By my previous few posts I've been trying to get all sides to turn down the heat. Gentoo forums are starting to remind me of the old-school flame wars in newsgroups of years past. I'm guilty of some of it too, just because people keep reciprocating, I feel that I have to reciprocate. It's like pre-school all over again: If you can't play nicely, then don't play at all. Let's all grow up just a bit.

1clue ... honestly, if this was an attempt to "turn down the heat" then I don't see what function alluding to childishness serves. In fact, having "flame war", "grow up", and chicken little ("the sky is falling") thrown indiscriminately seems more of a provocation than anything. I resent the insinuation as it further enforces the idea that any reasonable discussion is impossible.

You then go on to present the "problem" as entirely technical, which it isn't ... there are political and social aspects to it (some of which I've tried to draw out), if there is conflict here it is in how these political and social aspects are understood because unlike "what will happen" these can readily be extrapolated, in fact we can probably get a better idea of "what will happen" by using the social sciences than by speculating on what "possible options" are technically available. That is because people, communities, entities, etc, are involved ... the technology is on a tier above.

best ... khay



Khayyam,

Are you saying that if systemd fails my requirements on purely technical terms I can't refuse to put it on my system? I could give a flying rip about social or political BS.

In my opinion politics and social aspects should not and do not matter in the least. What matters is the code. I refuse to be forced into anything because of somebody else's politics. Repeat that a million times.

The only actual debate is social and political. Based on technical merit, there's no way systemd would be on any system at all as far as I can see.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, as there is nothing missing from the Funtoo install of Gnome 3.12+.

You are not the one having to wrangle bugs that will occur in a configuration that is unsupported by upstream.
You are also not the user who, seeking for help, will be turned down by upstream "because Gentoo".

Such arrogance.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
ssuominen wrote:
Gentoo Gnome team added USE="openrc-force" behind package.use.mask to inform users they will be getting incomplete / partly unfunctional GNOME without systemd
What Funtoo is doing is removing that protection set in place by the Gentoo Gnome team, so that Funtoo's GNOME users upgrading from older than 3.12 to 3.12 will silently
lose features
No porting patches have been created to replace systemd-logind and other bits GNOME 3.12+ uses

So, indeed, kudos to Gentoo's Gnome team for protecting users, and 'boo!' for Funtoo for removing that protection without proper porting patchset to go back to ConsoleKit, UPower 0.9.23, and other old methods

Maybe it will improve at some point, but that's the current situation, negative all the way

It's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about, as there is nothing missing from the Funtoo install of Gnome 3.12+. Really, don't understand the hostility towards Funtoo here. Maybe next time you'll do your homework before spouting off about something you obviously could not be bothered to investigate? ;)

Sad news that Gentoo's approach is one of poverty. Pity. :(


There is no hostility towards Funtoo, was only pointing that they haven't solved any of the issues Gentoo's GNOME team opted to use sys-apps/systemd by default for (but leave the option to use OpenRC, but mask it as it's semi-broken)

To name some that come to mind without reading too much source code,

- No Hibernate and Suspend with UPower 0.99.x on GNOME 3.12+ without systemd, because there is no direct support for sys-power/pm-utils like Xfce has in ~arch
- Lack of randr functionality in GNOME 3.12+ without systemd
- The sys-apps/systemd "per user session" support

As in, just pointing out exposing these bugs to users is not an improvement, it's an regression

People too easily put others to some pro- or anti- categories. I like working with Funtoo developers and helping them much as I can. I like working with udev, and working with both eudev and systemd developers. There is no hostility whatsover, but if people can't
face the technical facts, it's them who have the problem.
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