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Gatsby
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Gatsby wrote:
I concur. I also do not provide support for users of "poetterware". That includes sysD, pulseaudio, avahi etc.
They can ask Poettering & Co. for assistance. :evil:

Sounds strange, with no one having requested support from you for packages that you yourself do not use.

Well, I don't give support on Unity, Gnome, (meaningless list goes on) either...

My friend again.. you like me, don't you? :wink:
To clear things up for you.. I will not support users of poetterware, no matter what kind of questions they should ask.

Gatsby
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such behaviour can only be harmful to an otherwise great community. Unrelated support matters should not be turned down based on init system choice. Fine enough if you think the use of any of those packages could have a say in the matter, bad if you scan 'emerge --info' for systemd and refuse to, let's say, give a helping hand in a simple dependency or configure/compile problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Such behaviour can only be harmful to an otherwise great community. Unrelated support matters should not be turned down based on init system choice.

Well, it is not mainly about what init system one uses, it is about who takes part in "polluting the water supply" (as khayyam calls it) and who does not.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please guys, keep the discussion civil and polite. The systemd camp may well point to several postings here that fits well with the "systemd haters" propaganda.

I certainly don't like systemd either, for reasons that have been well explained by others, but I don't think that it serves the community to let the discussion deteriorate into a hatefest.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leifbk wrote:
Please guys, keep the discussion civil and polite. The systemd camp may well point to several postings here that fits well with the "systemd haters" propaganda.

No worries, Gatsby already is a registered systemd offender
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

leifbk wrote:
Please guys, keep the discussion civil and polite. The systemd camp may well point to several postings here that fits well with the "systemd haters" propaganda.


Civil and polite is good, but sometime the sysd fanbois don't want that, as they are the propaganda pushers
and it serves their purpose to destabilize many threads hoping to get them locked or simply to cause friction.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
leifbk wrote:
Please guys, keep the discussion civil and polite. The systemd camp may well point to several postings here that fits well with the "systemd haters" propaganda.

No worries, Gatsby already is a registered systemd offender


LOL
So what?
Genstorm already is a registered systemd defender. :!:
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Gandi said, an eye for an eye will make everyone blind.

We are all volunteers, its up to us how we spend our time and what we support.
Being in one camp and pointing and laughing at the others in not a good use of anyones time.
This applies equally to editors, desktops, init systems ...
Just smile to yourselves and move on. Its rather like applying for membership of Gentoo Old Timers
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Such behaviour can only be harmful to an otherwise great community.

genstorm ... as it was me that introduced this to the discussion I'll take the liberty to respond in place of Gatsby.

Agreed, its "harmful" to any community when some section of that community behaves unilaterally, but that is exactly what we are seeing wrt to systemd. If "distros [are] to standardize on the same components for the base system" (Lennart) then this too is a unilateral action, one that effects those who do not wish to use systemd. This fact has been consistantly ignored as "the entire issue was framed as though systemd was something that was entirely benign, users could choose it or not ... everyone gets what they want."

Added to this we have seen repeatedly users being faced with the following "[r]eality check. If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is [...] meaningless. They will just have to adapt, even if they don't like it.". This kind of argument completely undermines the contibutions made by users in other areas (like user support), and when their contribution is framed in such a way why should they contribute to such a community?

genstorm wrote:
Unrelated support matters should not be turned down based on init system choice.

Why? We've seen arguments in this thread that state "[i]f you want choise [sic], write your own software and don't expect systemd developers (you know the guys who wrote udev too) to do it for you", so under such circumstances I see no difference between what is being suggested we do, and what I suggest they should do when it comes to supporting their users. I have every respect for others choices, but there is a limit to toleration, such a break in our implicit agreement to act as a community was not caused by me it was an enevitable outcome of systemd entering the tree, and upstream policy.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
As Gandi said, an eye for an eye will make everyone blind.

Neddy ... yes, but this didn't stop him calling for a nation wide boycott of British goods.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
genstorm wrote:
Such behaviour can only be harmful to an otherwise great community.

genstorm ... as it was me that introduced this to the discussion I'll take the liberty to respond in place of Gatsby.

Agreed, its "harmful" to any community when some section of that community behaves unilaterally, but that is exactly what we are seeing wrt to systemd. If "distros [are] to standardize on the same components for the base system" (Lennart) then this too is a unilateral action, one that effects those who do not wish to use systemd. This fact has been consistantly ignored as "the entire issue was framed as though systemd was something that was entirely benign, users could choose it or not ... everyone gets what they want."

Added to this we have seen repeatedly users being faced with the following "[r]eality check. If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is [...] meaningless. They will just have to adapt, even if they don't like it.". This kind of argument completely undermines the contibutions made by users in other areas (like user support), and when their contribution is framed in such a way why should they contribute to such a community?

genstorm wrote:
Unrelated support matters should not be turned down based on init system choice.

Why? We've seen arguments in this thread that state "[i]f you want choise [sic], write your own software and don't expect systemd developers (you know the guys who wrote udev too) to do it for you", so under such circumstances I see no difference between what is being suggested we do, and what I suggest they should do when it comes to supporting their users. I have every respect for others choices, but there is a limit to toleration, such a break in our implicit agreement to act as a community was not caused by me it was an enevitable outcome of systemd entering the tree, and upstream policy.

best ... khay

+1

Thank you, my friend.. :D
As not being a native English speaker, I could not have it expressed better myself.

Regards, Gatsby
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:
LOL
So what?
Genstorm already is a registered systemd defender. :!:

I reject your false claim as you failed to provide any proof. In fact, each of my production systems runs openrc; grow up and stop being an embarrassment to f.g.o

khayyam wrote:
Agreed, its "harmful" to any community when some section of that community behaves unilaterally, but that is exactly what we are seeing wrt to systemd. If "distros [are] to standardize on the same components for the base system" (Lennart) then this too is a unilateral action, one that effects those who do not wish to use systemd. This fact has been consistantly ignored as "the entire issue was framed as though systemd was something that was entirely benign, users could choose it or not ... everyone gets what they want."

Do not mix outside developments with how we react to it inside our community. Most of our users just try to get along with their systems, and I suspect that less than half of them care about their init system except when breakage occurs.

khayyam wrote:
Added to this we have seen repeatedly users being faced with the following "[r]eality check. If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is [...] meaningless. They will just have to adapt, even if they don't like it.". This kind of argument completely undermines the contibutions made by users in other areas (like user support), and when their contribution is framed in such a way why should they contribute to such a community?

Show some sense of sympathy for our maintainers; they are under constant pressure to provide the latest upstream packages for the tree, at the same time facing various demands from various users to keep support for whatever feature or package, when those users quite often do not know the consequences and hardship of such decisions, let alone provide code. When upstream is dead or uncooperative, what else is a maintainer supposed to be doing than legitimately calling for code?

Your opinion implicates you do not look at systemd users as Gentoo users anymore, which is sad. The base system has got nothing to do with the majority of support questions in here, and we as a whole will still benefit from good forum culture in the future, regardless of init system in use, both inside and to the outside world of potential new users.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Gatsby wrote:
LOL
So what?
Genstorm already is a registered systemd defender. :!:

I reject your false claim as you failed to provide any proof. In fact, each of my production systems runs openrc; grow up and stop being an embarrassment to f.g.o

It is proof enough when you show up every time I write something against your beloved Mr. Poettering and speak in his favour.
Grow up yourself and stop being RedHat's/Poettering's 5th column in the Gentoo community.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hurt your feelings, I don't remember you from any particular previous encounter.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:

Show some sense of sympathy for our maintainers; they are under constant pressure to provide the latest upstream packages for the tree, at the same time facing various demands from various users to keep support for whatever feature or package, when those users quite often do not know the consequences and hardship of such decisions, let alone provide code. When upstream is dead or uncooperative, what else is a maintainer supposed to be doing than legitimately calling for code?


I might be more sympathetic to the devs if they weren't intentionally going out of their way to break or declare unsupported systems that have been fine for years purely for political reasons. There was absolutely NO technical reason for the forced abandonment of a separate /usr nor any reason to withhold the patches from openrc supporting as much, but the systemd supporters, led by WilliamH, forced a complacent Council to vote anyway... all because LP didn't want to support a separate /usr and had, at the time, removed support for it from systemd. This decision forced people into using an initramfs, which made their systems less robust and more prone to breakage, and because half the Council supports systemd, nobody even bothered to do any homework. The fact that most of the Council got reelected is an absolute travesty.

The OpenRC camp didn't force the issue AND it provided the requisite patches... so let's not pretend that it's purely an upstream issue.

Quote:

Your opinion implicates you do not look at systemd users as Gentoo users anymore, which is sad. The base system has got nothing to do with the majority of support questions in here, and we as a whole will still benefit from good forum culture in the future, regardless of init system in use, both inside and to the outside world of potential new users.


From my own perspective, because systemd, per its developers' statements, is meant to be the new all inclusive interface that controls everything between the kernel and your apps, I assume that any time someone has systemd installed and is having a problem, it is systemd and it's one sized fits all standardization, haphazard abandonment/reimplementation of its own functionality and arrogant refusal to acknowledge bugs, that is at fault. As such, I ignore pretty much every request for help on a system using systemd unless it is absolutely clear that it isn't systemd at fault. Perhaps if it was just an init system, I could be of help, but because it infects the entire system on intimate levels, my knowledge of how it breaks things is limited and I'm not going to spend dozens of hours per week keeping up with development of a project I don't want anything to do with.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Sorry to hurt your feelings, I don't remember you from any particular previous encounter.


https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7507602.html#7507602
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7586536.html#7586536
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7584346.html#7584346

This may freshen up your memory.

Links fixed. — JRG

THX Mr. Graham. :)
Keep an eye on this genstorm guy. He belongs to RedHat's/Poettering's 5th column in Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatsby wrote:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7507602.html#7507602
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7586536.html#7586536
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7584346.html#7584346

None of your links work? Whatever you try to make me remember here, I'm afraid it probably didn't mean as much to me as it still does to you.

Links fixed. — JRG

Thanks, JRG - as I thought, no substance... ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
khayyam wrote:
Agreed, its "harmful" to any community when some section of that community behaves unilaterally, but that is exactly what we are seeing wrt to systemd. If "distros [are] to standardize on the same components for the base system" (Lennart) then this too is a unilateral action, one that effects those who do not wish to use systemd. This fact has been consistantly ignored as "the entire issue was framed as though systemd was something that was entirely benign, users could choose it or not ... everyone gets what they want."

Do not mix outside developments with how we react to it inside our community.

genstorm ... how can these be separated when upstream's "very strict policy" is to "[...] gently push the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system"? When systemd was made a "choice" what consideration was given to the effects this would inevitably have on users *not* making that choice? That is why I describe it as a "unilateral action", sections of the community made the decision to adopt systemd regardless of what the effects on the rest of the community would be.

genstorm wrote:
khayyam wrote:
Added to this we have seen repeatedly users being faced with the following "[r]eality check. If people don't write code to the contrary, their opinion is [...] meaningless. They will just have to adapt, even if they don't like it.". This kind of argument completely undermines the contributions made by users in other areas (like user support), and when their contribution is framed in such a way why should they contribute to such a community?

Show some sense of sympathy for our maintainers; they are under constant pressure to provide the latest upstream packages for the tree, at the same time facing various demands from various users to keep support for whatever feature or package, when those users quite often do not know the consequences and hardship of such decisions, let alone provide code. When upstream is dead or uncooperative, what else is a maintainer supposed to be doing than legitimately calling for code?

The fact you describe the above as "legitimately calling for code" seems to ignore what follows, that this non-contributing section of the community are dead weight and their "[...] opinion[s are] meaningless [...] [t]hey will just have to adapt, even if they don't like it". As we were discussing this in the context of community, and what can be expected from that community, then the above doesn't seem to be particularly responcive to, or respectfully of, that community. As I said, the entire question of what the effects of systemd adoption would be was ignored, and you seem to suggest that users effected by these decisions should simply overlook the fact and simply "adapt" ... but of course not do anything that might negatively effect the community.

genstorm wrote:
Your opinion implicates you do not look at systemd users as Gentoo users anymore, which is sad. The base system has got nothing to do with the majority of support questions in here, and we as a whole will still benefit from good forum culture in the future, regardless of init system in use, both inside and to the outside world of potential new users.

No, my statements above are simply trying to point out what the repercussions of systemd adoption are, if you want me to play ball and support something that will inevitably effect me negatively, and which will effect the community negatively, then I can only say no, I won't do that. For there to be a community then the implicit agreement to not act unilaterally needs to be respected, if some party violates that agreement then they can not turn around and say I am required to support their actions (or otherwise the compact is disolved).

Yes, the "base system has got nothing to do with the majority of support questions" but it has everything to do with the principles that underscore, facilitate, etc, community ... which is what my point was addressing.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
mv wrote:
We had this experiment already with KDE: Gentoo offered USE=-semantic-desktop for many years, but eventually there was not enough manpower for it.
Not to draw this off topic, but wasn't this an $upstream change?

AFAIK, only more and more kde projects required semantic-desktop to be enabled so that eventually the gentoo KDE team gave up to tackle the involved dependencies.
But it is of course a comparable situation with policykit etc. where also more and more upstream projects will insist on it.
Sorry, mv, but that was just a small stint ages ago:
Code:
 ~ $ eix -I -U semantic-desktop -c | wc -l
20
My workplace desktop runs kde-4.13 with neither semantic-desktop, udisks, upower, polkit nor consolkit. On my laptop, I have no choice, as I need upower and can make good use of the whole pim stuff. But udisks is banned there, too.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd hope to turn down the temperature a bit on the "you're one of those stinking systemd users" namecalling.

It could be that some users might have tried systemd and have sought help. How sure are we that such users have irretrievably gone over to the systemd side? Some may have wanted to stay with Gnome, some may have tried a system or two to find how well it could work, and some may have gone over with full intent to switch everything over to systemd. Are you sure they want to stay there? Some people might have gone with it because they had no way out, some people might had ended up with it by accident but tried to make a go of it, and some may have been experimenting. There might even be people who installed systemd specifically to look for flaws in it. If such a user has a problem on the way to getting systemd set up, do you suppose he'd be likely to advert to the fact that he thinks that the whole idea is awful while trying to solicit help from people who understand systemd well?

The concept of a "right to be forgotten" is deeply flawed and runs against the structure of reality. On the other hand, forgiveness and reconciliation are quite real. I'd hope we'd be able to offer a welcoming hand to the systemd refugee.

I surely don't mean we that we should not refute the loud claims of the systemd proponents. What I do mean is that we should not show hostility to people who simply ask for help or demand a purity test from those who might comment on this thread.

It is quite a fair point, though, that if you think that a user's problem is connected in some way with systemd, you are quite justified in not offering to help. After all, it would be outside your realm of expertise.

It would be out of mine, at any rate. Now if you were one of the "installed systemd to look for flaws in it" crowd, you just might venture to respond...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least the Funtoo guys acknowledged that supporting SystemD would require a separate distro (which was going to be called FLOAM or somesuch :)), would that the devs here would recognize that. And the only reason things were going that way was because Mr. Robbins likes Gnome. :P

At any rate, it seems there's already pushback against SystemD in those quarters, as a dedicated dev over there successfully ripped out all of the hard dependencies on SystemD from Gnome 3.12. :D So all is not lost; as a matter of fact, it would seem that there are alternatives to getting in bed with Mr. Poettering and company--and hard dependencies on SystemD can be mitigated. ;)

As with Yamakuzure, I'm also running KDE without semantic-desktop, usdisks, upower, polkit & consolekit, and am missing very little. Yes, I have to run pm-suspend by hand (on my laptop) and use udevil to mount my USB disks, but overall, I don't mind all that much. :) If I had the time to muck around with it, I would see if I could make udevil function as the automounter for the KDE widget that now depends on udisks2--IIRC, there was a time when it worked with udisks(1), which is what udevil is supposed to be a drop in replacement for.

Keep pushing back, SystemD is not a foregone conclusion yet! :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
I surely don't mean we that we should not refute the loud claims of the systemd proponents. What I do mean is that we should not show hostility to people who simply ask for help or demand a purity test from those who might comment on this thread.

I don't think anyone have hostility with someone because he was using systemd, but if you use it, nobody has any right to complain if nobody help him.
We're all volunteers. I have no contract forcing me to help other here. I help other as it promote Gentoo. For me, helping systemd users is promoting systemd in Gentoo and systemd "one ring" goal, is bad for Gentoo, it's then logic i prefer not answer systemd threads as it's what i think is the best to do.

Nobody can force me help others, and specially not when you ask me to help killing my distro.
I don't care what will be systemd 5 years later, i care Gentoo will still be there. And i care it will be Gentoo, not a redhat sub-distro with a Gentoo tag on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
At least the Funtoo guys acknowledged that supporting SystemD would require a separate distro (which was going to be called FLOAM or somesuch :)), would that the devs here would recognize that. And the only reason things were going that way was because Mr. Robbins likes Gnome. :P

At any rate, it seems there's already pushback against SystemD in those quarters, as a dedicated dev over there successfully ripped out all of the hard dependencies on SystemD from Gnome 3.12. :D So all is not lost; as a matter of fact, it would seem that there are alternatives to getting in bed with Mr. Poettering and company--and hard dependencies on SystemD can be mitigated. ;)

As with Yamakuzure, I'm also running KDE without semantic-desktop, usdisks, upower, polkit & consolekit, and am missing very little. Yes, I have to run pm-suspend by hand (on my laptop) and use udevil to mount my USB disks, but overall, I don't mind all that much. :) If I had the time to muck around with it, I would see if I could make udevil function as the automounter for the KDE widget that now depends on udisks2--IIRC, there was a time when it worked with udisks(1), which is what udevil is supposed to be a drop in replacement for.

Keep pushing back, SystemD is not a foregone conclusion yet! :D


No, udevil has never been a drop-in replacement for UDisks 1.x. A replacement, maybe, but a drop-in replacement, never.
Also, nothing is stopping you from becoming a Gentoo developer and improving our GNOME 3.12+ support for non-systemd systems. Futhermore, it's possible to install GNOME 3.12+ without systemd from Portage as-is:

Code:

$ grep openrc /usr/portage/gnome-*/*/metadata.xml
gnome-base/gnome-settings-daemon/metadata.xml: <flag name="openrc-force">Skip systemd dependency (#480336),
gnome-base/gnome-shell/metadata.xml: <flag name="openrc-force">Skip systemd dependency (#480336),


And you aren't really pushing anything by complaining at the forums. Only meaningful pushing is pushing[1] of the code.

[1] http://git-scm.com/docs/git-push

And I'd like to point out that no offense intended, none, only being realistic.
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1clue
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2361

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
miket wrote:
I surely don't mean we that we should not refute the loud claims of the systemd proponents. What I do mean is that we should not show hostility to people who simply ask for help or demand a purity test from those who might comment on this thread.

I don't think anyone have hostility with someone because he was using systemd, but if you use it, nobody has any right to complain if nobody help him.
We're all volunteers. I have no contract forcing me to help other here. I help other as it promote Gentoo. For me, helping systemd users is promoting systemd in Gentoo and systemd "one ring" goal, is bad for Gentoo, it's then logic i prefer not answer systemd threads as it's what i think is the best to do.

Nobody can force me help others, and specially not when you ask me to help killing my distro.
I don't care what will be systemd 5 years later, i care Gentoo will still be there. And i care it will be Gentoo, not a redhat sub-distro with a Gentoo tag on it.


While I'm most definitely not a systemd proponent, I take issue with the tone of this post and others like it.

If you're not going to help, then you shouldn't post to that topic at all, or if systemd (or whatever topic) enters the mix after you've already posted, you should say you don't use it and then stop posting things related to the disliked package or any of the alternatives, unless alternatives are being discussed.

This goes for any topic you don't have direct experience on.
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
miket wrote:
I surely don't mean we that we should not refute the loud claims of the systemd proponents. What I do mean is that we should not show hostility to people who simply ask for help or demand a purity test from those who might comment on this thread.

I don't think anyone have hostility with someone because he was using systemd, but if you use it, nobody has any right to complain if nobody help him.

Precisely. I'll help anyone if I can, and if i can't, I stay out of the thread, same as on IRC: "if no-one can help, no-one will answer."
Quote:
We're all volunteers. I have no contract forcing me to help other here. I help other as it promote Gentoo. For me, helping systemd users is promoting systemd in Gentoo and systemd "one ring" goal, is bad for Gentoo, it's then logic i prefer not answer systemd threads as it's what i think is the best to do.

Nobody can force me help others, and specially not when you ask me to help killing my distro.
I don't care what will be systemd 5 years later, i care Gentoo will still be there. And i care it will be Gentoo, not a redhat sub-distro with a Gentoo tag on it.

I couldn't agree more. I for one am not here so the effort I put into helping others with Gentoo, so they can help me, is simply coopted by a multibillion-dollar subsidiary of an energy-giant, whose biggest customer is the US DoD/NSA, followed by other large corporations seeking to monetise users (or "consumers") as income-streams.
1clue wrote:
While I'm most definitely not a systemd proponent, I take issue with the tone of this post and others like it.

If you're not going to help, then you shouldn't post to that topic at all, or if systemd (or whatever topic) enters the mix after you've already posted, you should say you don't use it and then stop posting things related to the disliked package or any of the alternatives, unless alternatives are being discussed.

This goes for any topic you don't have direct experience on.

What on Earth gave you the impression that's not what he does? You're assuming that he goes around trolling, instead of simply ignoring certain threads.

The context was people not helping when systemd is involved, usually because they simply have nfc what interactions it's causing, which is why they don't run it. If they state in a thread like this that they don't help because of systemd, that's their right. They're even more of volunteers than a developer who's signed up to be one.

Frankly I take issue with both the tone of your post, and the way you've built a strawman to take that tone in the first place.
_________________
creaker wrote:
systemd. It is a really ass pain

update - "a most excellent portage wrapper"

#friendly-coders -- We're still here for you™ ;)
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