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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: xdg-utils-1.1.0_rc2 requires a web browser?! Reply with quote

Really, xdg-utils-1.1.0_rc2 requires a web browser to compile man pages? (Bugzilla)

They can't use sgml or other standard tools?

This is the first version of xdg-utils with this requirement -- how did previous versions generate their man pages?

Oh, and why does cups require xdg-utils in the first place? Because of a cups.desktop, of course (Linux From Scratch)!

The workaround here is to unset "X" for cups. But thanks, upstream, for a crappy dependency and a silly layering violation.

/RANT
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: xdg-utils-1.1.0_rc2 requires a web browser?! Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
Really, xdg-utils-1.1.0_rc2 requires a web browser to compile man pages? (Bugzilla)

They can't use sgml or other standard tools?


Well, app-text/xmlto is standard, and it's app-text/xmlto which requires one of links, lynx or w3m for conversion. You can `emerge --depclean` or straight up `emerge -C` the browser
after emerging x11-misc/xdg-utils since it's only a DEPEND, not RDEPEND.
Ask yourself, why does a unemergable buildtime -only dependency bothers you so much?

Hypnos wrote:

This is the first version of xdg-utils with this requirement -- how did previous versions generate their man pages?


This is first version in a long time done by upstream and they chose to not include pregenerated manpages in the tarball. Where as before when I created the "_rc1_p2014xxxx" tarball,
I included the pregenerated manpages in it.

Hypnos wrote:

Oh, and why does cups require xdg-utils in the first place? Because of a cups.desktop, of course (Linux From Scratch)!

The workaround here is to unset "X" for cups. But thanks, upstream, for a crappy dependency and a silly layering violation.


Minor build time dep that shouldn't bother anyone any more than eg. dev-util/intltool, or dev-perl/XML-Parser, or such, since it can be depcleaned after emerge.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen,

Thanks for your reply. I'm confused by some things:

1) Why is it that xdg-utils has the dependency on links (or equivalent), not xmlto?

2) Why are you comparing intltool and XML-Parser to a web browser? Not just by lines of code, but libraries pulled in and network capabilities? Should /bin/ls depend on Chrome if it's expedient for building documentation?

3) Should users need to vet build-time dependencies and remove undesirable ones? Does this not signify a deeper design problem?
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
ssuominen,

1) Why is it that xdg-utils has the dependency on links (or equivalent), not xmlto?


It does have a dependency to app-text/xmlto, but also links/lynx/w3m because of the targeted use of xmlto format plugins:

Code:

$ qlist xmlto | xargs grep installing
/usr/share/xmlto/format/xhtml1/txt:    echo >&2 "Try either installing text webbrowser(lynx/w3m/links) or use option --with-fop"
/usr/share/xmlto/format/docbook/txt:    echo >&2 "Try either installing text web browser(lynx/w3m/links) or use option --with-fop"


It's all xmlto currently supports, since --with-fop is still unstable, and even if it worked, it would bring in Java, dev-java/fop, so presumably the smaller browsers are still better for Gentoo's use of xmlto in xdg-utils.

Hypnos wrote:
3) Should users need to vet build-time dependencies and remove undesirable ones? Does this not signify a deeper design problem?


No, but the point is that you can if you want. And you seem to want, otherwise you wouldn't have raised this topic in the first place.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be sure, USE="-doc" and this can be avoid ?
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Just to be sure, USE="-doc" and this can be avoid ?

For many packages yes, but in my case I had to set USE="-X" since cups was pulling it in to make the .desktop file.

***

ssuominen,

Thanks for the explanation. This is really crap software engineering by upstream: cups needs xdg-utils to build a piss-ant .desktop file, and piss-ant xdg-utils needs either Java or a web-browser just to build its documentation.

Unreal.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos ...

similarly, net-analyzer/wireshark requires xdg-utils (bug 423839) for no other reason than its used to 'auto-detect' the browser for displaying "help". It works perfectly well without xdg-utils, and there is no *real* reason that it is a dependency. If need be a user can Edit => Preferences and select the browser, its that simple.

Wireshark is a "professional" network analysis tool so this is not an issue of preventing some novice user from not being able to access the help, its simply a case of adding additional dependencies so that the XDG specification is shimmed in (whether you want, or need it, or not).

The way I manage xdg-utils is to have it masked and in package.provided, and maintain those packages that have it as a dependency in PORTDIR_OVERLAY ... there is no other way, developers (mostly) don't seem to give a damn about adding spurious dependencies.

best ... khay
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to get worked up just because of some buildtime -only deps, period.
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
No need to get worked up just because of some buildtime -only deps, period.

I disagree:

1) Build deps increase emerge time
2) Undesirable build deps (e.g. for security reasons) need human intervention to remove
3) Build deps need to be re-emerged when upgrading the dependent package (see #1)

In other words, poor engineering leads to wasted resources on the part of the user.
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ssuominen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Just to be sure, USE="-doc" and this can be avoid ?


Per long standing (and valid) policy, manpages are not optional, and if upstream fails to ship pregenerated manpages, those are either built during the compile (like done now in xdg-utils) or built by the maintainer into a separate tarball from which they can be
redistributed in cases like avoiding circular dependencies, however there is no such special circurmsctances here.

I've already mailed upstream their tarball is missing manpages, so I expect -rc3 to solve this in the future, if they heed my mail:

http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77808

(Opened a bug so that they don't forget.)
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for notifying upstream! We'll see if they act on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want to complain about useless build deps, cups *itself* is a build dep for icedtea — even with USE="-cups" on that! :lol:
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Hypnos
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
If you want to complain about useless build deps, cups *itself* is a build dep for icedtea — even with USE="-cups" on that! :lol:

Useless indeed, though due to a different kind of laziness.
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