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milomouse
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: anti-systemd faction, a boon to Gentoo? Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
TheLexx wrote:
What do you think? Do you think there should be a more active campaign to promote Gentoo to the systemd haters?


Go one step further, and sell it as a meta distribution providing choice; where what you suggest here is an example, perhaps one of multiple. This gives the impression that we provide choice, instead of that we hate systemd; that will interest a wider audience.


That idea is what attracted me to make the change to Gentoo; the *maintained* choice to use what software you want for what role. I saw Gentoo as a flexible distro that allowed the user to fine-tune it into anything they wanted/needed. Through the Gentoo Way I saw the possibility that these choices can even be installed alongside each other and toggled with `eselect` if their installation allow for it. This, to me, was the selling factor over for example a distro who simply provided a non-systemd setup. I do not see Gentoo as "anti" anything -- I saw it then and see it now as a neutral contender of freedom.

While I am disappointed to see a single software entity take over any distro via the powers of upstream, I am glad that it forced my hand and I was able to read further about Gentoo and ultimately make the change. After USE'ing it for a while I cannot see how ignorantly I endured any other method. I am now at the point where I feel comfortable with my system and no longer harbor any major resentment toward these undesired software. This does not mean I like what is happening but it does allow for some peace of mind since I am not having to deal with it on a daily basis, instead I can gather myself and participate in debate of my own accord.


Last edited by milomouse on Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
The only thing that's an example of is LP's trolling skills and quite frankly childish behavior.

Just my opinion, of course.


+10 !

That said, the main issues with systemd are 3:

1) It is a fast moving software that will remain of beta quality during years. It also depend on the rewrite of the kernel cgroups, and as long this rewrite is not done, it is no hope systemd can be anything else than a beta quality software. And they are pushing it like if it was stable.

2) What was sell as an init system is already a kitchen sink implementing a lot of stuffs that have nothing to do with an init system, some kind of L.P..tm OS. A perfect example of that is the planned integration of console-kit, which will not make it to become lighter, simpler or more stable. 1) + 2) imply that only full-time paid developers can really understand it and stay in touch with the constant and fast evolution of a so complex beta software.

3) It is implementing policies instead of providing means to make policies, which make it a bigger problem than the one it was intended to solve. And I am afraid the integration of console-kit will make this issue to become more apparent.

My conclusion is that I am not in a hurry to adopt it, and that time will tell us if systemd will do like hal or not.

For the binary distributions, the choice they face with systemd is simple. Gnome depend on it, and now some parts of kde depend on it. That imply they can:

1) easy choice 1, they don't provide systemd, gnome and kde.
2) easy choice 2, they provide systemd, gnome and kde.
3) the hard way, they don't provide systemd and do all the hard work to make gnome and kde to work without systemd.

Now, gentoo is about choice, and any of us is free to choose if he/she want or not systemd, gnome, kde or whatever. And that's just fine for me, and I hope for most gentoo users as well. That imply we must stay united to promote that freedom of choice, especially when peoples behind systemd are thinking free software was never about freedom of choice and never will be. We must look at systemd with a little distance, as an alternative among other softwares, and stay united and awaken because the real issue behind systemd is freedom of choice.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...round and round we go again...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK let's not get into the pros and cons of systemd again, genstorm is right.

That's not what this thread is about, and there's no point shouting past each other in the hope that someone new to the debate will agree with you. They can read all the arguments ad nauseam in several other threads, and mailing-lists.

The question simply is: given that some people do seem to want to avoid it, does it make sense for Gentoo to let them know we're here, and a viable option for them?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

id like to see stage3's for systemd, openrc, & busybox going. and yes it is that thread again..... :evil:
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, when discussing on the systemd-devel list, I was tell that linux was never and never will be about freedom of choice and redirected to that site : http://islinuxaboutchoice.com/

Nobody on the list made an objection. That list, as whois show it, is run by that guy https://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ which is also a member of Gnome direction (according to his Linkedin profile).

I understand very well that the freedom of the developers and of the users can collide sometime. But what we can see is that some projects which are interconnected are leading a way which imply on the long run for a lot of other projects, you follow our way or you will die. I also think developers, especially on Linux where many developers are free time developers, have other things to do than to waste their free time to redo something that was broken because of an init system upgrade. No software should depend on an init system, and the path Gnome and kde are leading is silly. I precise I know some old GNU/Linux developers that have already moved, or are planing to move to other OS like mac and freebsd.

Also, the coming move to wayland will break a lot of softwares, that because X and its extensions are just too complicated to hope that someone will do a complete compatibility layer. The result will be a mess like the shift from kde3 to kde4, with a lot of lost for ever softwares (free time developers have other things to do than to rewrite what many of them consider as the less interesting part of their software, the GUI) and a lot of software with less features than their previous versions. And only half of the job is done in wayland, the toolkit is not integrated into it. And I don't buy the argument like what it is not efficient on a multiprocessor to have the toolkit integrated into the wm, because on the same machine, the AROS version (a free amiga OS clone with integrated toolkit into the wm-server) of the Gimp start at least 5 times faster than its linux version. The reality is that linux is becoming more and more a kitchen sink, and that systemd is the perfect example of that.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
The question simply is: ...

No! There's no question! Only answers :
The answer to the question : What is Gentoo !

Gentoo is portage + tree + doc + community.

No more, no less !

From there I deduce that the only question is for non gentoo users and can be worded :

Is the solution I am looking for in portage's tree and documented and real help available from the community ?

Yes ? => Jump !
No ? => Keep away !

That's the way I walked from FreeBSD to Gentoo.
Oh... and that is also the way I'll walk before... switching back !
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
OK let's not get into the pros and cons of systemd again, genstorm is right.

That's not what this thread is about, and there's no point shouting past each other in the hope that someone new to the debate will agree with you. They can read all the arguments ad nauseam in several other threads, and mailing-lists.

The question simply is: given that some people do seem to want to avoid it, does it make sense for Gentoo to let them know we're here, and a viable option for them?


I think you are right. For developers, gentoo is the best distribution I know. And for user, it give a freedom of choice that is greater than with any other distro, and with the systemd/kde/gnome move, that difference will grow.

Another question is how long it will be possible to not use systemd, and here only the time will tell us if it will stay or end like hall.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:

Gentoo is portage + tree + doc + community.

No more, no less !


very well put, stripped down to root elements. we need some installer scripts to start managing init/boot loader options.... to the point of booting shell....
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 steveL
I feel kind of relieved the fight calmed. Perhaps Paul comes back then ...

As successful advertisement pro Gentoo is pro choice: Please don't hide your pro choice contributions behind any kind of anti-systemd title. Though perhaps you could introduce a common keyword (*) advertising the new threads to interested people. (Which there are!)

PS(*): To find easily something like
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-959822-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-0.html
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Team,

Gentoo provides choice because of the way its developed, rather than Gentoo is developed to provide choice.
The distinction is important.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
As successful advertisement pro Gentoo is pro choice: Please don't hide your pro choice contributions behind any kind of anti-systemd title.

Hmm you're ignoring two major points:
1) Like it or not, some people don't want systemd. They have their reasons and they are just as valid for them, as your reasons for choosing systemd are for you. So it's disingenuous to say we cannot reach out to them, simply for the sake of political correctness.

While I agree we should s/systemd/anything/ as above, equally we should not be afraid of telling people who don't want systemd that Gentoo still supports them. And this thread is about them, not about promoting Gentoo more broadly. If you want a thread on that, by all means start one, or more usefully email pr@gentoo.org and see about helping out.

2) systemd upstream and proponents explicitly reject the "Linux is about choice" ideal of Free software.

As a from-source distro, Gentoo simply has to be able to do things in the "traditional" manner, since the "old" setup is required to build the "new" (same as the old One True Way.)

edit: removed unhelpful rant.


Last edited by steveL on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Team,

Gentoo provides choice because of the way its developed, rather than Gentoo is developed to provide choice.
The distinction is important.


Not really something i want discuss in that thread to not deviate, but it's true, and this is a weakness.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to disagree with you Neddy. Drobbins' statements are pretty unequivocal imo.

And I'd say it's the other way round: because GNU is about choice, Gentoo is developed the way it is: piecemeal, with many different components that can be swapped out, as once upon a time it was GNU components that needed to be swapped in.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Team,

Gentoo provides choice because of the way its developed, rather than Gentoo is developed to provide choice.
The distinction is important.


Sorry do deviant the topic ... but i think Neddy hitted the nail in the head.

Maybe there should be a topic about this, as i feel its the root of it all.

I myself see it as Neddy mentions. Choice is the feature of Gentoo's system. Because it is the best system.
I love my choice and my freedom, but i choose accordingly to what i like, not only to be different.

That being said, for example, I love Gentoo because i CAN install openrc, systemd, etc etc etc , but i wouldnt love it any less if i could not ( because of lack of devs or something ).

What i do have a problem is when politics say that i cannot ... that i do have a problem.

I didnt care any less when there was no gnome 3.8 or 3.10 on gentoo.

The way i see it : we should have a very good system and powerfull , that would allow to make choice... but we should not make choices available just to make them.

I like that there is vim and emacs, kde and gnome, qt and gtk, wayland and mir, openrc and systemd/upstart, etc etc etc...

But if there was only vim, and nobody wanted emacs ... i dont think we should do an emacs so that we have "choice".

This is a touchy subject... and i hope i have expressed myself correctly : i in no way mean that choice should be removed. But i love portage because it is powerfull to allow me choices, not because it has alot of choices.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
Gentoo provides choice because of the way its developed, rather than Gentoo is developed to provide choice. The distinction is important.

... it's true, and this is a weakness.
It is a strongness pro choice , because it is something not at will.
Thanx NeddySeagoon pointing that out. Didn't know.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS: I also absolutly hate when i read Gentoo is great for learning Linux.

Gentoo is not a "learning" distro ... not a "choicing" distro ...

Gentoo is the best distro in itself... that it promotes learning and choice, its a feature, but its not the goal of the Distro ( at least i hope not )
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
OK let's not get into the pros and cons of systemd again, genstorm is right.

That's not what this thread is about, and there's no point shouting past each other in the hope that someone new to the debate will agree with you. They can read all the arguments ad nauseam in several other threads, and mailing-lists.

+1
full ack to this one older post again. Seems to me steveL forgot what he said. Because:
steveL wrote:
The question simply is: given that some people do seem to want to avoid it, does it make sense for Gentoo to let them know we're here, and a viable option for them?

An attracting option is not seen behind any of "anti-systemd". You want to advertise the better option:
Pro-something
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
PS: I also absolutly hate when i read Gentoo is great for learning Linux.

That's really just a semantics issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
yagami wrote:
PS: I also absolutly hate when i read Gentoo is great for learning Linux.

That's really just a semantics issue.


Not really ... its in a sense : "Use gentoo for learning/academic but then use a *real* distro like Ubuntu for usage"...

( exchange Ubuntu for any other distro )
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich: you're right, I'm sorry, I went off on one.

If it's ok, I've edited the post to remove the rant.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
genstorm wrote:
yagami wrote:
PS: I also absolutly hate when i read Gentoo is great for learning Linux.

That's really just a semantics issue.


Not really ... its in a sense : "Use gentoo for learning/academic but then use a *real* distro like Ubuntu for usage"...

( exchange Ubuntu for any other distro )
Not really ... If you learn via gentoo, you'll never want a binary distro ever again. Well, at least that's the fate of many here. Give me any distribution and I'll need less then ten minutes to find the first dozen reasons for throwing it off the machine and for installing gentoo on it at once. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
ulenrich: you're right, I'm sorry, I went off on one.

If it's ok, I've edited the post to remove the rant.
@steveL, thank you for the step back of yours.
I really appreciate. We all should acknowledge the Gentoo user forums are not the battlefield. Openrc users can expect me as a systemd user pro choice: I really really feel lucky I am able to boot with openrc in the case my systemd installation produces a problematic boot I don't understand. I then simply can test with the other option.

Also I have and I will advice any newcomer, who claims he wants to learn Linux by using Gentoo, he should begin with openrc. It is a transparent init system I was stunned about its simplicity, when I came from Debian sysv-insserv mess.

@steveL, a year ago you said the main horrible bad of systemd is its vertical_integration against all proven unix principles. Also I answered it may well be exactly this integration what application developers desire and what makes systemd sexy to them, it was the strong argument against systemd - as it is today even more: kdbus coming with all of the resulting security issues. Every systemd user should be happy Gentoo is providing the choice! The new Gentoo Mate ebuilds are attracting me to install another Gentoo openrc partition.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
yagami wrote:
genstorm wrote:
yagami wrote:
PS: I also absolutly hate when i read Gentoo is great for learning Linux.

That's really just a semantics issue.


Not really ... its in a sense : "Use gentoo for learning/academic but then use a *real* distro like Ubuntu for usage"...

( exchange Ubuntu for any other distro )
Not really ... If you learn via gentoo, you'll never want a binary distro ever again. Well, at least that's the fate of many here. Give me any distribution and I'll need less then ten minutes to find the first dozen reasons for throwing it off the machine and for installing gentoo on it at once. ;)


yes, i know ... but that is not how Gentoo comes off to many people. And that is the perception i was talking about.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think most peoples that don't know gentoo are thinking it is a distribution for specialists and hackers.

It is why we must emphasis on its documentation and community which make possible even for a newbie to learn GNU/Linux using Gentoo. And for experimented users to find easily their way.
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