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TheLexx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: anti-systemd faction, a boon to Gentoo? Reply with quote

I have never been into proselytizing for the Gentoo Linux Distro. For one thing, I would only recommend Gentoo to people that were heavily into Linux, and were willing spend the time to get under the hood. Only people who really give a crap about happens after you hit the ENTER key, would make good mach for Gentoo. Here recently, when looking around many Linux message boards, I have noticed many people complaining about "all" distros are making systemd a requirement. People are upset because there is not even an option to run without systemd. From what I've heard, even Arch Linux is planning on making systemd a requirement.

I responded to one or two of those messages, pointing out that Gentoo does offer a choice in init systems. It seems that the many people disappointed with systemd would be a good match for Gentoo Linux, because they do give a flying-rat's-ass about what is going on under-the-hood. I would guess that, many but not all would be willing to put it the extra effort that running a Gentoo system requires. I want Gentoo to be a growing community, because with an expanded user-base comes more bug-fixes and more well-tested packages.

I think we could turn this situation to our advantage by recruiting these disaffected people into the Gentoo community. I'm not wanting to turn the Gentoo community into a bunch of anti-systemd curmudgeons, but it seams that we already have an anti-systemd faction within Gentoo. As long as every one here understands that there is the OpenRC/systemd option, then the members of the Gentoo community should all be able to get along.

What do you think? Do you think there should be a more active campaign to promote Gentoo to the systemd haters?


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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you mean, "boon".

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd is a requirement for arch linux. yes, i think we should prostitute out gentoo to the systemd haters. i think we should cater to busybox, runit, and s6 init systems also. i think we should chop down the handbook into sutras, and make the verbose explanations to things available instead of a mandatory BS swamp to wade through. after reading the hand book 3-4 times it becomes a chore instead of a joy. i think we should get an eselect init going, canned kernel(debian/ubuntu kernel?,) and then rewrite the book into a highly efficient install system.
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TheLexx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I think you mean, "boon".

Google "economic boon" -> About 168,000 results
Google "economic boom" -> About 830,000 results

It would appear that using popular English, both would be acceptable. However maybe the word "boon" is more descriptive and has a narrower meaning. Therefor I will change the heading.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLexx wrote:
John R. Graham wrote:
I think you mean, "boon".

Google "economic boon" -> About 168,000 results
Google "economic boom" -> About 830,000 results

It would appear that using popular English, both would be acceptable. However maybe the word "boon" is more descriptive and has a narrower meaning. Therefor I will change the heading.

nop, boon is the correct usage here: Boon because it is benefiting gentoo adoption
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
nop, boon is the correct usage here: Boon because it is benefiting gentoo adoption

How 'bout both? A boon to Gentoo, a boom for systemd. (There are lots of reasons why systemd would seem to be vulnerable to go "boom" all by itself; the thing for those of us in Gentoo who avoid systemd is to get away from what might go boom.)

So contrary to what might say even in this thread, the very fact that Gentoo people are still open to multiple ways of doing init systems and device managers means that we are not closed off to other ideas.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me pets the vizsla and says boondoggle, not boon... that's right were tooting our own horns.... being pro choice in regards to init is a good move, while anti systemd is a bad one. to the point of official suppression that is. if you want to dork your system up, please, explore and document....
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
being pro choice in regards to init is a good move, while anti systemd is a bad one. to the point of official suppression that is. if you want to dork your system up, please, explore and document....

Please explain wtf that means. It reads like random phrases stuck together.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:52 am    Post subject: Re: anti-systemd faction, a boon to Gentoo? Reply with quote

TheLexx wrote:
What do you think? Do you think there should be a more active campaign to promote Gentoo to the systemd haters?

Let them come to us ;-)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been very good at framing a statement, and other skills useful for influencing people.

So I'll some adjustments on my original message. I don't think we should say "Hay all you people that hate systemd, come on over to Gentoo, because we think that systemd sucks too!!". No, instead we should say something like the this, "Do you hate being forced to use systemd? You should join Gentoo, because we are committed to giving users choice". We can then talk about choices such as OpenRC, runit, eudev and others.

steveL wrote:
Let them come to us ;-)


It would be nice to assume that people dissatisfied with being forced to use systemd would be able to find Gentoo on there own. However, one of the side effects of Gentoo being at 39th on Distrowatch's list, is that it may not be the first distro that the dissatisfied look into on a quest to find a new distro. That is why I would suggest giving them I few bread crumbs to lead them towards us.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess this last update on your statement, TheLexx, nailed it. Nothing is gained if we accumulate hatred. It is not systemd (or the person(s) behind it), but the lack of choice that matters.

And for your name, I now need pattern. :twisted:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anything need to be done : google bots and LP are doing the work.
And (can't remember its name, but i think it's mandriva) there's a binary distro already that fill that purpose ; a more natural choice for binary distro users.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The worst thing that can come out of this is Gentoo is labeled as anti-Sysd. Remeber what is posted here is reflects on Gentoo as a whole and if someone wants to take a snippit and use it in some PR stunt against Gentoo, they will

https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/62avVTyYxaY

PERFECT EXAMPLE!

Gentoo does not need bad PR, does not need highly vocal, highly passionate, vitriolic throwing, logical fallacy leveraging posts that will be used against Gentoo.
Gentoo should be shown to be a distro of user flexibility NOT "noSysD"
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that's an example of is LP's trolling skills and quite frankly childish behavior.

Just my opinion, of course.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib appears to be stating we should live in fear of those who can propagandise better than we.

I'd rather make sure I can keep running my machines how I want, and ignore the hype.

I certainly don't want to make computing decisions based on fear of fashion.

Naib wrote:
The worst thing that can come out of this is Gentoo is labeled as anti-Sysd. Remeber what is posted here is reflects on Gentoo as a whole and if someone wants to take a snippit and use it in some PR stunt against Gentoo, they will

Absolutely lame, Naib, imo.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLexx wrote:
steveL wrote:
Let them come to us ;-)

It would be nice to assume that people dissatisfied with being forced to use systemd would be able to find Gentoo on there own. However, one of the side effects of Gentoo being at 39th on Distrowatch's list, is that it may not be the first distro that the dissatisfied look into on a quest to find a new distro. That is why I would suggest giving them I few bread crumbs to lead them towards us.

Fair enough: though to a certain extent I'm quite happy with the userbase we have, and further I like the fact that Gentoo users have self-selected to get here. It takes a certain amount of effort to learn Gentoo, but it is ofc effort that rewards in that you learn the basis of all Linux distros, since you are as close to the source as you want to be. Finding it in the first place is the most basic step. Typically people are able to look around and find other distros, and if they aren't then they really aren't going to do well with a Gentoo install, which requires you to be proactive about finding information.
TheLexx wrote:
"Do you hate being forced to use systemd? You should join Gentoo, because we are committed to giving users choice". We can then talk about choices such as OpenRC, runit, eudev and others.

Makes sense. I'd s/systemd/anything/ since that is the truth, and further it means we won't be accused of systemd-bashing. While I don't give a damn what some idiot says, and will happily tell anyone if I think their statements are crap, the less hassle the better.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
The worst thing that can come out of this is Gentoo is labeled as anti-Sysd. Remeber what is posted here is reflects on Gentoo as a whole
[snip]
Gentoo does not need bad PR, does not need highly vocal, highly passionate, vitriolic throwing, logical fallacy leveraging posts that will be used against Gentoo. Gentoo should be shown to be a distro of user flexibility NOT "noSysD"


Here is where I'm going to disagree with you on the details. If you are paralyzed into inaction, because you are afraid that anything you say will alienate you to the wider community, that you are doomed to obscurity. I do agree with you that, I don't want to see a bunch of Gentoo zealots go off half-cocked saying, "Gentoo is Linux's only hope from being subverted by the growing darkness known as systemd.". Because that sort of thing could create an image that Gentoo if full of nut cases.

What we need to do is, create a well polished message about how Gentoo is committed to user choice. We should explain how uedev is a commitment to creating a dev filesystem that is not dependent on any one single init system. If we wish to move this forward, then we need to create a landing page where we can direct people to. The landing page would be proof-read by multiple people. The landing page would expounds the virtues of having multiple init systems, it would reiterate the lesions demonstrated in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". The Landing page also needs to be realistic in the fact that using a Gentoo system is a bit more work than most binary distros. It should talk about what you will need to do to prepare for a Gentoo install.

krinn wrote:
(can't remember its name, but i think it's mandriva) there's a binary distro already that fill that purpose ; a more natural choice for binary distro users.


I do think that having a binary distro that uses an alternative to systemd is a good thing. However, I would suggest that many of the people that actually worry about systemd could be ready to move from a binary distro to a source based distro (that gives it users more freedom). Binary distros are good for getting your system up and running quickly. I think that many of the people who want to stick with binary distros are not as interested in the systemd debate. I would say, I could only guess at what percentage of people who are dissatisfied with being forced into systemd would be willing to go the extra mile and move to a source based distro.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLexx wrote:
Naib wrote:
The worst thing that can come out of this is Gentoo is labeled as anti-Sysd. Remeber what is posted here is reflects on Gentoo as a whole
[snip]
Gentoo does not need bad PR, does not need highly vocal, highly passionate, vitriolic throwing, logical fallacy leveraging posts that will be used against Gentoo. Gentoo should be shown to be a distro of user flexibility NOT "noSysD"


Here is where I'm going to disagree with you on the details. If you are paralyzed into inaction, because you are afraid that anything you say will alienate you to the wider community, that you are doomed to obscurity. I do agree with you that, I don't want to see a bunch of Gentoo zealots go off half-cocked saying, "Gentoo is Linux's only hope from being subverted by the growing darkness known as systemd.". Because that sort of thing could create an image that Gentoo if full of nut cases.

What we need to do is, create a well polished message about how Gentoo is committed to user choice. We should explain how uedev is a commitment to creating a dev filesystem that is not dependent on any one single init system. If we wish to move this forward, then we need to create a landing page where we can direct people to. The landing page would be proof-read by multiple people. The landing page would expounds the virtues of having multiple init systems, it would reiterate the lesions demonstrated in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". The Landing page also needs to be realistic in the fact that using a Gentoo system is a bit more work than most binary distros. It should talk about what you will need to do to prepare for a Gentoo install.

krinn wrote:
(can't remember its name, but i think it's mandriva) there's a binary distro already that fill that purpose ; a more natural choice for binary distro users.


I do think that having a binary distro that uses an alternative to systemd is a good thing. However, I would suggest that many of the people that actually worry about systemd could be ready to move from a binary distro to a source based distro (that gives it users more freedom). Binary distros are good for getting your system up and running quickly. I think that many of the people who want to stick with binary distros are not as interested in the systemd debate. I would say, I could only guess at what percentage of people who are dissatisfied with being forced into systemd would be willing to go the extra mile and move to a source based distro.
when did I say do nothing. I fully agree with you, a clear message, a clear mission statement.
My point is right now there are a number of discussion surrounding Gentoo and sysd and the quality, the style, the debate style used by a vocal few are quite frankly embarrassing and non-constructive and seem to centre around discrediting the poster rather than its content.

There have been some uncooperative relations in the past with upstream projects (bmpx comes to mind, so does paludis). Do we really want to come across to upstream sysd (because like it or not its here and as long as Gentoo chooses to support it then some repor is needed) as a bunch of zealots or counter their stance, their rationale (as well as back Gentoo's userchoice aspect)

I know I wouldn't want to interface with those that rely on and hominem and misrepresentation as well as hyperboles
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We don't want to attract anti anything. Anti is a divisive force any we should not encourage division within Gentoo.
We need to attract users and deves to Gentoo for what it is, not because it can be used a a vehical against something.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not anti-<any one package>

I suppose if anything I'm anti having things on my system (locations of files, etc) changed willy-nilly
because some dev decides that my system should resemble his. It doesn't matter the software.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:09 am    Post subject: Re: anti-systemd faction, a boon to Gentoo? Reply with quote

TheLexx wrote:
What do you think? Do you think there should be a more active campaign to promote Gentoo to the systemd haters?


Go one step further, and sell it as a meta distribution providing choice; where what you suggest here is an example, perhaps one of multiple. This gives the impression that we provide choice, instead of that we hate systemd; that will interest a wider audience.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: anti-systemd faction, a boon to Gentoo? Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
TheLexx wrote:
What do you think? Do you think there should be a more active campaign to promote Gentoo to the systemd haters?


Go one step further, and sell it as a meta distribution providing choice; where what you suggest here is an example, perhaps one of multiple. This gives the impression that we provide choice, instead of that we hate systemd; that will interest a wider audience.


I have calmed down quite a bit wrt Gentoo after seeing statements like this out of you and others. When it first hit last November, and the way it hit, made me feel like I was getting steamrolled, as did the first rounds of subsequent discussion in the forums. Personally I feel that all of the "Forum Fury" has actually been useful, because there seems to be better-voiced commitment to the fact that Gentoo is about choice, and we are going to retain our ability to choose.

We just had town meeting day yesterday, and in a neighboring community several gun-related initiatives were on the ballot. Driving through town we saw PILES of signs, both for and against those initiatives. I've said this before, so pardon me for repeating it. For me, computing is political. I'm not quite RMS about it, but I'm off in that direction. So I'm a bit of a "cold dead hands" kind, wrt this stuff, choice, how I administer my computers, etc. Handle your own computers your own way. As long as they're not keeping track of my money or information, I'll keep my nose out of your business. Please do the same for me.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
The worst thing that can come out of this is Gentoo is labeled as anti-Sysd. Remeber what is posted here is reflects on Gentoo as a whole and if someone wants to take a snippit and use it in some PR stunt against Gentoo, they will


Gentoo is not anti-systemd, or anti-anything except having a specific tool shoved down our throats,
If there are people out there that don't like having systemd forced down their throat, then maybe they belong here.

Gentoo is about choice, it always has been - and hopefully always will be.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
We don't want to attract anti anything. Anti is a divisive force any we should not encourage division within Gentoo.
We need to attract users and deves to Gentoo for what it is, not because it can be used a a vehical against something.


Yes, I agree with you 100%, we need pro' people not anti' people. I remember reading an interview with Linus Torvalds around the turn of the century. In the interview, Linus was asked if he made Linux as an anti-Microsoft project. His answer went something like this. No, it in not anti-Microsoft, Linux is a project to create something useful. If your motivation is anti-Microsoft, all you will have is negative feelings that are non-productive. You need a positive attitude to build something productive.

That being said, I must admit, I was very anti-Microsoft when I first started using Linux. I was rabidly foaming-at-the-mouth full of vitriol anti-Microsoft. Many years before, I had made a firm life-long commitment to Commodore computers. I decided that the Amiga line was the end-all-be-all answer to personal computing. When Commodore International went bankrupt in 1994 I was dumbfounded, Like someone who had watched there entire town wash-away in a flood. I needed something to lash-out against, and Microsoft was that thing.

I tried Apple, but found it unsatisfying. Then in 1998 I moved to Linux. Once I found Linux, I was able to concentrate on productive things I could build with Linux, and soon, I did not care what was happening in the Microsoft world.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I remember all the trouble coused by unmasking gnome3 in mainstream, and since I'm absolutely comfortable with openrc I wonder if there is any chance for improved profiles' set.
You know, there is kde/systemd and gnome/systemd profile, but pushing gnome still wrecked havoc to machine with simply desktop profile. I suppose openrc profile excluding systemd completly could be handy. It seems udev is about to depend on systemd. Perhaps other software packs will soon depend too.
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