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So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software
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truekaiser
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:05 am    Post subject: So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software Reply with quote

Emphasis on 'might' because I am not a lawyer and their may be legalese I am missing.

Code:
## Article 14.17: Source Code

1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code
of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the
import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products
containing such software, in its territory.

2. For the purposes of this Article, software subject to paragraph 1
is limited to mass-market software or products containing such
software and does not include software used for critical
infrastructure.

3. Nothing in this Article shall preclude:

  (a) the inclusion or implementation of terms and conditions related
to the provision of source code in commercially negotiated contracts;
or

  (b) a Party from requiring the modification of source code of
software necessary for that software to comply with laws or
regulations which are not inconsistent with this Agreement.

4. This Article shall not be construed to affect requirements that
relate to patent applications or granted patents, including any orders
made by a judicial authority in relation to patent disputes, subject
to safeguards against unauthorised disclosure under the law or
practice of a Party.


With red-hat's new cooperation with microsoft maybe we are going to see a closed source linux distro if this turns out to be true?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software Reply with quote

truekaiser wrote:
[code]1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory.

truekaiser ... I'm fairly sure that doesn't cover copyleft, copyleft doesn't have "access" as a "condition of import, distribution, sale, or use", it has the right to "copy and distribute" (with conditions) software under the license. This seems to be targeting cases where some party expects (ie, "require[s]") the source code as a conditon of aquiring the "software".

best ... khay
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: So, the TPP might outlaw copy-left software Reply with quote

Code:
1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory.

khayyam wrote:
I'm fairly sure that doesn't cover copyleft, copyleft doesn't have "access" as a "condition of import, distribution, sale, or use", it has the right to "copy and distribute" (with conditions) software under the license. This seems to be targeting cases where some party expects (ie, "require[s]") the source code as a conditon of aquiring the "software".

Hmm I disagree on the first, but it does not apply anyway, because only the copyright holder can license the software, so it is not "owned by [another party]" but by the (legal) person/s applying the license to the software released.

So I agree it's intended in the way you outline, but feel sure it will be mangled over time, as Laws usually are; or the Rules, Regulation and Guidance will be used for the same effect.

edit: mangled code tag


Last edited by steveL on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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POSIX_ME_HARDER
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, party here refers to the governments that sign the treaty.
This would not let them force people to reveal their source code prior to allowing the software in the country.
This does not affect copy-left.
It does however facilitate spying on another country using closed source software (including drivers).
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is TPP?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
what is TPP?

krinn ... Trans Pacific Partnership.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
what is TPP?
Trans Pacific Partnership

an open trade agreement between nations around the pacific ocean to spur trade by removing tarrifs etc... comes at a price (especially if you look at the equiv trans Atlantic partnership).

This is between gov't more than industry partners. Its basically capturing one gov't cannot expect to be given sourcecode as a prereq for goods being imported.
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Last edited by Naib on Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks more clear now
I agree to sell you my Cisco NSA ready router, and you agree that you have no rights to asked me the router source code to see what they will do :)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Looks more clear now
I agree to sell you my Cisco NSA ready router, and you agree that you have no rights to asked me the router source code to see what they will do :)
remember the TTP is between nations, not corporations.
"you agree to import these NSA ready Cisco routers without any expectations to view the source"
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember also that these "agreements between nations" have been conducted in secrecy, without any democratic process whatsoever, yet they have the power of Treaty, meaning they bind a nation's legislature and judiciary.

We can vote for what idiot sang the least worst on some crappy show, and we can vote on what flavour of toothpaste we like the most.
We just cannot vote on, nor even know about, matters which actually affect us in reality.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

POSIX_ME_HARDER wrote:
As far as I know, party here refers to the governments that sign the treaty.
This would not let them force people to reveal their source code prior to allowing the software in the country.
This does not affect copy-left.
It does however facilitate spying on another country using closed source software (including drivers).

Ah OK, my mistake. Let's review that again, given the correct definition:
Code:
1. No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory.

I see what you mean. Effectively: you cannot review for backdoors, or the NSA will have a hissy-fit.. ;)

Recently Windows has started to make a lot more sense: in line with tor, the NSA wants botnets out there: it gives "plausible" deniability, for one, if any leak could be down to someone's crappy OS being compromised by practically everyone.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Remember also that these "agreements between nations" have been conducted in secrecy, without any democratic process whatsoever, yet they have the power of Treaty, meaning they bind a nation's legislature and judiciary.


- I can spy my citizens, but some senator fucker has made a law that i could only kept their datas for a month.
So i agree to put no taxes when i import your grain, and you agree to kept our citizens datas forever on some server in your country for us. deal?
- But senators and people will complains?
- Don't worry, they won't know, and even if, it's not against our law as they aren't kept in our country.
- Ok deal
- Ready for deal two?

:D
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depontius
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Recently Windows has started to make a lot more sense: in line with tor, the NSA wants botnets out there: it gives "plausible" deniability, for one, if any leak could be down to someone's crappy OS being compromised by practically everyone.

And there are those that claim this as part of the rationale for systemd.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 appears to refer to resellers rather than developers and users.
2. makes it look even more so. Limitation to mass-market only.
3. makes it even more so, as it explicitly states that the customer can demand source code as a part of a deal.

Finally, open software is based on permissive licenses as in "the developers are willing to share the code", rather than the user demands source code. The above does not say "you must not share code". It says "in some cases you can't demand the code".

Well, at least that's how it looks like from here :roll:
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, it's more worrying on further reflection.
Code:
No Party shall require the transfer of, or access to, source code of software owned by a person of another Party, as a condition for the import, distribution, sale or use of such software, or of products containing such software, in its territory.

This is in fact a standard proviso for the provision of software to many public or municipal authorities.

To ban a nation from applying the same rationale, eg: in healthcare or education, simply hobbles it, deliberately so.

The part about "products containing such software" is also a real concern, both in terms of safety and privacy.

It seems to me a "government" does not, and cannot, have the authority to give away, nor sell or transfer in any form, its citizens' rights.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
remember the TTP is between nations, not corporations.


And those corporations can sue governments for damages for laws that reduce their profits, i.e. minimum wage, environmental bans.
These suits are in panels consisting soley of corporations, NOT courts of law.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
remember the TTP is between nations, not corporations.

-- with the effect of Treaty. But in secret, "because democracy."
Tony0945 wrote:
And those corporations can sue governments for damages for laws that reduce their profits, i.e. minimum wage, environmental bans.
These suits are in panels consisting solely of corporations, NOT courts of law.

Yeah that setup really is insane. Corporations suing nations on the grounds that the nation has reduced their profit, by looking after its citizens. This is the "international" so-called legal order that realpolitik, which excuses any lie after the event, has given us.

Bring on the revolution. ;-) cos what we have now is plainly a turd.
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