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Ema64
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Proposals for Gentoo future Reply with quote

Hi guys,

please do not trust my subscription date: I'm a Gentoo user from years :) posted also messages here in the forum but now I cannot find them, maybe I used an anonymous user, sorry for that.

I'm here to talk about the future of our loved distribution. I've seen that in so many years the Linux world changed a lot: now Linux has a lot of up to date drivers has a Steam system and must be a modern multimedia platform.

Gentoo is a really nice idea of a Linux system but in my opinion like the main site page needs some focusing guidelines.

For example: in 2015 we cannot edit a video in Gentoo because we're lacking an ebuild for that. I've used Cinelerra and it is wonderful but pass to libav and you cannot use anymore the Cinelerra ebuild which anyway installs a frequent crashing version. Steam will spread Linux system in houses: Gentoo now has fully multilib internal support, which is GOOD, and so why not build an ebuild for the Steam runtime libraries compiled in Gentoo to fully use the distro strength?

I'm following IT world from years and I know that quality without marketing means Commodore's paradise lost. So let's imagine a marketing message for Gentoo: dear user install Gentoo to be unable to edit the video done with your digital camera!!! :):):):):)

Here are my proposal the enhance the wonderful Gentoo world:

1. money donation with realtime destination more like Humbe Bundle system. So at least I'll be gladly to choose which percantage of my money shall go to maintainance, specific package development and also charity organization just to remember that we're lucky to have a PC to work and play but not everyone has this good fate. The list of selection is up to you but it would be a nice thing in the 2015 to have more 'power' of directing my money;

2. definitely implement a package development priority defined by two variables: present time needs (i.e.: video edit, come on a digital camera could cost 50 dollars and we cannot edit video) and user desiderata/suggestions;

3. forum reorganization by hot topic cross area to have a more quick access. For example I've seen a lot of question about Wine and Dosbox... we know now which are the most installed piece of software: why leave them in the middle of the questioning world? Please isolate and then people will find the solution to their problem more quickly and it'll be also more easy to identify the question we knew about to give an help.

Of course I want to contribute.

Thank you for Gentoo.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't do video editing myself, however I know blender does a really good job with that and it is in portage, even though marked as testing. Why won't you give it a try?

People are a lazy folk. Asking questions is easier that searching for old topics. Also, there are often some quirks that make old topics not-so-well-suitable. Whatever changes to the forum you suggest, stuff like "people will find the solution to their problem" is not going to happen unless enforced by warnings and bans, and at this point who would actually need it anymore? I don't say it's a bad idea, it might have other advantages. I just don't consider your point reallistic. Search button is just damn hard to find!

Btw steam is basicaly a package manager for windows. It's not ment to cooperate with emerge and check for already installed libraries. Perhaps if windows had it's own native package manager steam would be designed as a module and also integrate with linux in one way or another. However, it's not a module, it's a full blown package manager with full blown DRM. Another tool doing the same job, just for different set of software. Making it work together woudl require cooperation. It's gonna be valve way or highway.
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well my thoughts on it is, for #2 is that you are more than welcome to submit a bug request to add some package. The biggest issue on why portage doesn't have all these other packages, is that there isn't anyone willing to maintain the ebuild(s) for them. Gentoo is not going to just add some ebuild if there isn't someone that is willing to step up to maintain it. You are more than welcome to volunteer to maintain the package(s), and I know some of the devs specifically stated before (on various bug reports, occasional forum post, and also on irc) that they will teach you how to make an ebuild. Making an ebuild isn't hard to do, I taught myself how to do it by reading various already made ebuilds and modifing them and see what happens. I know there is even a guide on how to make an ebuild. Most of the devs that do maintain ebuilds are not paid, they are volunteering to do it themselves (without any pay, and probably without thanks either). I could easily enough volunteer to maintain some of ebuilds, but I don't have the time and skills available to do so right now. So for me, I figure the easiest way is by submitting bug reports for issues, and helping devs out by providing patches or working ebuilds to help save them some time.

The other big point I am going to make, is if a package isn't working report it so it can be fixed. No one can fix a problem if they don't know about it. A small pet peeve of mine, don't just report a bug then forget about it. Help the dev(s) test to see if a certain patch fixes it or not. Just because something doesn't work for you, does not mean it doesn't work for someone else.

On #3, that sounds more to me as something against the very principal of Gentoo to begin with; choice.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ema64 wrote:
3. forum reorganization by hot topic cross area to have a more quick access. For example I've seen a lot of question about Wine and Dosbox... we know now which are the most installed piece of software: why leave them in the middle of the questioning world? Please isolate and then people will find the solution to their problem more quickly and it'll be also more easy to identify the question we knew about to give an help.
While a variation on that theme might be a useful search option, it would not be generally beneficial to change the default interface in such a way.
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EmaRsk
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While agree with the rest…
szatox wrote:
Search button is just damn hard to find!

The forum's search function is a joke. Without a "search in title only" option and exact phrase matching functionality it's just useless.
It's much better to use an external search engine like DuckDuckGo or Google with "site:forums.gentoo.org intitle:".
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Ema64
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well what can I say... thank you really thank you for the answers: I really find them useful for everybody and each is regarding various point of view.

About search button I totally agree with you but maybe the best way to describe my point is that Gentoo forum is really full of precious advices, really, but as you stated google is someway better than internal search. Maybe one day Gentoo will need some sort of forum reorg as the Internet site had already done.

About ebuild I'm totally interested in preparing them: I'll contact a dev as soon as my work will give me the time :) but I'll really find a way to do that.

About Steam... well, it's indeed the DRM paradise but it's the modern day spreading way for a distro: Ubuntu is using it as a launchpad maybe in Gentoo is possible to search for a way... maybe when I'll have more experience with the ebuild system.

Finally about the wonderful Cinelerra: I tried to build from source also by changing original .sh script and everything went well until some error message, at the present time too bad for me, stopped my try. Libltool installed is 2.6 but the configure.ac (maybe) is suited for 2.2 and as far as I know downgrading libltool is not a nice idea :) instead I should prepare an .ac file suited for 2.6 version of library. And that's it: too much for me, now; in future maybe I'll find a way and I'll build a lot of wonderful ebuild :)

Thank you for your answer: my 2015 proposals are 'please better contribute to the Gentoo community' so I'll try :)
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ there is loads of materials on creating and modyfing ebuilds.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
About search button I totally agree with you but maybe the best way to describe my point is that Gentoo forum is really full of precious advices, really, but as you stated google is someway better than internal search.
Yes, it is. Perhaps it would be possible to replace search page with a list of common cheat-codes. It might be both non-invasive and handy.

However, my point on search button being hard to find refers to users much more than the quality of search engine. Forum user is not someone who wants to search. It's someone who wants to ask a question and get an answer. Or share some experience. Or just chat.
If you want to search, you go to wiki, manual, and whatever resources search engine of your choice has indexed. It might be a forum as well, yes, if it accidentally touched the matter you are interested in. And if you consider yourself that rare exception who atempted to search information first, but is not satisfied with results, note that at this point you're back in forums asking questions and hoping for answers.
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Ema64
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Quote:
About search button I totally agree with you but maybe the best way to describe my point is that Gentoo forum is really full of precious advices, really, but as you stated google is someway better than internal search.
Yes, it is. Perhaps it would be possible to replace search page with a list of common cheat-codes. It might be both non-invasive and handy.

However, my point on search button being hard to find refers to users much more than the quality of search engine. Forum user is not someone who wants to search. It's someone who wants to ask a question and get an answer. Or share some experience. Or just chat.
If you want to search, you go to wiki, manual, and whatever resources search engine of your choice has indexed. It might be a forum as well, yes, if it accidentally touched the matter you are interested in. And if you consider yourself that rare exception who atempted to search information first, but is not satisfied with results, note that at this point you're back in forums asking questions and hoping for answers.


Aaaaah thank you szatox: THAT'S my point. Mostly, the forum is: ok I need this I ask there because I have no time to read wiki or I'm lazy. But I'm not here to judge the Gentoo user: I want Gentoo everywhere and well suited for everyone. In my opinion wiki are good, manual is (boring ;) ) but some sort of good, forum 'could be' perfect. For Gentoo we need all the three of them, no doubt but the forum 'could' be upgraded to answer to your questions BEFORE asking.

How to do that? Searching the right way into the forum but with a powerful search tool and maybe some order by criteria. I'm not inventing anything :) think to google please: some years ago google is in passive mode now google will auto-suggest a word by using your letters.

So: Gentoo needs prcatice of course but when you land in the forum it would be wonderful to have the answer without posting or maybe posting just a Thank you for the solution.

I made an example: imagine me installing Wine in a Gentoo distro never reinstalled and after changing four graphics card :) believe me: it's HELL (mesa tries to kill my system at each update ;) ). So I came to gentoo forum and after a two hours search I find suggestion about: minor installation issue of Wine well explained in any guide ;), speaking error messages to be somehow understood but the error: we're lacking library xyz TRULY means we're lacking that library ;) and after checking 3654 pages of 'common' problems I'll be lucky to find the answer to that nuketype issue I had ;)

So thank you really szatox: for sure you helped me to better explain my point of view and wonderfully you've highlighted my core point better than me :o :oops:
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Ema64
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szczerb wrote:
Take a look at https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ there is loads of materials on creating and modyfing ebuilds.


Thank you very much szczerb: work in progress ;)

Unfortunately slow progress: today I'll depart for a business trip until the sitxth of May :( but this shall be the last business trip for this year.

Then I'll develop thousands of golden ebuilds ;)
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's only one good solution for gentoo: start from scratch and for once think carefully about the design and what kind of features we let in. It wouldn't even take that long if people would agree on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell,

Thats called Exherbo .. and they keep starting from scratch :)
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Thats called Exherbo .. and they keep starting from scratch :)

Not really. I don't know any gentoo developer working on Exherbo.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am operating my Gentoo system for some years.

in my opinion,

- Emerge's operation ( e.g. its outputs) is not much friendly.
Then I'm using Paludis, but it's for experts.
I still can't operate without equery, q-applets, eix. either Portage, Paludis and Pkgcore doesn't have enough.
Maybe Gentoo beginners wants simpler and more friendly PMS program.
Can't Portage have novice mode? Or can't we choice more friendly PMS?

- Do all users want begin to study from scratch first?
Many users ended up before their system become usable (e.g. ended up at kernel configuration).
I think we have the right to choice where we start studying from.
For instance, some users want to run pre-built kernel, then try to make their own kernel. Some want to study portage system, then build from scratch.
Almost all Gentoo beginners have operated other distribution (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS, etc.).
Though they are already GNU/Linux users, they give up about Gentoo.
Beginners must know too many thing at once to make their system usable.
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part I don't know about, is why is everyone that's coming to Gentoo wanting a prebuilt system in the first place. I think if you want a prebuilt system to learn how to use linux, you are better off on Debian or Ubuntu first where you are given a foundation to learn off of. When I first started learning linux, I started off using Mandrake (before it was renamed as Mandriva, if it's even around anymore) and Red Hat (later renamed as Fedora). When I first switched to Gentoo I come with my eyes open knowing full well that Gentoo does not have prebuilt stuff, you compile everything yourself. When I first found Gentoo, it was listed as a experienced level distro not a beginning one.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Many users ended up before their system become usable (e.g. ended up at kernel configuration).


Part of that problem is that the docs assume you want to configure a new kernel from scratch, while the kernel on the liveDVD or systemrescuecd will work fine and should be every noob's fallback kernel. THEN they can try to build a kernel and still have the default kernel to select at boot if their built kernel fails.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
There's only one good solution for gentoo: start from scratch and for once think carefully about the design and what kind of features we let in. It wouldn't even take that long if people would agree on it.


https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-658565-highlight-.html
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wjn wrote:
I am operating my Gentoo system for some years.

in my opinion,

- Emerge's operation ( e.g. its outputs) is not much friendly.
Then I'm using Paludis, but it's for experts.
I still can't operate without equery, q-applets, eix. either Portage, Paludis and Pkgcore doesn't have enough.
Maybe Gentoo beginners wants simpler and more friendly PMS program.
Can't Portage have novice mode? Or can't we choice more friendly PMS?

Portage is unrecoverably broken. The reason only one guy is actively working on it and ~2 others barely understand its basics... is the code quality. There is a point in software development when it's time to abandon legacy code and move on. The same goes for PMS and EAPI. Gentoo is a giant hairball and no one is dealing with it. We just keep adding stuff, often without a clue about the consequences (e.g. multilib).

So if you want to contribute to PM, there are only two sane ways:
  • contribute to pkgcore development directly
  • fork paludis and make it more user-friendly (I can assure you, you'll not have any luck contributing to the troll upstream)

For the other parts (PMS and EAPI), there is no way to really fix it without starting from scratch. If you ask the PMS team, they even admit that PMS wasn't designed from the start, but started as a description of portage behavior.

But you'll never get large agreement on any of these things. On the one hand because it's actually a lot of work and might even need funding, and on the other hand because of emotional attachment to legacy software.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One issue I see with Gentoo is that I've seen some unwarrented removals of packages like Xpdf or XMMS, because of "security risks" or "bugs". Yeah, okay, that's fine, but the Gentoo project is not responsible for upstream, just getting the ports building and running. It should be at the user's discretion and choice what software to use if there are potential concerns, just like the user can choose to use systemd or not, and many people seem to think that systemd poses a larger security risk to a system than some old Motif PDF viewer.

These removals tend to lead to software that I and many other people like being removed, and while I can write my own ebuilds and use my own or another's overlay, it is very frustrating. There seems to also be a trend of removing software from ports because it is "unmaintained", i.e. has not had a release for a year or so. Usually software like that has git commits or is just feature-complete and done, but they are still removed and there has to be a huge effort to add it to portage again.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wjn wrote:

- Do all users want begin to study from scratch first?
Many users ended up before their system become usable (e.g. ended up at kernel configuration).
I think we have the right to choice where we start studying from.
For instance, some users want to run pre-built kernel, then try to make their own kernel. Some want to study portage system, then build from scratch.
Almost all Gentoo beginners have operated other distribution (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS, etc.).
Though they are already GNU/Linux users, they give up about Gentoo.
Beginners must know too many thing at once to make their system usable.

So? These are things they should know and/or be able or willing to learn those things. Kernel configuration is not hard, nowadays it really just entails making a few checkmarks in a GUI.

You won't be installing Gentoo many times, and if you can't be bothered to do so once, or are not able to understand how to, you don't really have business running it.

Anyways, Gentoo does have a "Ubuntu mode" so to speak, like what you describe, it's called Sabayon.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
The part I don't know about, is why is everyone that's coming to Gentoo wanting a prebuilt system in the first place. I think if you want a prebuilt system to learn how to use linux, you are better off on Debian or Ubuntu first where you are given a foundation to learn off of. When I first started learning linux, I started off using Mandrake (before it was renamed as Mandriva, if it's even around anymore) and Red Hat (later renamed as Fedora). When I first switched to Gentoo I come with my eyes open knowing full well that Gentoo does not have prebuilt stuff, you compile everything yourself. When I first found Gentoo, it was listed as a experienced level distro not a beginning one.

Mandriva's now some business-oriented wannabe RHEL. Mandriva Free was forked to Mageia.

Gentoo isn't too advanced though, it's just a lot of work and time. I don't usually correct people about it, because it's funny when Ubuntu users idolize users of distros like Arch, Gentoo, or Slackware (becuz arch is 1337 lol :roll: ).
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