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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Lul.
augustin wrote:
Laughing under Loud??

Yeah; in-between "hehe" and "lol". As seen in:
"Doing it for the lulz" ;-)
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the "politicking" front, Landley's recent post (also raised in the "kdbus in the kernel" thread) proved quite a diversion, in particular the LKML post from 2007 and the recent LWN article on kdbust.

Note the politicking from Poeterring ("mezcalero") in the latter; the same idiotic approach to pressuring people to use their turdware as GregK-H. Post what seem like "answers" in the same way that Markov-generated streams can appear to be prose, instead of letting the code speak for itself. Never mind transparent documentation so others can work alongside you: it's all about ego, not about results (apart from vendor lock-in, which is the result that's really in-mind.)

OFC what it'd be saying in the systemdbust case is: "I really don't want to be an MCP, but I can't help myself.."

Landley has been saying this for a while, but the 2007 post is revealing.
Seems I'm not the only one GregK-H has brushed aside with a hand-wave and a put-down, on a public mailing-list, as a way to avoid a technical discussion that can only prove him wrong.

This is the "number 2 Linux developer"? A documentation guy, who appears more interested in politicking, or power-plays, and what he can get out of the Linux community for himself, than in either the code, or truly open collaboration.

I can think of at least 3 or 4 people who'd be better candidates to take over from Torvalds, like Molnar, hpa, Lutomirski, Russell.. the list goes on (Rostedt..)

Torvalds passing the baton to Kroah-Hartman, would be akin to a headmaster retiring and handing over to his secretary, instead of another teacher.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Though.. the ornery nature of users and smarter developers is a counter-weight, the apparatchiks are all about leverage (which is why "representative democracy" is all we ever get: much easier to coopt a few, than all. After all, you can fool some people all of the time.)

If we want to avoid it, then we have to fight the apparatchiks now, or later it will be a fait-accompli:
"No-one said anything back then, why are you kicking up a fuss now? Who are you anyhow?" (let's deflect into that, quite nastily, instead of the substantive issue.)

gwr wrote:
Quote:
The apparatchik's aim in life is to out-ass-kiss, out-maneuver, out-threaten, out-lie and ultimately out-fight his or her way to the top of the pyramid-any pyramid.
Nice!
But it doesn't seem like the few fighting are having any real effect.

I know how you feel; it gets tiring, for sure, especially because we'd much rather be dealing with a CPU than an overblown-wannabe.

That's the nature of "political campaigns", as this is: they tend never to end.
In this case, the tendency we're pushing back against, is the tendency for younger programmers to think that "more code must be better", as well as the tendency to want to conform to what everyone else is doing (herd instinct is useful in some situations.) Both of these are being exploited to try to coopt Linux, and end-run round the GPL. Either one falling makes the other fall, in business-terms, as Linux has always been the most visible GPL project, since its inception.

It's all about the mass-market, and it is exactly the same situation (or "strategic scenario") as the 70s and 80s, just with a different method of attack: someone is looking to make a killing out of users, by making them pay for what everyone developed together, for free.
Only this time we're forewarned, thanks to previous experience, and forearmed, thanks to rms and the FSF.
So ofc lots of noise about kdbusted uses, and none at all about the GPL evasion inherent, intended to make the license irrelevant. (This is Google's longer-term plan as well, imo: there really was no need at all for them to avoid a GPL userland. Companies are all the same, eventually, because they're all ultimately controlled by the same few people.)

You have to take it like a tag-team match, or you won't make it through, and you certainly won't have any time for your real life. ;)

It's not technical, except insofar as they want to be able to point to enough "technical articles" written by people with zero insight, which have become so fashionable thanks to the internet, to be able to win the propaganda campaign. So that customers naturally want systemdbust in the same way they want Windoze: because that's what they've heard of, and they don't want to sound like they know nothing, so they mention that to sound vaguely knowledgeable.

So don't approach it technically, as it is not a technical battle; just continue to point out flaws as you have been doing, when you cba.

Hold your ground, and soon enough the tide will turn.

Eventually the message will get through to end-users that the "ornery has-beens" aren't buying the smelly shinola^W^W supah-sauce; the fashion will move on as fashions always do, especially when it's finally obvious that the people who make the systems work IRL aren't going for it (so no "grand revolution" to talk about, and no "story", apart from "we're doing what we always did, only in new situations": boring); and we might even see a "new" trend toward "lean and mean", instead of "bloated, entangled and buggy". (We can hope, right? ;)

That won't stop this kind of thing happening again; that's why we have the meme of "One True Way"[1]: to remind us that it's nothing new, and to keep us on our guard against it.

Meanwhile, it's nice to be sociable in our downtime. :-)

==
[1] Shame it was ESR who wrote it up, as he really is full of sth afaic: himself and how great life is when everyone does what you tell them, thanks to an idiotic cloak of mystique derived from other people's work. Hmm.. rings a bell. But this stuff is all simple: very fast, but very simple. Complexity comes from the interaction of simple things: to get a handle on it, we go back to simple, and remain there.
Mystique is useless, as it only obfuscates, and it has no technical purpose: only the social one of asserting status, in a hierarchy of idiots.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Your rules of "professionalism" apply there - as dictated by the employer, not Gentoo.

Hmm see below; but scratch my question about vcs record, as you answered it earlier (xml conversion chopped off a bit.) Sorry for that.
gwr wrote:
I think he was talking about how the industry should work in general with respect to learning from your seniors.

Not so much; "should" doesn't mean anything really, if no-one else agrees or cares. And "learning from your seniors" is not how I'd put it, mainly because age does not imply wisdom, nor anything else ime (apart from being older ;)

More what krinn said:
krinn wrote:
When you work for someone, even for free, that is your employer. [ed.]
portage and openrc are gentoo projects not any gentoo devs project.
If you work for some organization that gave free food to the poor, you are still doing it under the organization rules, you cannot do anything you wish; if you disagree you can quit.

Your professionalism always applies, or you are not a professional.

Sure, there's no employment contract. So what? All that means is you don't have any deadlines, so can take your time to put out crafted work, as and when you've tested it enough with your immediate circle.

It does not mean you suddenly have the right to break end-user setups, and then blame them for your mess, because "no-one can force you" to correct your own mistakes.

If you think that, you're delusional, and you really shouldn't be in software at all. Consider another career, instead.

Not everyone is cut out for programming, nor administration. No shame in that; most programmers aren't people I'd have looked up to as a youth anyhow. They really are not rockstars, for all the vainglorious attempts to appear so (apparently just by using the term..)
Quote:
(*) funtoo openrc history
Interesting link, thanks.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Torvalds passing the baton to Kroah-Hartman, would be akin to a headmaster retiring and handing over to his secretary, instead of another teacher.


At that point my last kernel would be the one that Linus has his hand on the throttle. (related to gentoo o/c)
As RH and sycophants would be in control of it and would destroy it.
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depontius
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
steveL wrote:
Torvalds passing the baton to Kroah-Hartman, would be akin to a headmaster retiring and handing over to his secretary, instead of another teacher.


At that point my last kernel would be the one that Linus has his hand on the throttle. (related to gentoo o/c)
As RH and sycophants would be in control of it and would destroy it.


At that point my move would be to a BSD. Most software needs to be live. Maybe some can be considered finished, but most not. So to take a given release and use just that might work in some cases, but in others would become a security issue. If there is a last Linus kernel, and the wrong people take over, like you I'll use that last Linus kernel, but use it long enough to plan my migration to BSD.

In the meantime, I'll continue in the Unix Philosophy KoF role. I really do believe there will be a significant systemd security breach in the next two years, and hopefully the kernel won't have passed on, and systemd won't have complete control before then. At that point, providing the road back to sanity will be an essential need.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I really do believe there will be a significant systemd security breach in the next two years

discovered depontuis, discovered...

Nobody could doubt systemd already have more than one ; but not yet discovered or public (i think the only ones that are reviewing systemd REALLY for security are nsa & other security organizations).
It cannot be different, the target looks too sweet (lol systemd on all servers) and the result too tempting (too tasty to get the control of an application that is the init and that will re-run on reboot, pid1 & with full privileges, and lol that have its own logs only readable by itself making sure if you fucked the "whatever name the systemd log viewer have", user will see what you want him to see from his logs).
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the black hats have already found innumerable flaws/exploits and are just waiting for wide spread deployment before they attack.

Think about it, which is more impressive (to black hats)
"I found an exploit or more than one"
OR
"I found an exploit and owned hundreds of businesses and thousands of end users boxes"
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depontius
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
discovered depontuis, discovered...


When I said, "breach" I meant, "In the news".

But you're right, there are any number of systems that have been pwned for years, these days.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Locked in favour of The Politics of systemd Part 2

At 30 pages, this thread is about to break the forums.
Please continue in Part 2
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