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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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 Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Systemd and its hatred of syslog
http://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/linux/SystemdAndSyslog
| Quote: | Anyone who works with systemd soon comes to realize that systemd just doesn't like syslog very much. In fact systemd is so unhappy with syslog that it invented its own logging mechanism (in the form of journald). This is not news. What people who don't have to look deeply into the situation often don't realize is that systemd's dislike is sufficiently deep that systemd just doesn't interact very well with syslog.
I won't say that bugs and glitches 'abound', because I've only run into two issues so far (although both issues are relatively severe). One was that systemd mis-filed kernel messages under the syslog 'user' facility instead of the 'kernel' one; this bug made it past testing and into RHEL 7 / CentOS 7. The other is that sometimes on boot, randomly, systemd will barf up a significant chunk of old journal messages (sometimes very old) and re-send them to syslog. If you don't scroll back far enough while watching syslog logs, this can lead you to believe that something really bad and weird has happened. |
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grot
n00b
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Haha! Lennart actually replied in the comments! I love it! Summary of his reply? "Not a bug; won't fix" ahahaha
To be fair, it appears as though one of the bugs was related to rsyslog, and the other bug noted was supposedly fixed in journald about a year ago? (this point was made by cks on April 13 - I'm confused by this point - was he using a really old version?).
Regardless, I think Lennart's detailed response highlights some points:
1) Excuse my ignorance here, but it appears that if you opt to use syslog, journald still wraps it, creating unnecessary complexity
2) Lennart thinks syslog messages do not contain enough metadata, such as timezone and security information. This seems again like systemd trying to giver every user a niche solution; this is an example of some bugs that would have never occurred if someone could *disable* journald and simply use syslog.
3) systemd-applications, when functioning as wrappers, are going to have a tough time keeping up with changes to the applications that are being wrapped.
4) No apparent motivation to contact syslog and determine if the bugs are actually occurring on the syslog side, or journald side. Lennart wrote a long and thorough response, but the motivation felt that it was mostly to protect sysemd, and point out the blog post was "unfair" (his choice of word).
IMO, the worst-but-still-better response would have been "Please file a bug report. But be sure to also file with syslog since some of these issues might be on their end."
It's entirely moot to attempt to defeat a blogger in a technical discussion. Whatever the technical details were, a bug's a bug, and pulling a blogger into that discussion is a waste of time, and, imo, not dignified. If a single solution had been proposed, I might have regarded it as "thoughtful", but here it looks as though he's excited to start a debate that he knows he is going to win.
Unless cks is widely known and I'm just unaware of that. |
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unixman
n00b
Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ChrisJumper wrote: | | Maybe we have to put more pressure (also financial) on the systemd Team, to build some kind of Systemd-Light. Right now i think that i could use a light Version of Systemd by disabling just some fancy sub-programs. But yes, the tree grow faster than i could build my treehouse! |
It's called uselessd.
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unixman
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Joined: 22 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone else think systemd is a product of the second-system effect? If it is, at least there is some reasonable hope that Lennart, being so influential as he apparently is, may realize and admit his mistakes and try to fix them.
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geki
Advocate
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2387
Location: Germania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:25 am Post subject: |
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I am just wondering...
is there somewhere a list of people involved (and status, history) in systemd (politics) for a future reference?
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| grot wrote: | | This seems again like systemd trying to giver every user a niche solution; this is an example of some bugs that would have never occurred if someone could *disable* journald and simply use syslog. |
That would be modularity, and we don't do modularity except as a marketing-gimmick (internal only which is just bs).
You sound like one of those "traditionalists" who wants the ability to control what runs on their machine..
Hmm doesn't like the inturgrated "vision" we have laid out for you in a bundle of complexity. Wants to go back to modular software that minds its own business.
All together now: "You must be a hater!" ;)
Great post, btw. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | grot wrote: | | This seems again like systemd trying to giver every user a niche solution; this is an example of some bugs that would have never occurred if someone could *disable* journald and simply use syslog. |
That would be modularity, and we don't do modularity except as a marketing-gimmick (internal only which is just bs).
You sound like one of those "traditionalists" who wants the ability to control what runs on their machine..
Hmm doesn't like the inturgrated "vision" we have laid out for you in a bundle of complexity. Wants to go back to modular software that minds its own business.
All together now: "You must be a hater!" 
Great post, btw. |
How can you have modularity when the current (ever-changing) stated overarching goal is to give third parties a "united platform to target?" If that platform is modularized, how can people count on it being uniform?
We tried that modular thing with POSIX and we've only gotten decades out of that insufferably modularity... we want to be Windows, where we're told how to compute whether we like it or not!
besides, it's totally modular... with 60+ binaries all tightly coupled together! |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
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Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Linus, et al should tell the (k)dbus and systemd people that we're not putting that code in the kernel.
We'll give you a bus that will handle multicast with ordered send but that's it.
Redesign dbus to use the new bus and do what you want in userspace.
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saellaven
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I'm waiting for them to attempt a coup to overthrow Linus from the kernel using the new rules they added in a month or two ago.
Of course, it wouldn't do any good, as people want to follow Linus' branch of the tree and he could simply "fork" a new branch... but given the politics they have played so far, I'm willing to bet they will try it if they can't get their way. |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | I'm waiting for them to attempt a coup to overthrow Linus from the kernel using the new rules they added in a month or two ago.
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Whoa! What rule was this, now? Do you have a link? |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | saellaven wrote: | I'm waiting for them to attempt a coup to overthrow Linus from the kernel using the new rules they added in a month or two ago.
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Whoa! What rule was this, now? Do you have a link? |
the CoC that was released a few months back
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EmaRsk
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Joined: 07 Sep 2004
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Location: Italy
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you! I had no idea what I was googling for.
.... and Greg Kroah-Hartman is on the TAB. |
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steveL
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, I can't believe Linus accepted that into his tree.
The TAB is clearly the same as Debian's "Technical" Advisory Committee, and much like that body and Gentoo's Council, is evidently overseeing issues for which it has no mandate, nor indeed any real inclination beyond the desire for control.
What a surprise; the tactic worked on Gentoo, worked on Debian, let's impose the same on Linux.
"Would the last coder to leave the kernel, please hand over your soul to Greg on the way out." |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | Wow, I can't believe Linus accepted that into his tree.
The TAB is clearly the same as Debian's "Technical" Advisory Committee, and much like that body and Gentoo's Council, is evidently overseeing issues for which it has no mandate, nor indeed any real inclination beyond the desire for control.
What a surprise; the tactic worked on Gentoo, worked on Debian, let's impose the same on Linux.
"Would the last coder to leave the kernel, please hand over your soul to Greg on the way out." |
The only saving grace may be that it doesn't specifically state what will be done to resolve the so-called conflict. I don't like the "otherwise uncomfortable" clause. It states in the previous paragraph that it's an uncomfortable process in the first place. Those words are sufficiently broad enough to apply to anyone at any time. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | The only saving grace may be that it doesn't specifically state what will be done to resolve the so-called conflict. |
Trust me, that's much worse. It means it's going to be ad-hoc (straw polls) until such time as it's impossible to justify.
Then there'll be a lot of community searching, they'll come up with "moderators" and then backtrack and only allow moderation by themselves.
After all, they're in charge, right?
| Quote: | | I don't like the "otherwise uncomfortable" clause. It states in the previous paragraph that it's an uncomfortable process in the first place. Those words are sufficiently broad enough to apply to anyone at any time. |
Precisely.
That's the aim: "we can't tell Linus, but we can sure as hell tell you and thus pressure him indirectly."
And ofc "you" will be based on who's compliant with the (undiscussed) "programme" and who's not.
If you cannot simply describe crap code as crap (or someone will feel "uncomfortable" and take that to the apparatchiks) then you can forget about actually delivering a good product. |
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gwr
Apprentice
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
If you cannot simply describe crap code as crap (or someone will feel "uncomfortable" and take that to the apparatchiks) then you can forget about actually delivering a good product. |
The words used will get toned down over time until they are so politically-correct and indirect that their meaning too is lost in a fog of ambiguity. I don't particularly like crtiticism, but I understand it is necessary to improve. |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
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Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | The words used will get toned down over time until they are so politically-correct and indirect that their meaning too is lost in a fog of ambiguity. |
Hehe that reminds me of this.
| Quote: | | I don't particularly like criticism, but I understand it is necessary to improve. |
Indeed; that's what constructive criticism is all about.
Torvalds may begin with "WTF is this shit?" but he goes on to describe exactly how to do it right.
Apparatchiks don't tend to have much to say, beyond making sure everyone follows their rules.
Then they get into a tizzy about the mildest infraction, and if there isn't one, they make one up, and bang on about that for ages till everyone else capitulates out of sheer boredom.
The objective ofc is to deflect headspace away from real issues, and onto nonsense designed to bolster their position (which is what they actually care about.)
Never mind that status is transitory, at best, and not what most of us live for. We're social animals, so yes it's important to feel valued, but equally as important is empathy, to a social creature; the people around us are what we live for (apart from sociopaths ofc.)
Sadly most blokes don't even find that out til they're in their mid-50's at earliest, from what I've seen. They end up alone in a pub, wondering why no-one likes them, trying to avoid thinking about all the crap they pulled along the way. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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The CoC discussion has its own thread.
Both are likely to run and run
--- edit ---
Thats the Gentoo CoC discussion thats been split off
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Last edited by NeddySeagoon on Fri May 01, 2015 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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steveL
Watchman
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Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 10:37 am Post subject: |
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The Gentoo Council CoC != Linux TAB CoC, though both are mechanisms of the apparatchik, and not the fundamental documents they purport to be.
Thanks, though. |
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Naib
Watchman
Joined: 21 May 2004
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asturm
Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8935
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | http://www.informationweek.com/software/operating-systems/controversial-lennart-poettering-finds-his-place-in-linux-community/a/d-id/1320316 |
Author declares Mir as Canonical's init replacement, and apparently believes systemd is for submission into the kernel (kdbus count: 0). |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't know informationweek.com, does this site have its articles usually as bad as this one or is it that "journalist" special skill only? |
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Shamus397
Apprentice
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 218
Location: Ur-th
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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What an awful article, full of misinformation, outright wrong 'facts', and bias. It is, however, a good example of co-opting a somewhat mainstream news source. I wonder how much Red Hat paid to get this article? 
I mean, containers on Linux wasn't possible until systemd came along to save the day? Really?  /fivemuinutesofmylifeiwillnevergetback |
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Tony0945
Watchman
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Prior to systemd, Poettering was the developer of PulseAudio, a sound server, and Avahi, a zeroconf protocol implementation for network device discovery. |
So he has a track record of producing opaque useless software that eventually gets junked. |
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