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Granny gives 3 worshippers a ride to heaven, in an SUV
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Muso
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
You know what I call a person who has the presumption to tell others what they should buy and operate?

An authoritarian.


++

To paraphrase Mr. Penn, the reason why I'm a libertarian is that I don't want to force people to do what I think is right.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should round up all the authoritarians and re-educate them. :P
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
We should round up all the authoritarians and re-educate them. :P
At gunpoint, in typical libertarian fashion!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They would have to do it voluntarily. We could encourage individuals to provide incentives for the authoritarians to voluntarily report to their local re-education center.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerwylie wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
We should round up all the authoritarians and re-educate them. :P
At gunpoint, in typical libertarian fashion!


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
mdeininger wrote:
Honestly though, you're being irrational about the SUV part. It would've been the exact same outcome no matter what kind of car she would've been in.
The mass of an SUV is so much higher than for instance the mass of the Smart you mentioned before, it makes all the difference. It is also next to impossible to fit three people below a Smart.

Your arguing whether a 300 kilo rock will break a window better than 100 kilo rock. Any car moving more than, say, walking speed carries more than enough kinetic energy to crush a pedestrian to pulp. Beyond that, what makes it more or less dangerous is primarily speed, not because of its salience in kinetic energy but because it's a primary determinant of reaction time, both for the driver and the pedestrian.
that is precisely what I tried to point out doing the maths. Incidentally, as The Pony pointed out I used less mass than the smart actually had and according to Spent I overestimated the mass of the SUV in question.

New numbers:
Smart: 800kg * 30 km/h / 1s ~ 6.667 kN
SUV (assuming she had the deluxe edition): 4,663 lbs * 30 km/h / 1s ~ 17.63 kN

Force a Smart exerts on a body under it: 800 kg / 2 * g ~ 3.92 kN
Force an SUV exerts on a body under it: 4,663 lbs / 4 * g ~ 5.19 kN

So there, it doesn't matter which of the two runs into you or which of the two drives over you: you're DEAD either way if you have to bear the full force of it. Regardless of whether it's a small car or an SUV. It doesn't matter.

Also, being hit by a Smart bears more kinetic energy than being run over by an SUV. Yeah I wouldn't wanna do either, but that's still how it is.

BoneKracker wrote:
What really happened here is probably that she was distracted by the three other chattering and advice-giving little old ladies in the car with her. Women with their mouths open should be even more illegal in cars than texting on a cell phone.
:lol: word
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdeininger wrote:

Smart: 800kg * 30 km/h / 1s ~ 6.667 kN
SUV (assuming she had the deluxe edition): 4,663 lbs * 30 km/h / 1s ~ 17.63 kN...

Where does 30km/h come from? Was it mentioned how fast it was going?

The vehicle was initially stopped. The only kinetic energy it could have had, was whatever the output of the engine times the N seconds prior to smashing into these souls. The SUV, (presumably) having the bigger engine, would have had more kinetic energy.

But none of that matters. Any car with the pedal floored will easily mow down any pedestrians in its path.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
mdeininger wrote:

Smart: 800kg * 30 km/h / 1s ~ 6.667 kN
SUV (assuming she had the deluxe edition): 4,663 lbs * 30 km/h / 1s ~ 17.63 kN...

Where does 30km/h come from? Was it mentioned how fast it was going?

The vehicle was initially stopped. The only kinetic energy it could have had, was whatever the output of the engine times the N seconds prior to smashing into these souls. The SUV, (presumably) having the bigger engine, would have had more kinetic energy.

But none of that matters. Any car with the pedal floored will easily mow down any pedestrians in its path.
Ah yes, the 30 km/h was part of the calculation on the last page; I'd assumed that any recently built car would be able to get to 30 km/h quickly enough if you floor it, even in reverse. I also assumed that the abrupt acceleration at impact would take place over the course of roughly one second. It's not the cleanest calculation but it should be in the right ball park :).
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdeininger wrote:
Ah yes, the 30 km/h was part of the calculation on the last page; I'd assumed that any recently built car would be able to get to 30 km/h quickly enough if you floor it, even in reverse. I also assumed that the abrupt acceleration at impact would take place over the course of roughly one second. It's not the cleanest calculation but it should be in the right ball park :).
Your "calculation" actually made me cry. So lowbrow, so unphysical, so helpless.

Anyway, just look at the mass of a vehicle that crushes a person. It makes a big difference whether you have a quarter of 800 kg (Smart) on a person's body or 3 to 5 times (SUV) that much. If you have 200 kg on your chest, then breathing is very difficult, bones may break, organs may get damaged. With 600 kg to 1000 kg, organs and blood vessels rupture, the lung will be collaps, the heart will stop, and irreparable damage to vital organs may be the result.

The Smart ended up with a mass of 800 kg, because there is this stupid war between drivers of heavy vehicles and the rest going on (Spent, I would put a BMW 740 into the same group with SUVs and apply the same regulations). That church killer lady belongs to the former group of reckless, stupid people. There is no other reason why the Smart is that heavy. I am sure the designers of the Smart would love to build lighter cars. Since common sense is not part of the equation on the SUV driver side, it's time for authoritarian measures. :P

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/
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mdeininger
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
Your "calculation" actually made me cry. So lowbrow, so unphysical, so helpless.
I take it you never did *rough estimates* then? :P I make a point of not doing anything else unless I know the exact variables. If you have to handwave half of the variables involved then anything else is kinda pointless.

wildhorse wrote:
Anyway, just look at the mass of a vehicle that crushes a person. It makes a big difference whether you have a quarter of 800 kg (Smart) on a person's body or 3 to 5 times (SUV) that much. If you have 200 kg on your chest, then breathing is very difficult, bones may break, organs may get damaged. With 600 kg to 1000 kg, organs and blood vessels rupture, the lung will be collaps, the heart will stop, and irreparable damage to vital organs may be the result.
200 kg of weight on a person would imply that there's only one wheel on someone's chest. With a Smart that is quite impossible. There's not enough space between the underside of those cars and the road for an average person to fit in - if you have a smart on your chest, you'll invariably lift two tyres off the road - unless you've been pre-flattened by an SUV :P. So that's 400kg of weight on the average person being crushed by a smart - which is quite lethal in and of itself. Add 1-2 typical American drivers, that's another 200-300 kg of mass for the whole thing - 500 kg crushing down on the poor fella.

wildhorse wrote:
The Smart ended up with a mass of 800 kg, because there is this stupid war between drivers of heavy vehicles and the rest going on (Spent, I would put a BMW 740 into the same group with SUVs and apply the same regulations). That church killer lady belongs to the former group of reckless, stupid people. There is no other reason why the Smart is that heavy. I am sure the designers of the Smart would love to build lighter cars. Since common sense is not part of the equation on the SUV driver side, it's time for authoritarian measures. :P

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/
Most Smart models were designed by Mercedes engineers. They don't build "light". They build "crappy". And newer Smart models don't really come in "lighter" either, 'cause they're powered by electric engines - which need batteries. Batteries are HEAVY. I'm sure they'd love to make those lighter, but they just can't. In fact the battery of a 2013 smart fortwo electric drive alone comes in at 180 kg - which explains why that model weighs a rough 975 kg. If you get crushed by that you're at a rough 500 kg of weight crushing down on ya as well, so... yeah... might as well be stuck under an SUV's tyre. In fact, with 1-2 typical American drivers in that Smart you're looking at 550-650 kg. Ain't gonna make no difference, really.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b for Dear Leader!
Do I get the title approved stallion?

Your title is Government Mare.

Because you are such a good fascist drone.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdeininger wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
Your "calculation" actually made me cry. So lowbrow, so unphysical, so helpless.
I take it you never did *rough estimates* then? :P I make a point of not doing anything else unless I know the exact variables. If you have to handwave half of the variables involved then anything else is kinda pointless.
You have randomly mixed a few physical quantities without understanding what you actually calculate. That has nothing to do with physics and it is not an estimate either. You produced just humbug.

And the mass of a common US American is 200 kg. At least.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
mdeininger wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
Your "calculation" actually made me cry. So lowbrow, so unphysical, so helpless.
I take it you never did *rough estimates* then? :P I make a point of not doing anything else unless I know the exact variables. If you have to handwave half of the variables involved then anything else is kinda pointless.
You have randomly mixed a few physical quantities without understanding what you actually calculate. That has nothing to do with physics and it is not an estimate either. You produced just humbug.
Of course it's humbug. It must be if it disagrees with your conviction that SUVs are the worst thing since Hitler.

If you disagree with the numbers or the calculation then why don't you just share your own estimate of the forces involved. Oh, that's right, you can't because that'd just show that getting run over by a Smart is already quite sufficient to kill someone and the added mass of a SUV doesn't matter. Whoops :).

wildhorse wrote:
And the mass of a common US American is 200 kg. At least.
That doesn't exactly strengthen your point regarding an SUV being "better" at crushing a person than a Smart. Curiously it actually does the precise opposite.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdeininger wrote:
Of course it's humbug. It must be if it disagrees with your conviction that SUVs are the worst thing since Hitler.
OK :roll:
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're a truly great and scyentific enginear. You should be working in government safety, regulating the weight of automobiles, making them lighter so they don't do so much crushing damage to pedestrians while on top of them. God save Europe from Spaniards. :roll:
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b for Dear Leader!
Do I get the title approved stallion?

Your title is Government Mare.

Because you are such a good fascist drone.

She is The People's Pony.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
She is The People's Pony.
:D
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