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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject: Guidelines? Guidelines! Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Developers are agents of the community and operate under its aegis, as such they should be accountable to that community, and held to the highest standard when it comes to the work they do, how they communicate that work, and how they "interact" with the community.

Developers are the Gentoo Community which is defined by the list of its accepted members. Members of the Gentoo Community are in no way accountable to the adhoc community of forum users, which is by far less than the number of Gentoo users.
Everyone knows developers love to use emotional expressions to assign their subsumptions (in a language of a foreign world to them: Every week Linus emotionaly subsums the state of the new Linux kernel but nobody imagines him dancing with joy at his workplace).
Everyone knows the average Gentoo forum user loves to do it the opposite way round: Pick up some random facts to express his disgrace.

Split from What a Difference a Word Makes as it's a new topic and also because it's really not fair to Anon-E-moose. — JRG
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that turns out to be mostly not the case:
Gentoo Code of Conduct wrote:
Gentoo prides itself on being a community driven distribution that acts with the best interest of the community at heart. Rules and regulations that keep us all moving in a forward direction are a reality for a community of this size.

Gentoo Developers are accountable:If you see someone that's not adhering to these rules on the Forums, we're not intentionally letting it slide: there are only a few of us and a whole lot of you. ;)

That said, do I believe that general developer chatter on their mailing list is compliant with the code of conduct? Sadly, in too many cases, I don't. However, this is our community. We should do what we can.

- John
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Developers are the Gentoo Community which is defined by the list of its accepted members.

Incorrect, developers are not the community, they are only part of it. Are you on the list of "accepted members" of your planet?

ulenrich wrote:
Members of the Gentoo Community are in no way accountable to the adhoc community of forum users, which is by far less than the number of Gentoo users.

Logical fallacy ... the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

ulenrich wrote:
Everyone knows developers love to use emotional expressions to assign their subsumptions (in a language of a foreign world to them: Every week Linus emotionaly subsums the state of the new Linux kernel but nobody imagines him dancing with joy at his workplace).

A number of logical fallacies ... no logical connection between the proposition and the conclusion, use of "everyone knows" (aka "begging the question"), incoherence (please look up "subsumption" in a dictionary), ignoratio elenchi.

ulenrich wrote:
Everyone knows the average Gentoo forum user loves to do it the opposite way round: Pick up some random facts to express his disgrace.

A number of logical fallacies ... unjustifiable premises ("you love to do that, don't you ... you and your random facts"), use of "everyone knows" (aka "begging the question"), ignoratio elenchi.

Your not getting any better at this ... khay
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a situation "everyone knows" writing that "Everyone knows"
Isn't it like saying "the sun is shining" to people who see the sun shining?
Should I bore you just to avoid "Logical fallacy" ?
For sure I write my sentences because I silently think "nobody sees"
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
In a situation "everyone knows" writing that "Everyone knows". Isn't it like saying "the sun is shining" to people who see the sun shining?

ulenrich ... no, because "everyone knows that developers love cheese" is not the same as "everyone knows the sun is shining ... because the sun is shining" (which would be an a priori ... and none the less a weak proposition).

ulenrich wrote:
Should I bore you just to avoid "Logical fallacy"?

Just avoiding the fallacies would be enough, but making a substantive point would be appreciated.

ulenrich wrote:
For sure I write my sentences because I silently think "nobody sees"

Your not using your own private language, language serves a purpose, that purpose is to convey meaning ... not so that you can confirm your own solipsism.

best ... khay
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khay, please stop bullying ulenrich. It's enough to say that you believe that he's wrong and why. And, by "why," I don't mean dissecting his argument and sentence structure: this is not a debating society. Conversation on the Forums is colloquial, even when technical, and should not be held to the standards you're trying to apply. It's hurting the community when you take it to this extreme.

- John
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Khay, please stop bullying ulenrich. It's enough to say that you believe that he's wrong and why. And, by "why," I don't mean dissecting his argument and sentence structure: this is not a debating society. Conversation on the Forums is colloquial, even when technical, and should not be held to the standards you're trying to apply. It's hurting the community when you take it to this extreme.

John ... were it not for the fact that ulenrich persistently interjects comments such as "everyone knows the average Gentoo forum user loves to do it the opposite way round: Pick up some random facts to express his disgrace", and countless other unjustifiable, and essentially insulting, statements then he wouldn't need to be held to task. I have no time for that so I deal with it in the most economical way possible ... that is not "bullying", and I fail to see how this is "hurting the community" when practically everyone here can point to some time at which ulenrich has derailed a thread with similar "arguments".

If he directs such statements at me, quoting me, and presenting them as counter-arguments then I have every right to respond. I do so in short form because that is the best method of dealing with his form of "argumentation".

best ... khay
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm afraid that part of what you said turns out not to be the case. You do not have "every right": your rights are constrained by the Forum Guidelines, the core rules of netiquitte, and the Gentoo code of conduct. Furthermore, these references are not totally silent on your behavior exhibited above.

Now, that said, I promise to look more closely, now and in the future, at your reports about ulenrich (in particular) and others (in general).

- John
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I'm afraid that part of what you said turns out not to be the case. You do not have "every right": your rights are constrained by the Forum Guidelines, the core rules of netiquitte, and the Gentoo code of conduct. Furthermore, these references are not totally silent on your behavior exhibited above.

John ... I never suggested that this right was somehow excluded from such constraints, and while I don't deny I am curt, too the point, and otherwise exacting, I do not think that my behaviour constitutes a violation, in spirit or otherwise, of the guidelines, or CoC.

I've reported ulenrich many times in the past for violations, specifically for the type of trolling typified above, nothing has ever come of these reports, I assume because colloquial trolling is regarded as more beneficial to the community than logic, reason, counter-argument, etc, ... or the kind of treatment you have described as "bullying". I didn't turn my gaze on his arguments so as to hurt, intimidate, or ridicule, only so that their nature is not left in doubt. Now, I could refrain from doing that, I could call a troll a troll, ignore him completely (which I mostly do), etc, but I've seen enough of its effects (ie, causing one poster to want to abandon his a account due to one of his posts being re-contextualised by ulenrich for no other reason that to make an insinuation) to think that it should go unnoticed.

That is all I'm doing, drawing attention to his complete lack of argument, and as I said, I do so in a way that is the most economical. You can argue that its not my place, that I should try and address it via some other means, but that route has already been taken and nothing has come of it. So, unlike ulenrich I don't need to evoke "evil magicians" or compare him to a "cow in the herd being mad about the cow in front dictating the course", I have something far more factual, honest, and simple, at my command ... and that is basic argumentation skills, skills which are not, I sincerely hope, in violation of the forum guidelines.

EDIT: ... and if there is any doubt that I do not treat ulenrich cordially then this post from Feb 03 should lay that thought to rest.

best ... khay
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
I don't deny I am curt, too the point, and otherwise exacting,

The word you were looking for is "to", not "too", Doctor Exacting.
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tw04l124
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well in the adult world someone should learn not to react on everything which may be an insult.

MAybe you should learn to listen on the information side instead of the relationship side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-sides_model

I do not estimate that someone would verbally harass someone here on purpose, so better stick to the information side.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents, this issue is cold. Heating it up serves no purpose whastsoever. Locked.

- John
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