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Shamus397
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@yagami: I think you're missing the point. This isn't about Red Hat, or making money, or any of that. The point is that LP is forcing his way upon everyone else. Is he the devil? Of course not. But he should not be shaping the course of userland for all of Linux, and that's exactly what he and his followers are attempting to do. Ignoring what is happening is not an option, at least for anyone who cares about actually *having* the right not to have a bunch of fanatics determine what Linux is or isn't.

The unfortunate reality of the situation is that politics has and is shaping the debate, and on this front, it would seem that LP & Co. have won; just look at Debian and the false dichotomy they pushed there between systemd and upstart. If things had stayed on a strictly technical level, systemd wouldn't even have been a blip on anyone's radar and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Guess who pushed the politics? :P
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not good that systemd is being on big monolitic piece of software that does everything.

BUT ITS UNDERSTANDABLE ! ... linux is monolitic for a reason, and as i am a programmer, and i try to follow the "best practices rules", I KNOW that sometimes making everything loose couple and modular can really increase complexity and work ( and bugs ).
Systemd really has some nice features. PERIOD.
As someone said and i think its trully correct, systemd will go the patch of pulseaudio ... wait until version 4 and a new mantainer and then it will start to work as intended.

Shamus, i dont think that LP is forcing his way upon everyone else. I trully believe that Gentoo and Debian would not let themselves be forced that way. For "his followers" ... its their problem. I never liked "religious movements". They will try to determine what Linux is but they will never get it right. I see every day so much crap about linux and people spilling so much bullsh$t, talking like if they used it from the beggining and know all about it.

saellaven: Also, as long as its open source, the linux spirit will never die. But as long as people say things like that, its already dead. Dont play politics, dont curse the company, dont be a victim: dont like systemd -> dont use it.

if "Systemd takes over the world and is king" ? make a new linux with another init. be a rebel. be free. BUT dont go : "evil guy is trying to make a living and say good things about its software. and hey , its selling pretty well ! he is killing the spirit of linux !"

It isnt LP that is wrong ... no, HE IS THE SPIRIT OF LINUX. He is using his own right and freedom to scratch his own itch. Its the others, the Upstart and openRC that are failing by not keeping up and not putting a good fight ( and now the poor upstart devs :( didnt deserve that fate ).

You guys seem like all the others that insulted and spoutted crap on LINUS for linux not being a micro kernel. So what its monolitic ? so what it has bugs ? LP is a human being.

--------------------

For me ... perfect would be 50 distros using sysvinit, 50 distros using openrc, 50 distros using upstart and 50 distros using systemd.
Unfortunatly, seems sysvinit, openrc, upstart are dying... its not systemd's fault. ( except in case of ubuntu -> systemd case, since it was because of a debian committe decision , but that is debian / mark's fault, not LP).


Bottom line: I see this as evolution as in nature. And i trully believe that maybe systemd is a mistake and that distros will change again. But that is the way of nature and open source.

In no way i believe that LP is doing things in "back deals and covert deals".
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:

saellaven: Also, as long as its open source, the linux spirit will never die. But as long as people say things like that, its already dead. Dont play politics, dont curse the company, dont be a victim: dont like systemd -> dont use it.

if "Systemd takes over the world and is king" ? make a new linux with another init. be a rebel. be free. BUT dont go : "evil guy is trying to make a living and say good things about its software. and hey , its selling pretty well ! he is killing the spirit of linux !"

It isnt LP that is wrong ... no, HE IS THE SPIRIT OF LINUX. He is using his own right and freedom to scratch his own itch. Its the others, the Upstart and openRC that are failing by not keeping up and not putting a good fight ( and now the poor upstart devs :( didnt deserve that fate ).


And when everything is tied into and dependent upon systemd's embrace, extend, extinguish model? Should I have to maintain patchsets for everything from util-linux to firefox just because all future versions have become dependent upon systemd whether they really needed to or not?

It's not whether or not it's open source... it's about the lock-in and LP is on the record saying that he wants systemd to absorb lots of things, like udev, and sees a future where you cannot use any of that stuff without buying into all of systemd. Yep... today udev can be separated, for now. Tomorrow? Who knows.

Quote:

Bottom line: I see this as evolution as in nature. And i trully believe that maybe systemd is a mistake and that distros will change again. But that is the way of nature and open source.


At what expense to the Linux ecosystem? Look at all the headaches, effort and time wasted on just HAL... and that wasn't trying to be everything to everyone.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:

It's not whether or not it's open source... it's about the lock-in and LP is on the record saying that he wants systemd to absorb lots of things, like udev, and sees a future where you cannot use any of that stuff without buying into all of systemd. Yep... today udev can be separated, for now. Tomorrow? Who knows.


In the many references out of the systemd threads here, members of the systemd team have explicitely stated that they are trying to "drive" the Linux ecosystem, and basically their goal is to take over the direction of the entire stack above the kernel - one could say that they have aspirations of Microsoft-hood, because that's the exact model they're espousing.

What's surprising is that by and large, the community is going along with it, and only a few of us are rebelling. In an odd way, this may be viewed as an aspect of Linux' success. Many users have come onboard, who have no background in Unix culture or values - they're steeped in Windows and don't understand the inherent problems of that development model.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
yagami wrote:

saellaven: Also, as long as its open source, the linux spirit will never die. But as long as people say things like that, its already dead. Dont play politics, dont curse the company, dont be a victim: dont like systemd -> dont use it.

if "Systemd takes over the world and is king" ? make a new linux with another init. be a rebel. be free. BUT dont go : "evil guy is trying to make a living and say good things about its software. and hey , its selling pretty well ! he is killing the spirit of linux !"

It isnt LP that is wrong ... no, HE IS THE SPIRIT OF LINUX. He is using his own right and freedom to scratch his own itch. Its the others, the Upstart and openRC that are failing by not keeping up and not putting a good fight ( and now the poor upstart devs :( didnt deserve that fate ).


And when everything is tied into and dependent upon systemd's embrace, extend, extinguish model? Should I have to maintain patchsets for everything from util-linux to firefox just because all future versions have become dependent upon systemd whether they really needed to or not?

It's not whether or not it's open source... it's about the lock-in and LP is on the record saying that he wants systemd to absorb lots of things, like udev, and sees a future where you cannot use any of that stuff without buying into all of systemd. Yep... today udev can be separated, for now. Tomorrow? Who knows.

Quote:

Bottom line: I see this as evolution as in nature. And i trully believe that maybe systemd is a mistake and that distros will change again. But that is the way of nature and open source.


At what expense to the Linux ecosystem? Look at all the headaches, effort and time wasted on just HAL... and that wasn't trying to be everything to everyone.



Do the "Linux Way Thing" ... start anew of fork it! Or do like Linus and just say "F*ck You Nvid...er, Systemd"

Seriously , think about it: When Linus started it ... he didnt have anything... he just did it!.

SONNER OR LATER ... if systemd is that evil, everybody will turn against it. If it isnt that evil but crappy, someone will fork it and create a good systemd.

Maybe you were not here, or dont recall, but systemd is a little stone in the way compared to previous hurddles. Things like the Mightty War of the Compillers, or The Fall Of the Mighty Xfrees, those were big ones...

Really , i am not saying i am happy with it ... i surelly would love for systemd to be more modular and much "tinner" at its core. Would love for it to be a community driven effort , from everyone ( like the kernel is ) ... but ... that will not mess with my zen, man!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:

Do the "Linux Way Thing" ... start anew of fork it! Or do like Linus and just say "F*ck You Nvid...er, Systemd"

Seriously , think about it: When Linus started it ... he didnt have anything... he just did it!.


He had everything but the kernel...

Quote:

SONNER OR LATER ... if systemd is that evil, everybody will turn against it. If it isnt that evil but crappy, someone will fork it and create a good systemd.


As is, I don't think systemd can be a good thing, ever. Built into reusable, truly separate, replaceable pieces, maybe. But that's going to take someone with deep pockets or a lot of time... and the deep pockets have already rolled over rather than fight due to the religious zealotry of the systemd supporters.

Quote:

Maybe you were not here, or dont recall, but systemd is a little stone in the way compared to previous hurddles. Things like the Mightty War of the Compillers, or The Fall Of the Mighty Xfrees, those were big ones...


I was here... first experimented with Linux in 1993 and I've been using it full time for almost as long.

and systemd is MUCH, MUCH bigger than gcc going stale and being forked/replaced with egcs, XFree vs Xorg, libc vs glibc, etc. Those were merely differing implementations of standards where the fork succeeded because the original had stagnated. systemd is trying to get its tentacles into every aspect of userspace. If egcs and friends were pebbles, systemd is a mountain.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
Maybe you were not here, or dont recall, but systemd is a little stone in the way compared to previous hurddles. Things like the Mightty War of the Compillers, or The Fall Of the Mighty Xfrees, those were big ones...


I personally remember, I remember linus's first message as I was using minix and on the forum when I saw the message appear.
I've seen wars over emacs vs vi, I've used xfree86, watched gcc mature a lot, used borlands c compiler under windows, etc.
:lol: Gold old days.

Quote:
Really , i am not saying i am happy with it ... i surelly would love for systemd to be more modular and much "tinner" at its core. Would love for it to be a community driven effort , from everyone ( like the kernel is ) ... but ... that will not mess with my zen, man!


I would too, and I even downloaded the latest tarball, but I'm not sure how easy it will be to keep it current vis-a-vis patches, etc.
I'm sure it can be done (the splitting out into modular elements) not sure how much work is involved.
As my view is infrastructure core libs first, then components that build on that.

Might be easier to enhance openrc to do a little more of what systemd (the init portion) does
and keep udev/eudev/mdev, and add stuff like cgroup handling as separate programs.
No real need for them to be part of the init package, IMO.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven ... ok , this has been long ... i understand that you might feel that way , but its not my opinion also.

anon-e-moose ... yes , good old days ... but at the same time ... not so good :) let me not recall xfree.

borland ... yep builder c++ ( or what it was called ).

it might be easier to fix systemd... or might be easier to enchance openrc ... but what is funnier ? this is all about funtoo ? right ? :) ( i made a pun :) )
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@yagami: LP is the "Spirit of Linux"? You've GOT to be joking. This is the man who brought us the disaster that is PulseAudio, a solution that was in need of a problem.

Systemd is not evolution, it's a putsch. This is a small group pushing their agenda on everyone. You can say they're not pushing it on anyone but the facts speak for themselves (*cough*Debian*cough*).

OpenRC is not dying, it's actively maintained and it works well!

You're entitled to your opinion, just don't expect everyone to agree with it, especially if you're trying to reform LP's image. If LP's image is tarnished, it because the person that has done the most damage to his reputation is LP himself. Also, you're never going to convince anyone that what LP is doing is simply "scratching an itch". If that were true, there would be no discussion, there would be no politics, and this would be a non-issue.

You like systemd, we get it. Not everyone agrees with you, do you get that? :P
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
You like systemd, we get it. Not everyone agrees with you, do you get that? :P


ok ... got it !!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
As someone said and i think its trully correct, systemd will go the patch of pulseaudio ... wait until version 4 and a new mantainer and then it will start to work as intended.


Actually pulseaudio is still not working as intended. Just a few month ago, my audio on the laptop and skype on the desktop broke at roughly the same time. Pulseaudio is kinda nice, but with all the time I now invested to debug it (unsuccessfully), I likely could have configured jack-audio, and that would have actually given me a host of additional features.

systemd is a lot more complex than pulseaudio - and when it breaks I do not only lose audio: I have an unbootable system.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gotyaoi wrote:
steveL wrote:
You've said a couple of times that you have an interest in a slightly more modern openrc; effectively with an integrated monit or runit. Init said something similar. Why don't we just look at adding the bits we need, and testing it out incrementally?

My Shell-Fu is not the strongest, but I certainly like the sound of that idea and would like to help, even if only in a testing capacity.

That's great gotyaoi, motivated users are essential for QA. Could you take a look at what Anon-E-moose pointed out, if you can? I've never used monit, runit or s6; about the only thing I've used in this vein is xinetd many years ago. So it would be good to have info from people who have, and have some idea of exactly what they want to accomplish with it in a networked environment. ie what kind of checks, events to react to, and presumably any service can be run via "socket activation" or xinetd-functionality.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Ran across this when reading something else https://github.com/qnikst/openrc/compare/s-vision

It's a patch about adding monit to openrc.

Excellent :) qnikst's work is what I was thinking of wrt keeping the old cgroup interface (with delete_on_release); I recall him saying that it was easy enough to do, but he didn't think the new setup as modified for systemd, would be as nice to work with. So I'd consider his work as "source we need to save" before the big switch to a crippled kernel impl, and something we need to keep working.

Not sure about starting monit directly from inittab, but I guess it would only be another process in the same place, perhaps with more awareness of openrc.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL, qnikst's blog about this is at http://qnikst.github.io/posts/2013-11-06-openrc-supervision.html

From that blog
Quote:
The role of the supervision in the init systems becomes crusial. And many administrators wants some kind of s-vision support from the scratch. Here are some thoughts about this problem and a way how things will be solved inside OpenRC.


I ran across a mention of this somewhere else where it was thought that this might be included in openrc-0.13
(if it's not squelched in favor of forcing everyone to use systemd), but don't have the link where I read it handy.

The link to the code in github is in the post where you quoted me.

I don't know what the longterm status of openrc is, but I'm pretty sure that bsd people as well as those who
choose not to use systemd for whatever reason might be interested in this.

Edit to add: that's not a link to the github, re: above, but the diffs and patchs (don't know if all or only partial)
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Last edited by Anon-E-moose on Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArneBab wrote:
systemd is a lot more complex than pulseaudio - and when it breaks I do not only lose audio: I have an unbootable system.

Well said. The insanity of having all that logic in pid 1, when you've submitted a patch which was included nearly 2 years ago to mean that's not necessary, is beyond me. (Still waiting for that shoe to drop..)

It'd be hilarious if it weren't being proposed for the One True Userland, and apparently being taken seriously by people one would have thought would know better. After all, distros position themselves as gatekeepers to FLOSS. Surely they should have a bit more experience of the twists and turns to know better than to put all their eggs in one over-complexified basket? Didn't HAL and PulseAudio teach people anything, or is masochistic bug-fixing over a period of years ("version 4 with a new maintainer might work") somehow an indicator of good software now?

edit: cheers, moose, reading it now.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://github.com/qnikst/openrc/tree/s-vision
or
https://github.com/qnikst/openrc/archive/s-vision.zip for the zip file
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you're saying, other than that OpenRC appears to have a life outside of Gentoo.

It's also interesting to see that he has removed networking from OpenRC, and presumably not just by moving it to netifrc. On other threads here in the Gentoo forums I see people starting their networking without the Gentoo scripts, notably using expanded capabilities of dhcpcd, also by the same author.

1 - Does anyone have a take on using dhcpcd instead of netifrc to start networking? (According to one thread, you can also do static IP using dhcpcd.)

2 - Has anyone tried to resubmit the "separate /usr" patch to OpenRC?

3 - Earlier in this thread there appeared to be a patch submitted 2 years ago by L.P. which appeared to maee it easier to track/managed daemons, perhaps not by PID 1. Daemon management has been cited as a weakness of OpenRC. How does this patch interact, or is there some other daemon managedment tool which could be adapted to work with OpenRC. (I presume not daemontools, since DJB stuff generally works with DJB, and not much else.)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I am not an experienced software developer at all, I am neither judging nor approving the comments from user 'voronaam':
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1y40c1/wich_distro_are_still_commited_to_not_using/
But still I think they are interesting to read.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, mayak.

It's always funny to read the systemd fanboi justifications and obfuscations in discussions. :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was fan boi shortly for systemd.... i have it on the system still for writing wikis to instigate threads such as this... but i was reading through some documentation about init process, and it just really made systemd sound like a very bad idea. kitchen sink init vs crash proof tiny init. systemd being everything and the kitchen sink, calling dbus etc. i do feel some reassurance though that it will get better as so many are switching to it, that it will accelerate progress.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re dhcpcd.

This may not be relevant depontius, but I tried systemd/ Gnome to see what all the fuss was about and the only service I needed to enable to get the network up was dhcpcd, and all that seems to do it start dhcpcd. The dhcpcd docs indicate this should be all one needs.

But a problem I have with systemd is I don't really understand how exactly it does what it does, so who knows what else systemd (+ udev) is automatically doing at start-up to help things along.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Thanks for the link, mayak.

It's always funny to read the systemd fanboi justifications and obfuscations in discussions. :lol:


honestly ( and i am breaking my promisse to not reply anymore ), but i dont see any fanboi on that conversation.

thanks mayak for the link and voronaam for the interesting conversation.

I myself have the same opinion as voronaam on that conversation. And grayfade ( the systemd fanboiii ) was fair in accepting the right of voronaam's answers. ( it ends up with :"Thank you for giving me something productive to talk about. :) These are exactly the kinds of things I wanted to hear.").

this is exactly what i was talking about.

in the thread i am already marked as a system fanboi ( no, shamus , you didnt get me , but i got you ... i dont think you can get anything , you just see people that like or hate systemd ),

but if people talk like voronaam and explain what their problem is, more users would accept the asnwer like grayfade.

Currently the "You are a fanboi of systemd, we get it" or "LP Nazzi hittler corrupting all the linux movement" or "RH killer of linux" is not getting anywhere.

If anything, i am just trying to say : "please improve the message that systemd is not a stable and valid solution for the future." ( maybe it is, where the hell of systemd is completly refactored, but not currently ).

Please , gentoo users , reason like voronaam. dont insult devs ( there is never any reason to insult them, they are doing it on their free time and out of love also ) or leave gentoo.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ps:

just read more answers to voronaam, and yes those are completly trollish...

but those will ever exist ... there is nothing one can do about that kind of people. IMPORTANT IS NOT TO BECOME LIKE THEM even if right.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the proper term, "systemd fanboi" for the trolls of that thread
especially many of those responding to voronaam.

I wasn't using it in a general term, certainly not towards you yagami, or 666,
though there are a couple of trolls on this site.

I don't use the label fanboi, simply for someone using systemd or liking it,
it's more when there's no thought in a reply other than you're "an LP hater"
or "you hate progress" or some such silly response.

I neither like nor dislike systemd, it's simply a fricking program.
I don't like the way it's been foisted upon the linux ecosystem, but that's my prerogative.
Just as it is my choice to not use in my systems, and it is your choice to possibly use it.

Anyway, moving on. 8)

Edit to add: I don't insult devs, just to do so.
But when they become trolls themselves, which a couple have done, I'll point it out.
If they don't like being called trolls, then they need to quit doing things that make them appear that way.
And yes, I'm probably a troll in someone elses eyes, but I don't get all upset over it.
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Shamus397
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 127
Location: Ur-th

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a Funtoo system over here that uses dhcpcd with OpenRC and it works quite well. You can still configure a static IP by creating a symlink to /etc/init.d/netif.tmpl (something like /etc/init.d/netif.eth0, e.g.) and you can configure that static IP with /etc/conf.d/netif.eth0.

If you have no need for a static IP, dhcpcd works well here, you basically have to configure nothing; it just works(TM). ;) OK, you do have to set it in the default runlevel using rc-update, but life isn't fair now, is it? ;)

It's all explained here. I need to test migrate one of my Gentoo systems over to use this. Will post results if anyone is interested. :)
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yagami
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 12 May 2002
Posts: 193
Location: Leiria, Portugal

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
I've got a Funtoo system over here that uses dhcpcd with OpenRC and it works quite well. You can still configure a static IP by creating a symlink to /etc/init.d/netif.tmpl (something like /etc/init.d/netif.eth0, e.g.) and you can configure that static IP with /etc/conf.d/netif.eth0.

If you have no need for a static IP, dhcpcd works well here, you basically have to configure nothing; it just works(TM). ;) OK, you do have to set it in the default runlevel using rc-update, but life isn't fair now, is it? ;)

It's all explained here. I need to test migrate one of my Gentoo systems over to use this. Will post results if anyone is interested. :)


I have the same experience: Funtoo networking worked very well to me also.

Their bootupdate is a little different: its extremelly simple and easy, but i wanted to do a little customization and could not make it. But i didnt read all the docs, so maybe its my fault.

I have done some migrations from gentoo -> funtoo and vice versa. Its extremelly easy and managed to get a clean environment after each migration ( not a hibrid of the two ).

I think you should be able with migrate your gentoo systems to funtoo with no problems.

I just wished some features of funtoo came upstream to gentoo ( hello git sync :) )
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