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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of attack vectors, I don't think adding a UI scripting engine in to the base system authorisation layer is such a hot idea. We've already seen a bug with libmozjs failing, and javascript is both a) notoriously difficult to do right, and b) in a state of flux wrt all the new models etc being added for HTML5. I wonder how long it will be before we see attacks using that, to get a "shell" or in this case a js execution context, with all that entails such as dynamic functions and the requirement to run unknown functions via setTimeout. After all, automated early-boot is mainly useful for bindists, so there'll be known binaries to look for and attack.

And of course, it's a whole new language to learn for administrators. Seems to me that if the problem you're trying to overcome is crappy shell scripts, it's much easier to hire some professional scripters to fix it at the distro level, than switch to a whole new language, notorious/loved for its laxity, and expect admins to write decent scripts in that. What on earth makes anyone think admins are going to be any better at writing js than sh?

Bear in mind, sh has been running Unix systems since the days of a 64KB address-space, which was more RAM than anyone could afford. It's no pig: just the crappy scripts are, beloved of those who learnt from tldp ABS (the worst guide to BASH anywhere, responsible for many a burst vein in #bash ;) They refuse to accept they've learnt from a dud source, and instead blame shell for their ignorance.

From that faulty premise flows the pretext for systemd-kitchen_sink, along with all the workaround on top of workaround to make the flawed design work; just so long as we never admit a mistake.

"it appears that /run/nofiles is supposed to be removed by systemd-user-sessions.service" just makes me think services are being used to replace a line of shellscript.
Code:
<pekster> Yes, more systemd-user-sessions.service. Exactly what we want.
<pekster> Since when is init responsible for session-level things? :\

Give me openrc anyday.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From August 19, 2012

Quote:
Then I read that udev is now being added to the systemd code, and Red Hat is sounding like they won’t support it unless you integrate it with systemd. Next, I read that systemd is now being expanded to replace consolekit/policykit!

It makes me wonder, now that a few Red Hat employees seem to be in control of the core components used by most distributions, what is their game?


Link to original article -> http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/red-hat-flag/
---

I hadn't seen this before but I think we've now got a handle on what RH's game is.


Edit to add: I do like reading some of his posts, link to main site -> http://igurublog.wordpress.com/
I'm reading one on udisks2 now.
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Last edited by Anon-E-moose on Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And an interesting (to me) article, as it pretty much says what I've been thinking and saying for a while, all without reading it before

Link -> http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/gtk-fesses-up-this-aint-for-you-qt-takes-over-the-world/

Quote:
To me, all of this powerful corporate drive to support ‘cross-platform’ development is merely a game to turn Linux into Windows – to make it so it doesn’t matter what you run, you’re still running a Google product. Google is the new Microsoft. It amazes me how many Linux users think Google is their friend. The Linux community has really become nothing short of stupid, absorbing corporate press releases like populations absorb propaganda. They can’t see even the most obvious attacks, and give their full support to their own demise.

I think it’s safe to say that any spirit of freedom and diversity that once drove Linux is dead. The new people entering the realm of development in Linux are just Windows developers looking for a larger base and more money, or simply corporate whores tearing it apart for short-sighted, malicious goals (which they themselves understand very poorly). They care not for any of the principles that made Linux what it is, or was.

So Linux has been lost because the community has failed to protect it and help it grow. And this isn’t just about toolkits – the infection goes deep into the kernel, udev, the init system, and other areas. In the next few years any remaining GNU Linux users who even know what a principle is, will need to find a new home.

Meanwhile, while you still have a non-Google-implanted brain, you might want to try to figure out why corporations want to (and have always wanted to) completely control the software and abilities of your computer. And you might want to consider differences between Windows and Linux beyond how widgets look. They once represented very different visions of the personal computer.


Hmmm, though RH works if substituted for the term Google in the artlcle :lol:


Edit to add: Yes, I know my last few posts might be technically off topic but IMO they do tie into the whole systemd paradigm
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Speaking of attack vectors, I don't think adding a UI scripting engine in to the base system authorisation layer is such a hot idea.

That whole policykit/polkit fiasco is another thing that's driven me crazy. *WHY* anyone would want to put Javascript into a system-level tool is way beyond me. The maintainer of polkit even gave quick mentions to Lua, Perl, and Python, but jumped right over them to go Javascript. Not only do they continue to find bugs in Javascript, but the language itself is subject to a great degree of churn.

I have a good bit of experience in Javascript and can do a lot with it. Closures and first-class functions are nice. However, I *hate* working in it. I really wish it weren't basically the only choice for scripting browsers. It's a pain to debug and it's prone to act in stupid ways. The language's designer, Brendan Eich, made a lot of bone-headed decisions early on in the design of the language and continues to press for more bone-headedness. I'd really like to get far away from that language. Having a dependency on it inside of a system tool is an awful thing.

I looked to polkit's configure file and see that there is no way to turn off its Javascript dependency.

So for now polkit still exists as an independent package. I see the rumblings about its impending assimilation into systemd; I'm surprised it hasn't happend already.

There's a thing that mystifies me: if systemd is all about purely declarative configurations, why not polkit?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is really sad to read, but i think his analysis is right ..... :(
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
steveL wrote:
Speaking of attack vectors, I don't think adding a UI scripting engine in to the base system authorisation layer is such a hot idea.

That whole policykit/polkit fiasco is another thing that's driven me crazy. *WHY* anyone would want to put Javascript into a system-level tool is way beyond me. The maintainer of polkit even gave quick mentions to Lua, Perl, and Python, but jumped right over them to go Javascript. Not only do they continue to find bugs in Javascript, but the language itself is subject to a great degree of churn.

I have a good bit of experience in Javascript and can do a lot with it. Closures and first-class functions are nice. However, I *hate* working in it. I really wish it weren't basically the only choice for scripting browsers. It's a pain to debug and it's prone to act in stupid ways. The language's designer, Brendan Eich, made a lot of bone-headed decisions early on in the design of the language and continues to press for more bone-headedness. I'd really like to get far away from that language. Having a dependency on it inside of a system tool is an awful thing.

I looked to polkit's configure file and see that there is no way to turn off its Javascript dependency.

So for now polkit still exists as an independent package. I see the rumblings about its impending assimilation into systemd; I'm surprised it hasn't happend already.

There's a thing that mystifies me: if systemd is all about purely declarative configurations, why not polkit?


I have a pet hypothesis about "configuration languages"... Call it "Pontius' Law of Application-Specific Shorthand" - "Every limited spedial-purpose computer language aspires to Turing Completeness."

Many years ago on mainframes, I worked with a text markup language called "Script/VS". It's whole reason in life was to format text for printing, and that's what it was specialized for. But somewhere along the line it acquired enough extensions to become (I presume) Turing Complete. Somewhere after that, a simple text markup language was used as the implementation for a completely different type of markup language, SGML. I wrote several Style Files back in the day, and it was amazing/amusing what Script/VS was capable of.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I've been looking at this thing backwards. What is it in Gnome 3.10+ that is depending on in systemd that is absolutely vital to a good desktop experience? I think if that question can be answered, perhaps this whole systemd question can possibly be sidestepped. :)

For example, in KDE-land, you can remove all the *kit stuff from your system and the DE still works just fine. You don't get notifications from the DE about USB plug events or power events (if you're on laptop), but that's OK in my book (and there's probably a way to patch that system to use something more sane like udevil for USB stuff).

Rather than worry about systemd taking over Linux, let's figure out how to bypass it, route around the damage. ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:54 pm    Post subject: Here's a very hopeful thing Reply with quote

I found this item posted today to Slashdot as a confirmation of what I had been thinking about Debian's possible moves:
Quote:
And by the way, there has never been a declaration that Debian will support *only one* init system. Just that systemd will be the default for Jessie. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone willing to help the Debian OpenRC team is welcome to do so (by developing OpenRC, testing it in Debian, writing runscripts, etc.).


A strong effort is important; it is not the time for quietism. Consider this post from HelloWorld in LVM:
Quote:
Given the current state of affairs where pretty much every major distro has switched or will switch to systemd, it is a *fact* that distros who don't adopt systemd are causing fragmentation. This is not a matter of opinion any longer. What is a matter of opinion is whether this fragmentation is good or bad. I think it's bad, and so does Lennart Poettering, and that's his prerogative and you shouldn't flame him for doing that.

He's one of the worst, actually. In another post to the same article, he says, "it's people like *you* who would like to force people like the gnome and Debian developers to continue to maintain and support software stacks that they themselves consider obsolete." As we can see from the Slashdot quote, he's assuming too much of the Debian developers.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Here's a very hopeful thing Reply with quote

miket wrote:
I found this item posted today to Slashdot as a confirmation of what I had been thinking about Debian's possible moves:
Quote:
And by the way, there has never been a declaration that Debian will support *only one* init system. Just that systemd will be the default for Jessie. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone willing to help the Debian OpenRC team is welcome to do so (by developing OpenRC, testing it in Debian, writing runscripts, etc.).


I wonder how long it will stay as just the default choice rather than just being the only choice.

From what I've read sytemd was voted down, but one or more of the top level devs kept bringing it up until...well, you see the result.
I doubt very seriously that they are going to stop until there is no choice at least as far as using packages.

My recommendation is to get all the source code and ebuilds that are needed to keep your system the way you choose and save it.
cd's, backup disks, etc.

I continue to hope that Linus has a long and fruitful life, I shudder to think how twisted linux would get
if RH or LP or some one else like them were to gain the power to truly shape the kernel.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Using systemd and getting rid of all the extraneous garbage, ie, logging, and whatever else isn't truly part of init
wouldn't be that hard.

In either case, the way gentoo has been doing things, with sysvinit/openrc has been working well
and offers ~90% of what systemd claims. The only things that really would be needed, IMO
is to add checking for daemons dying and restarting them, and if memory serves, that was
being done by separate programs for a very long time. So it shouldn't be that hard.

If I were so inclined to do that, I would also split out logind and cgroup handling and offer that
as a separate program. Not part of the init package.

The good thing is with a lot of work, one would probably be able to split out the parts.
The first step would be modularization, as I've spoken of before, core services/libs then the other
parts that talk to that. The only thing making me hesitate to do that is that they would be able to take
any good ideas that I or others have and combine them into their kitchen sink.

You've said a couple of times that you have an interest in a slightly more modern openrc; effectively with an integrated monit or runit. Init said something similar. Why don't we just look at adding the bits we need, and testing it out incrementally?

Wrt cgroups, I personally think we're better off with the existing setup, so in terms of "saving source code" we'd start from there, at least for that subsystem, and add delete_on_release in-kernel (which has already been pointed out as easy). If we're doing that, we might as well add an /etc/mactab in-kernel impl as well (I can get someone to do that, if no-one else wants to do it.) Personally I don't have any use for logind/consolekit nonsense, so I'd rather patch kdelibs not to need it, iff that's even needed in the more modular KF5.

KDE will never lose its cross-platform ability as it's a showcase for Qt and that has no value if it's tied to a specific platform, let alone an init-system, however enthusiastic certain devs might get. It would be good to have an overlay with KDE, and no semantic-desktop, no *kit and no systemd required. We could easily provide an openrc-monit package (that integrates socket activation, and knows it's being run in the same way as rc-update from init) as well, and it would be a much more productive use of our time. More fun too ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My personal opinion, the whole consolekit/polkit/logind garbage has a very small footprint,
that is the number of people running any type of multi-user system that needs that is incredibly small.

And quite frankly there were other options that were as good, and in some cases better than the
crapware that they've foisted upon the desktop. Certainly no server needs any of the kits or
logind for that matter, it's strictly desktop driven. The same thing goes for cgroups, while it may
make some desktops audio sound better, it's of very limited use in most companies that use servers
as those are generally single purpose machines, ie database or web-server or whatever.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
You've said a couple of times that you have an interest in a slightly more modern openrc; effectively with an integrated monit or runit. Init said something similar. Why don't we just look at adding the bits we need, and testing it out incrementally?

Wrt cgroups, I personally think we're better off with the existing setup, so in terms of "saving source code" we'd start from there, at least for that subsystem, and add delete_on_release in-kernel (which has already been pointed out as easy). If we're doing that, we might as well add an /etc/mactab in-kernel impl as well (I can get someone to do that, if no-one else wants to do it.) Personally I don't have any use for logind/consolekit nonsense, so I'd rather patch kdelibs not to need it, iff that's even needed in the more modular KF5.

KDE will never lose its cross-platform ability as it's a showcase for Qt and that has no value if it's tied to a specific platform, let alone an init-system, however enthusiastic certain devs might get. It would be good to have an overlay with KDE, and no semantic-desktop, no *kit and no systemd required. We could easily provide an openrc-monit package (that integrates socket activation, and knows it's being run in the same way as rc-update from init) as well, and it would be a much more productive use of our time. More fun too ;)

My Shell-Fu is not the strongest, but I certainly like the sound of that idea and would like to help, even if only in a testing capacity.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would seem that the kernel guys aren't all that thrilled about what LP & Co. are doing either. From the LWN story on Debian's "vote" for systemd (link):
Quote:
This isn't just a technical debate. I think that this exchange really hits the core of the systemd divide.

from Joyuh

>> Well, the *whole* point of systemd is to have a way to have leverage over the policy of ALL distributions and ALL userland, to allow to implement innovations that are instantly adopted on all Linux systems (being an "init system" is merely incidental).

from viro

> ... which makes a lot of people very nervous about the position of power it puts Lennart et.al.

with more details at https://lwn.net/Articles/585428/

I'm with viro on this, NOBODY should have that sort of power over ALL Linux distributions.

David Lang

I'm all for testing of bits & pieces; if I have time, I may even roll a patch for KDE's notifier for udevil (instead of udisks). :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for a link to the article, Shamus397.

Viro makes sense, unfortunately he's arguing with a systemd fanboi troll.

Edit to add: That was certainly an interesting read (just got done with all the comments)
Now I understand where a certain few gentoo developers get their "debate" skills :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It won't help the discussion much, but I really like the last comment from "Triston J. Taylor" in this Google+ post:
https://plus.google.com/107672941537404681483/posts/SxySEBxDrn5
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link, I like this from one of the comments

Quote:
I filed a bug on this and it was eventually closed with a message which pretty much comes down to 'I don't need it, so it's not important for anyone else either'.
...
All the technical arguments combined with the brush every argument aside and ridiculing every alternative project with the "I am on a sacred mission and only I know what is right" attitude, that systemd is being pushed with, is really not helping convincing skeptics.


Yes, the arrogance of the systemd developers is arguably the worst thing about it.
If they didn't think of something, then anyone elses suggestion is worthless, just another variation of the NIH syndrome.
And if they don't use a feature, why you're a moron for needing it.
:roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
You've said a couple of times that you have an interest in a slightly more modern openrc; effectively with an integrated monit or runit. Init said something similar. Why don't we just look at adding the bits we need, and testing it out incrementally?


Ran across this when reading something else https://github.com/qnikst/openrc/compare/s-vision

It's a patch about adding monit to openrc.

Edit to add: I'm going to try and limit my participation in these debates as they're becoming a big waste of my time.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

Edit to add: I'm going to try and limit my participation in these debates as they're becoming a big waste of my time.


I would have thought so to, but now I'm not so sure. I suspect that there actually is value to the noise.

The Gentoo Powers That Be now know that there are people opposed to systemd - people that will leave Gentoo if it's shoved down our throats.

We're just little guys, and I'm sure systemd fanbois would categorize us as "takers" as well as "haters", because we don't own OSS projects. But now some of the core kernel people are starting to weight in with discomfort about systemd - Al Viro for one, and somewhere on one of these threads another reasonably prominent kernel developer has recently weighed in. Linus has of course registered his opinion of binary logging, but has so far kept otherwise silent. Bruce Schneier probably hasn't even heard of the impending monoculture of a giant package like systemd, but I'm sure that whenever he weighs in it will be interesting.

So far systemd has been in its "honeymoon phase" and has been able to mow over any and all opposition. That situation will not persist forever. In this particular case, the noise actually helps.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@mayak: Thank you for that link. Mr. Taylor pretty much destroys all the systemd rhetoric coming Poettering and his gang of fanboys. This part pretty much sums it up:
Quote:
The only thing systemd has effectively accomplished, is diminishing the defacto fine grained system control and secure customization through optional proprietary systems, It has also succeeded at bloating the available user land memory as well as consuming a good deal of the software that makes ALL of our hardware useful to a user. This is an extreme security+stability flaw at its finest.

This is a no win situation. Not even for Lennart. This problem is only going to continue to evolve into something inherently non-unix, and the trend will make it all the way back to user land by proxy of implementation. I see this all the time in coding. You get these new kids on the block with huge ambitions but who also lack the wisdom and experience required to actually manage their situation effectively.

Of course this only gets worse when they suffer from a God Complex, the feeling of inferiority enforces a behavior that demands more and more control until there is nothing left for anyone else. That is to say IF the host does not reject the parasite, recognizing it for what it is.

Really well worth reading the Mr. Taylors whole post. :) Of course, Mr. Poettering popped into that thread, telling people to suck it up:
Quote:
+Nikolai Kondrashov I am sorry, but I am not buying this claim that making something simpler was a bad thing because a number of people understood the complex version of it, and don't want or don't need the simplification. We try to keep the big picture in mind (and we have to, that's our job).

It's IT we are doing here. It is a quickly changing field. Insisting that everything stays exactly the same as 1983 when sysvinit was created, because that's what you know is an attitude that just doesn't work in IT.

I think that given enough rope this guy will eventually hang himself. :P Personally, I'm not going to wait for that to happen. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.... I think i have read all the forum posts about systemd !!

AND ITS SAD ! ... 5% are good technical posts, very much worth the reading.

another is the complete debate over Google / RH / Lennart , etc.

( by the way , good point annonymouse.... just switch Microsoft / Google / RH / openSUSE / Apple / Ubuntu and that rant still fints )

is openrc the right way ? maybe ...

is systemd wrong ? maybe ...

is systemd crap ? maybe ...

but for the love of g*d .... is LENNART THE SON OF HITTLER ? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

stop making people look like the devil.

its a vision, some people will like it some not. Those that dont like it, have to come up with another ... you know , kinda like Linus did. He didnt insult Apple or Microsoft, he did "his" vision.

maybe Lennart is a crappy developer ... maybe RH wants to make money ( evil nazi bastards, you want money for your work , how dare you ).

Honestly ... the irony of saying "diversity and freedom" on linux is dead.... !!! I guess its only alive when everybody is doing what you want.

FREEDOM MEANS FREEDOM..... free to do openrc , systemd, upstart , Xorg, wayland, mir, etc!

let them be ... just dont use their software.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
but for the love of g*d .... is LENNART THE SON OF HITTLER ? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

stop making people look like the devil.

its a vision, some people will like it some not. Those that dont like it, have to come up with another ... you know , kinda like Linus did. He didnt insult Apple or Microsoft, he did "his" vision.

maybe Lennart is a crappy developer ... maybe RH wants to make money ( evil nazi bastards, you want money for your work , how dare you ).

Honestly ... the irony of saying "diversity and freedom" on linux is dead.... !!! I guess its only alive when everybody is doing what you want.

FREEDOM MEANS FREEDOM..... free to do openrc , systemd, upstart , Xorg, wayland, mir, etc!

let them be ... just dont use their software.


You get a chuckle out of me for the above. :lol:

These are my personal views, just mine. :)

I don't consider LP much of anything, I don't know the man, other than by his software and his posts here and there.
Neither of which makes me think too highly of him, but that's my choice also.

I don't fault RH for wanting to make money, that is what a corp does.
I don't like the trying to turn linux into some bastardized version of windows a good thing, but if others want it, they can have it.

I've simply chosen not to have it on my system, not systemd, not new versions of udev, not gnome or kde for that matter.

Anyway, thanks for the chuckle and it is pretty much spot-on.
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yagami
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
yagami wrote:
but for the love of g*d .... is LENNART THE SON OF HITTLER ? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

stop making people look like the devil.

its a vision, some people will like it some not. Those that dont like it, have to come up with another ... you know , kinda like Linus did. He didnt insult Apple or Microsoft, he did "his" vision.

maybe Lennart is a crappy developer ... maybe RH wants to make money ( evil nazi bastards, you want money for your work , how dare you ).

Honestly ... the irony of saying "diversity and freedom" on linux is dead.... !!! I guess its only alive when everybody is doing what you want.

FREEDOM MEANS FREEDOM..... free to do openrc , systemd, upstart , Xorg, wayland, mir, etc!

let them be ... just dont use their software.


You get a chuckle out of me for the above. :lol:

These are my personal views, just mine. :)

I don't consider LP much of anything, I don't know the man, other than by his software and his posts here and there.
Neither of which makes me think too highly of him, but that's my choice also.

I don't fault RH for wanting to make money, that is what a corp does.
I don't like the trying to turn linux into some bastardized version of windows a good thing, but if others want it, they can have it.

I've simply chosen not to have it on my system, not systemd, not new versions of udev, not gnome or kde for that matter.

Anyway, thanks for the chuckle and it is pretty much spot-on.


heh :)

Yes, its only your personal views, and its your right... and gentoo is here for you and i hope it continues to.

I for example... am a dead on KDE guy... i simply love it. Its a very customized KDE ( not the default look in any way ) but ... just love my desktop. But saying that... i completly defend the right for Gnome/XFCE/LXDE/Unity etc to exist!

Its freedom, diversity, and i know that other people have different tastes/priorities.

What i dont like is like in your spot on text: people claiming others are removing freedom and diversity by creating !

Its like saying i am not racist as long as everybody is white! ( hope this doesnt sound bad ... its just an example! )

the Google way is just a diverse path ( by the way , doesnt google use gentoo ? ), the RH way is just another diverse path from My gentoo path. ( and yours of course ).

Its not my way, but i defend their right to exist!
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depontius
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:

What i dont like is like in your spot on text: people claiming others are removing freedom and diversity by creating !

Its like saying i am not racist as long as everybody is white! ( hope this doesnt sound bad ... its just an example! )


I have no objection whatsoever to L.P. and company creating systemd, more power to them

I object to their trying to shove it down my throat. I also object to systemd fanbois calling me a "hater", or "tard", or stick-in-the-mud trying to stop innovation. Ask anyone I work with, and I pass the "innovation test". I have quite a few grey hairs, and have attemted to achieve some of the wisdom that can come with them, to know that sometimes "innovation" can be false. I've done it myseif, and learned that lesson the hard way.

For me computing is technical - and political. I'm not as extreme as RMS, but I have definite tendencies in that direction. So L.P. and company are provoking a "pry it from my cold dead hands" reaction from me. I feel threatened, and personally I think I'm remaining quite civil in the face of it.

Worst of all, I really like some of the concepts underlying systemd. If there were a "systemd done right" (largely partitioning and packaging changes) I'd be an early adopter.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
FREEDOM MEANS FREEDOM..... free to do openrc , systemd, upstart , Xorg, wayland, mir, etc!

let them be ... just dont use their software.

....

Yes, its only your personal views, and its your right... and gentoo is here for you and i hope it continues to.

Its freedom, diversity, and i know that other people have different tastes/priorities.

What i dont like is like in your spot on text: people claiming others are removing freedom and diversity by creating !



That's the thing about systemd... I find it technically inferior (and I've repeatedly stated the ways I've found it technologically inferior in the past, I'm not going to rehash the debate endlessly), which would have no affect on me, since I refuse to use it...

BUT

because systemd is intent on taking over my entire system (look at how it already absorbed udev, *kit, etc and is currently tied into GNOME and in the future likely Wayland, etc), I see it as aggressively hostile in removing my choice, my freedom, etc as time goes on. How long before firefox requires systemd to view video because of DRM (as flash requires HAL)? The systemd devs are hell bent on using as much leverage as they can to essentially take over the entire linux userspace, removing virtually all choice (unless your choice will be to use older software because newer versions have now tied into systemd).

If I wanted to be limited to the one true way on how things are supposed to be done, I'd be using Windows. Every distro switching to systemd is writing its own death warrant since, at that point, you might as well just use some flavor of Red Hat (RHEL, Centos, Fedora) and that includes Gentoo, if Gentoo makes the decision to make systemd a first class citizen and everything else something less, since, well, there's little customization to be had as systemd keeps taking over more of the system.

Me, I'll go back to my pre-Gentoo days where I simply rolled all of my own systems from scratch, or maybe play with BSD more to see if that supports my needs better... but it'll be a sad day for me since the very spirit of linux will be dead.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
What i dont like is like in your spot on text: people claiming others are removing freedom and diversity by creating


I don't think I've made that claim, because I certainly don't believe that way (not saying you think I do, but clarifying my stance)

I think the pushing of it by almost all distros is seen as removing freedom and diversity though,
especially in the case of systemd, and RH is indeed behind that, by way of developers and
the money they throw at it. I haven''t looked at the latest RH, Ubuntu, etc distros that
have systemd as default init, and don't know if they even offer sysvinit and the corresponding
init scripts anymore. If they do, then choice is still there, though it may be difficult to get rid of
it even if not using gnome, if not, then by that very fact, it's hard to say that freedom and diversity
is there, at least if one continues to use that particular distro.
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