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RazielFMX
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be perfectly honest, and to rehash some points made already, Red Hat is a corporate operating system. When most people talk about a Linux server, they are talking RHEL.

As a corporate entity who is clearly focused on their bottom line, it is more cost effective to only support and develop one way of doing this across all possible deployments (be it a server or desktop). This gives Red Hat the ability to get more out of their developers.

Many people have already pointed out that this is making Linux a whole lot more like Windows, and I completely agree. But, if you look at the two major desktop players, both have only one true way of doing things (Windows and OSX). Even Ubuntu forces choices upon you that you may not like (I remember when they first switched to Empathy from Pidgin and uninstalling Empathy broke your compatibility with Ubuntu and you would no longer get system updates).

The biggest problem with systemd is not that it is a 'One True Way' but that it is tightly coupled with itself. There is no clear tier of dependencies or segregation of duties. This is why systemd is a terrible idea; vertical integration is not the right way to go. The 'One True Way' should be a suite of tools that we can pick and choose which ones we want/need to use on our system.

That being said, I do not believe a "One True Way" is necessary for Linux at this time. One of the strengths of Linux has always been the freedom of choice. Competition creates innovation. Linux will never be (nor should it even try to be) OSX. Linux should never be (though Red Hat wants it to be) Windows. If the day comes where a "One True Way" is required, it should be modular and collaborative and not the creation of one corporate shill who has a higher than is healthy opinion of himself.

Code:

$ find /etc/portage -type f -exec fgrep systemd {} /dev/null \;
/etc/portage/make.conf:session -sqlite svg svga -systemd \
/etc/portage/package.mask:sys-apps/systemd
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:
To be perfectly honest, and to rehash some points made already, Red Hat is a corporate operating system. When most people talk about a Linux server, they are talking RHEL.


True, though most corporations won't let themselves be on the bleeding edge of any distro.
They're most likely still on the older versions of RHEL, and using things still based on sysv init (long proven) instead of systemd.
If the past places I've worked for are any indication, they will look long and hard to see if systemd based RHEL will fit their bill,
when they get to that point. If not they will either stick with what they have (not upgrade) or they will look for another solution.

Quote:
As a corporate entity who is clearly focused on their bottom line, it is more cost effective to only support and develop one way of doing this across all possible deployments (be it a server or desktop). This gives Red Hat the ability to get more out of their developers


But RH's bottom line isn't the same as the corporations that they have been selling to.
I firmly believe that they may sell a few more desktops with the latest stuff, but at the cost of losing a fair amount of server business.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
But RH's bottom line isn't the same as the corporations that they have been selling to.
I firmly believe that they may sell a few more desktops with the latest stuff, but at the cost of losing a fair amount of server business.


But there is a real cost to change your platform. If you have built management functionality and tooling around operating and managing RHEL across thousands and tens of thousands of servers, then there is a real cost to move away from RHEL. That cost may make it not worth avoiding systemd, especially when so many distros are moving to it and enterprise level Linux options are limited. Will they lose some business? Maybe. Maybe not.

The devil you know is always more comfortable. It depends on the nature of the devil; is your devil the init system or is your devil the distro?

At least RHEL7 does not use systemd by default, so those firms on older versions can upgrade to a newer OS without major changes while this systemd saga plays out.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:
The 'One True Way' should be a suite of tools that we can pick and choose which ones we want/need to use on our system.

That's called "the Unix way" and it explicitly rejects any One True Way as being a dead-end. Software is change, and the Unix way is a distillation of experience over decades with that change.
Quote:
If the day comes where a "One True Way" is required, it should be modular and collaborative and not the creation of one corporate shill who has a higher than is healthy opinion of himself.

Code:

$ find /etc/portage -type f -exec fgrep systemd {} /dev/null \;
/etc/portage/make.conf:session -sqlite svg svga -systemd \
/etc/portage/package.mask:sys-apps/systemd

Sing it, sister ;-)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:

But there is a real cost to change your platform. If you have built management functionality and tooling around operating and managing RHEL across thousands and tens of thousands of servers, then there is a real cost to move away from RHEL. That cost may make it not worth avoiding systemd, especially when so many distros are moving to it and enterprise level Linux options are limited. Will they lose some business? Maybe. Maybe not.

The devil you know is always more comfortable. It depends on the nature of the devil; is your devil the init system or is your devil the distro?

At least RHEL7 does not use systemd by default, so those firms on older versions can upgrade to a newer OS without major changes while this systemd saga plays out.


There is a real cost to change to systemd. Heck, those stupid "predictable, persistent network device names" (that are neither, by the way) haven't hit the server floor yet, and whenever they do will cause a real stir. I'm presuming that the "predictable, persistent network device names" is an upstream thing, and not something Gentoo decided to do on it's own. About as soon as the server floor has it's eth0 and eth1 device names turned into something only loosely predictable, the null "80-net-name-slot.rules" will become standard practice.

The outcome will depend on how fully RedHat pushes systemd into their server distribution, the migration tools they make available, and if some other vendor is able to promise and deliver on a painless upgrade path. If they try to do systemd migration the way Gentoo and Arch have been, the result will be departing customers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:
But there is a real cost to change your platform. If you have built management functionality and tooling around operating and managing RHEL across thousands and tens of thousands of servers, then there is a real cost to move away from RHEL.


Oh, I agree, but with the change from sysv init to systemd
there is also going to be a cost associated to doing things differently.

As to whether it will be more cost effective to stay with RH and go with systemd
or move to another distro or maybe roll their own,
that's a cost benefit analysis that is up to the company to make.

The good news for companies, is that RHEL's life cycle is in years, not weeks and months,
so the companies have time to look at alternatives and test out systemd.

Just some thoughts. I've been involved in deployment before and
companies hate changes like switching to systemd when it's so different.

Anyway, I don't disagree with things you've said, just fleshing it out with things from my background.

Edit to add: depontius, I hadn't read your post when I posted this, I agree with what you say.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as RH, they would have to be brain dead to try and push companies running servers to systemd.

So I expect a dual approach from them, systemd for desktops, replacing XP or Win7
and servers to keep on using sysv init and other things.

The reason being there is nothing in systemd that a server needs, not an oracle server, web server farm, etc.
They don't need *kit, logind, dbus,.graphic anything, most don't even run X, at least the ones I worked for didn't.
They don't need gnome anything, gtk anything, etc.
That stuff is all desktop based, and almost completely useless on straight servers.
And bootup speed is the least of a server concern if they've crashed, they want to
check the database and make sure it isn't corrupted, etc.

Having said all the above, if RH does try and shove systemd into the server arena,
I would expect a new company, lets call it Blue Fez would start up and basically
fork the last RHEL using sysv init and take over RH's server business.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Shum wrote:
Seeing as systemd seems to be taking the linux world by storm and a lot of the other distros are adopting it, I'm wondering whether the Gentoo devs have any plans to make it the default init system and replacement for OpenRC?


If this were a wide movement, it would be visible in #gentoo-dev on IRC or one of the mailing lists (gentoo-dev, gentoo-project); from these sources nearly no suggestion with regards to this has so far been made, as far as I can see. For the mailing lists you can browse the archives on a site like GMANE or Gossammer, for IRC you'll have to trust my word for it. Another possible type of movement would be one that happen between closed doors, in some hidden place; use of the gentoo-core mailing list would be misuse of this, and the private version of the #gentoo-council channel has only recently been resurrected and was used to vote about the new QA team. The only place where some hidden movement could happen is there; but then, you would need to wonder if the individuals of the Gentoo Council would discuss such thing in private. As that would come as a surprise that would heavily upset people, I don't think so.

Switching the default to systemd is much more complex than toggling a switch, which makes it not an option for discussion; the distro and developers have to be ready for it, which is something we are not at yet. There are still less systemd service units, there are still a lot of developers that prefer to use OpenRC over systemd, the documentation and/or support can step up another notch, we need a systemd stage3; the list goes on...

Are there Gentoo devs that have plans? Who knows, they haven't let heard of themselves if they are out there. But I would rather see systemd get forced due to upstreams migrating to it; but we're far from there, OpenRC is still well supported. For those that want to prevent systemd from becoming a 'forced' default, I suggest letting your voice be heard upstream. We can patch it up dowstream to some extent; but Gentoo's man powers are limited, it is an uphill battle.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:

Switching the default to systemd is much more complex than toggling a switch, which makes it not an option for discussion; the distro and developers have to be ready for it, which is something we are not at yet. There are still less systemd service units, there are still a lot of developers that prefer to use OpenRC over systemd, the documentation and/or support can step up another notch, we need a systemd stage3; the list goes on...


But they just did exactly that - last December. One Saturday I was doing my weekly software updates, and suddenly my system "wanted" to migrate to systemd. No warning, no news item, nada. I posted a Colbert-like "wag of my finger" a couple of times over this, as a procedural issue, not a systemd rant. I was told that gnome-3.8 was "being stabilized" and the news item would come out after that process was complete. The sequence of events still seems backwards to me, and still smacks of "gotcha development and migration." There are still people today over a month later having troubles getting their systems fully functional after migratin.

TomWij wrote:

Are there Gentoo devs that have plans? Who knows, they haven't let heard of themselves if they are out there. But I would rather see systemd get forced due to upstreams migrating to it; but we're far from there, OpenRC is still well supported. For those that want to prevent systemd from becoming a 'forced' default, I suggest letting your voice be heard upstream. We can patch it up dowstream to some extent; but Gentoo's man powers are limited, it is an uphill battle.


Can you suggest the correct places to shout? I try to keep a level attitude, keep it technical, and try to not get into the attacks. I'd hope I can be an effective lobbiest on this.

Related question... Earlier in this thread there is mention of Canonical's alternative cgroup daemon. I'd like to see this in Gentoo, and perhaps I need to get the code and write (with assistance) an ebuild for it. I have no idea how to push it into the Gentoo mainstream, if I'm able to do so, nor do I know if it would get the "Upstart treatment". (Bug Closed - because now we have systemd, and don't need Upstart.) I"m also really curious to see if an alternative userspace lib for kdbus comes out of Canonical, or somewhere else.

If it were a few years down the road and I were already retired, I think I'd see if I could "do systemd correctly." I like the concept, but absolutely dislike the implementation.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
The reason being there is nothing in systemd that a server needs, not an oracle server, web server farm, etc.
They don't need *kit, logind, dbus,.graphic anything, most don't even run X, at least the ones I worked for didn't.
They don't need gnome anything, gtk anything, etc.
That stuff is all desktop based, and almost completely useless on straight servers.

I just remembered one tiny little thing mentioned back in that first flurry of announcements from the Null Pointer Guy (if he's going to push so much into Linux, why doesn't he celebrate a concept that is safe in programming?): one of the things he threw out as a justification for systemd was its support for multiseat. Multiseat? Why is that super-important? (The first question I had was "what's that for"? Once I heard it was to allow multiple users plug separate monitors and keyboards into a single computer and thus allow multiple users use the computer at the same time, I thought of how this violates Pournelle's Law: "one user, one CPU.")

We were already talking about tail wagging the dog, but now the wagging is much bigger: not only are we supposed to rush out and adopt systemd, but we are to do so largely for the sake of supporting a very strange usage case of a desktop configuration, and a configuration which may not be so advisable in the first place.

This one bit of creeping featuritis makes every Linux administorator: whether of servers or of sane one-user-at-a-time desktops, people running Linux systems have to deal with this strange concept of seat.

If the init process were to handle only on-demand process startup, that might be all right. The rest of the systemd camel working its way into the tent is quite too much.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:

If the init process were to handle only on-demand process startup, that might be all right. The rest of the systemd camel working its way into the tent is quite too much.


Now you get to where I say I like the original idea of systemd - demand-based process startup. I've run xinetd in the past on my servers, though not at the moment, but it seems to be oriented toward starting services, then letting them stop after the immediate need is done. My interpretation of the on-demand startup was that things that "wanted" to persist could, and things that wanted to service a need then exit could do that. It seemed like a useful and sensible unification. (I'm not so sure of that any more, because others have suggested aspects of daemon handling that I wasn't so familiar with.) But systemd has turned into a Borg, and that I clearly don't like.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I've run xinetd in the past on my servers, though not at the moment, but it seems to be oriented toward starting services, then letting them stop after the immediate need is done. My interpretation of the on-demand startup was that things that "wanted" to persist could, and things that wanted to service a need then exit could do that. It seemed like a useful and sensible unification.
...
But systemd has turned into a Borg, and that I clearly don't like.

But if you have this slim systemd feature of letting some services persist others not:
How should this kind of service management figure out:
what services it should newly start and
what services it should respect had been started by openrc

On the purpose to unify it there had to be some standardized labeling of services:
The ones your slim-systemd should recognize they where started before by openrc?

Why not extend openrc with this kind of capability in the first place?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My impression 2 years ago was that the neat thing systemd offerred was "port activation". OpenRC carries a bunch of metadata around to sort out dependencies and make sure the right thing runs first. It's also only as good as its metadata, and I'm under the impression that that metadata is really somewhat static, based on rc-update, and that's why asynchronous service starting is somewhat problematic. My feeling was that "port activation" offerred a way to make dependency handling truly dynamic, as well as working on real requirements and not something coded, perhaps incorrectly.

I'm not sure what would have to be added to OpenRC to move it from semi-static to truly dynamic dependencies.

My impression of how systemd works may also be partly based on my own imagination, and not reality. I may have overstated its case. In its subsequent Borg-ness I clearly understated its reach.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
TomWij wrote:

Switching the default to systemd is much more complex than toggling a switch, which makes it not an option for discussion; the distro and developers have to be ready for it, which is something we are not at yet. There are still less systemd service units, there are still a lot of developers that prefer to use OpenRC over systemd, the documentation and/or support can step up another notch, we need a systemd stage3; the list goes on...


But they just did exactly that - last December. One Saturday I was doing my weekly software updates, and suddenly my system "wanted" to migrate to systemd. No warning, no news item, nada. I posted a Colbert-like "wag of my finger" a couple of times over this, as a procedural issue, not a systemd rant. I was told that gnome-3.8 was "being stabilized" and the news item would come out after that process was complete. The sequence of events still seems backwards to me, and still smacks of "gotcha development and migration." There are still people today over a month later having troubles getting their systems fully functional after migratin.
So "they" didn't do "it" at all. Gentoo did not migrate anywhere, you just had a software package installed whose update pulled in systemd.
That is very very far from migrating a whole distribution. (This doesn't mean the stabalization process of gnome-3.8 was ok the way it went.)

You don't even need to boot your computer using systemd. It just has to be installed so gdm can talk to logind.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
But they just did exactly that - last December. One Saturday I was doing my weekly software updates, and suddenly my system "wanted" to migrate to systemd.


Assuming this is not GNOME's mandatory dependency back then, this is due to how the virtual concept works. We have several virtuals in /usr/portage/virtual that allow us to specify dependencies of packages to say something like "I need any udev implementation"; thus if we look at /usr/portage/virtual/udev/udev-208.ebuild we will see that they are listed in a certain order.

Normally you will get the first one (sys-fs/udev) by default; but, if due to USE flag changes by the user between the virtual and udev itself the first dependency cannot be satisfied, it will cause another package that can satisfy it to be pulled in. This might be what you saw, it happens sometimes that the virtual/udev and sys-fs/udev USE flags differ by accident; it's important to keep those USE flags the same.

As you can see in that same file, masking sys-fs/udev and sys-apps/systemd will cause sys-fs/eudev to get pulled in. If you know which one you want, you could opt to mask the other two.

Another file where these are listed, is the one that specifies the service managers; this is virtual/service-manager which you can look into at /var/cvsroot/gentoo-x86/virtual/service-manager/service-manager-0.ebuild where you will see the order of the default service managers. To this very day sys-apps/openrc is listed first on non-prefix systems; as there are no other USE flags that are determining here, the only way to have systemd satisfy this virtual would be to either merge systemd or to mask OpenRC. It doesn't thus pull in systemd by default or by accident, but rather as an intended choice.

depontius wrote:
No warning, no news item, nada.


This virtual packages are by design.

depontius wrote:
I posted a Colbert-like "wag of my finger" a couple of times over this, as a procedural issue, not a systemd rant.


The packages can be masked as to not make this an issue.

depontius wrote:
I was told that gnome-3.8 was "being stabilized" and the news item would come out after that process was complete.


Sorry, but do you run GNOME or not? If you have GNOME packages, then my above virtual packages explanation might not be the cause; but it demonstrates that there has been no switch in default, as I was trying to answer the "migrate to systemd" bit.

depontius wrote:
The sequence of events still seems backwards to me, and still smacks of "gotcha development and migration." There are still people today over a month later having troubles getting their systems fully functional after migratin.


The GNOME team within Gentoo has limited manpower; so, yes, they are catching up rather than running ahead.

depontius wrote:
Can you suggest the correct places to shout? I try to keep a level attitude, keep it technical, and try to not get into the attacks. I'd hope I can be an effective lobbiest on this.


I would think GNOME upstream is a lost battle as they are quite convinced to it; so, I'd rather think it is interesting to participate where upstreams are considering to switch to systemd.

depontius wrote:
Related question... Earlier in this thread there is mention of Canonical's alternative cgroup daemon. I'd like to see this in Gentoo, and perhaps I need to get the code and write (with assistance) an ebuild for it. I have no idea how to push it into the Gentoo mainstream,


File a bug at https://bugs.gentoo.org under Gentoo Linux - New Ebuilds and attach the ebuild there (if you have one, otherwise a request without attaching is fine too).

For starting on an ebuild there is https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Basic_guide_to_write_Gentoo_Ebuilds which I started a while ago, it's not finished but should be enough to understand the very first things in detail; from there on you can inspect how existing ebuilds work and/or peek through the https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ for further details on how specific things work in detail (I suggest learning about the ebuild phases that exist first). For a quick lookup of syntax and/or meaning of some concept, `man 5 ebuild` can be handy.

Just for reference; if someone needs them, you can find more contributing ideas on https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Contributing_to_Gentoo

depontius wrote:
if I'm able to do so, nor do I know if it would get the "Upstart treatment". (Bug Closed - because now we have systemd, and don't need Upstart.)


That bug was closed by the reporter in https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150190#c29; I've cloned that bug into https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=498376 which makes this open again.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
You don't even need to boot your computer using systemd. It just has to be installed so gdm can talk to logind


Talk about a wrongness.

And even when ubuntu pulled out logind and made it standalone, the systemd folks were busy making sure that wouldn't happen again.

If the systemd folks were truly interested in creating good software, then they would have done it differently.
Produce a base library, then make the executables modular, ie build logind only, or the logger only, etc.
But they aren't interested in creating good software, they want everyone to use the kitchen sink.

Their goal is to have everyone use their and only their software. They want to be the MS borg of the linux world.

I don't fault them for that dream, I fault them and RH for their implementation of trying to force everyone that way
by leveraging the gnome world first. KDE has, AFAIK, looked at using systemd, but I think that there will be a day
that systemd will require gnome and gtk libs to be installed just to have systemd. And many will think why not just
use gnome, since I have half of the gnome world anyway.

I don't trust LP and company as far as I can throw an elephant.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me post this again :

http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2013-10.html#e2013-10-29T13_39_32.txt

:wink:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:

You don't even need to boot your computer using systemd. It just has to be installed so gdm can talk to logind.


But as previously said, I'm not running systemd, this all came in because I run some Gnome software. I believe I also run some KDE software too, by the way.

But since I'm not running systemd, I won't be running systemd-logind or any other sort of logind, and therefore gdm won't be able to talk to it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:

Sorry, but do you run GNOME or not? If you have GNOME packages, then my above virtual packages explanation might not be the cause; but it demonstrates that there has been no switch in default, as I was trying to answer the "migrate to systemd" bit.


Once upon a time I thought running the GNOME applications I liked, as well as the KDE applications I liked, as well as any other non-GNOME, non-KDE applications I liked was a perfectly acceptable practice.

I'll just ask it this way, if gnome-3.8 wasn't stabilized yet, why were it's pieces unmasked so that any GNOME applications started pulling in a giant mess? I have gone back and masked gnome-3.8, and am running happily since. I also believe this could have been handled more gracefully. I don't think my usage case is that odd.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Once upon a time I thought running the GNOME applications I liked, as well as the KDE applications I liked, as well as any other non-GNOME, non-KDE applications I liked was a perfectly acceptable practice.

This was so until gnome was taken over by redhat economists. Their idea is now that you you have to run the gnome infrastructure on which you can run everything else; their aim is obviously that redhat gets the exclusive control over the underlying infrastructure.
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I have gone back and masked gnome-3.8, and am running happily since.

This can be at most a temporary solution unless you switch away from gnome completley. Otherwise you will run a system which does not get any security updates.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Quote:
I have gone back and masked gnome-3.8, and am running happily since.

This can be at most a temporary solution unless you switch away from gnome completley. Otherwise you will run a system which does not get any security updates.


Indeed.

I've long stripped my system of any gnome software except for libglade and librsvg (an old version that I keep in my local portage)
I have blocked any gtk3 libs and any apps that depend on it (only about 3-4 apps at the moment)

I live with the non-updatability of those few apps.
If I had to I would seek out qt apps or some other widget package to replace them with.

I refuse to be held hostage to the RH we own you paradigm.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

I have blocked any gtk3 libs and any apps that depend on it (only about 3-4 apps at the moment)

Funny... I remember many years back that there were difficulties with QT acceptance because it was owned by TrollTech, and they'd dual-licensed it. For a while there was even a fork of the "last free" QT.

What's really odd here is that (I'm not really sure that it's RedHat, or that they're just failing to rein in L.P.) someone has managed to follow the letter of the GPL while most definitely acting counter to its spirit. I may get some gumption up and try writing Richard Stallman again. (I did it once, many years ago, and even got a reasonable response. I was suggesting a "judo argument" action at the time, and he didn't seem to get the point - as well as being serious to a fault, he's also very direct.)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the whole qt kerfluffle has died down.
I don't remember the specifics of the whole thing, but the free software world hasn't been in arms over it for quite a while.

I think that QT learned their lesson. It remains to be seen whether RH will learn a similar lesson.

Afa RH and LP, they fund him, they've swapped over their distro to pretty much exclusively use systemd.
So, yeah, I'm pretty sure that RH is in it up to their eyeballs.
I can't say that they told him to do the things he has to systemd,
but they're aware of what he has done, as well as the populations reaction to it.
And they seem fine with the direction of it.

Again, RH is a corporation, their goal is to make money.
They would love to be the MS of the linux world,
in the sense of their being the masters of most software used.

Edit to add: I just did a quick google search and it seems the qt license problems were back with qt-2 which was some time ago.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Once upon a time I thought running the GNOME applications I liked, as well as the KDE applications I liked, as well as any other non-GNOME, non-KDE applications I liked was a perfectly acceptable practice.


Something similar happens here, as a GNOME user I want to use some KDE application(s) that I like; but, it comes at the pain of pulling in the big kde-base/kdelibs. Though, I hear KDE planned to split that up, would be nice but until then it's a really huge package that I otherwise don't need.

depontius wrote:
I'll just ask it this way, if gnome-3.8 wasn't stabilized yet, why were it's pieces unmasked so that any GNOME applications started pulling in a giant mess?


The mask and the stabilization are separate matters. The mask is there to safely move overlay packages to the Portage tree and then in testing (~arch); for instance, you'll see there is a mask for GNOME 3.10 now as they are bringing that to the Portage tree. After the removal of that mask, the packages will be in testing (~arch); after they have been there for a while and tested fine, they will get stabilized. That last mask can be seen with `awk -vRS= '/Gnome 3.10/' /usr/portage/profiles/package.mask`.

depontius wrote:
I have gone back and masked gnome-3.8, and am running happily since. I also believe this could have been handled more gracefully. I don't think my usage case is that odd.


It definitely is a normal use case; however, since manpower is limited multiple versions and/or branches can't be simultaneously maintained. The plan is therefore that GNOME 2.x and GNOME 3.6 will be removed; other than user attempts to keep it in an overlay (which is more than just copying it there), there's not much else that can be done wrt GNOME. After a short discussion on the gentoo-project the way forward would be to bring the MATE desktop to the Portage tree for former GNOME 2.x users for which upgrading is not an option; as for GNOME 3.6, maybe Unity fits in here?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
After a short discussion on the gentoo-project the way forward would be to bring the MATE desktop to the Portage tree for former GNOME 2.x users for which upgrading is not an option; as for GNOME 3.6, maybe Unity fits in here?


I can be happy with this. I just don't want to be forced to gnome-3.8 and systemd. Basically I don't want to be forced, period. I know that attitude requires tempering, because of course I haven't balked at gcc moving from 3.3.6 (earliest version I currently have at the tip of my fingers) to 3.7.whatever currently installed. Nor did I balk at the move from baselayout-1 to baselayout-2.

With systemd it's the perception that bothers me, and the fact that it's getting its fingers all over my system, and that it keeps wiggling its fingers into more and more stuff. It's also the feeling that there's a steamroller bearing down on you, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Let me ask a more technical systemd question...
Last month I installed a new server. I didn't do a very good job of following the manual. I did it mostly by memory and grabbed the manual as I got stuck. I also booted from SysRescueCD somewhere between a half dozen and dozen times to fix one thing or another, chrooting in many of those times, tailing and grepping my logs, dmesg, etc.

It seems to me that systemd either requires a very specialized rescue CD to do that, or may render some of the things that I did difficult-to-impossible. Can someone comment on rescuing a systemd system? And DON'T tell me that systemd systems "just work" and don't need rescuing. I won't believe that one.
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