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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
iptables

It seems that I am missing some information: Why do you think that iptables (or its successor nftables?) is tied to the systemd project?


I don't know that it will be, but look at what they have already incorporated and ask yourself what's next.
It looks like kdbus will be going into the kernel, and that will tie to dbus.
So I expect the next logical piece to add to systemd will be dbus.
It feels like they are trying to build a windows type machine, which means incorporating pretty much everything thought of as system level.
Just my guess.

Edit to add: Redhat wants gnome to be the microsoft windows of the linux world.
They're using systemd to help achieve that goal.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Edit to add: Redhat wants gnome to be the microsoft windows of the linux world.
They're using systemd to help achieve that goal.
Also this claim makes sense, do you have proof, or at least some evidence for that claim?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their actions in the past points directly to that goal. They would be stupid if they pronounce this public, but they cant prevent their actions to speak for them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Edit to add: Redhat wants gnome to be the microsoft windows of the linux world.
They're using systemd to help achieve that goal.
Also this claim makes sense, do you have proof, or at least some evidence for that claim?


If one reads enough of what the gnome devs, and other redhat employees, have said in the past, it's a pretty easy conclusion to make.
I've seen links on various threads on this forum that point this out.

The latest I've seen is where redhat/gnome is pissing on
the various developers that, in the past, have made it worth using.
They have stated that they don't want non-gnome developers to
really create apps, except the way they tell them to,
as it might dilute their brand, their words.
They are changing gtk3 so that there are no choices other than what they want devs to have.

Very much like microsoft, you play in their sandbox, you use their bucket and shovel.
Systemd is very much being tied to gnome.
Right now others can use it, but given what they have done to gnome libs, including gtk
I wouldn't bet on it remaining that way, for very long. I'm sure it will appear to be for eveyone
at least until they have enough market share to do what microsoft did, shut out the other competitors.

Part of what I see coming is supposition, but much is based on little things they have said, as well as
their actions in the recent past.

Redhat was one of the original distros, along with a few others.
I'm pretty sure they hate that ubuntu was getting more press
than they were for the last several years. No one is stating this
openly, but the pattern is there if one looks.

Anyway, enough of my rambling.


Edit to add: One more thing I just thought of.
Ubuntu had managed to pull logind out of systemd a few revs back, to make it standalone, ie outside systemd.
It was no sooner done than Pottering started ranting that logind and other pieces weren't meant to be used
that way, ie, his saying systemd was modular was all just marketing buzzwords, ie BS. And it wasn't long before
the internals were changed to make it harder to pull out pieces like logind. They want to be the monolithic
piece of software that windows has become.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More than that I have found this mailing thread: "systemd: please stop trying to take over the world :)" which has some rather enlightening comments from the Poettering-man himself. Like:
Lennart Poettering wrote:
With systemd we have a very strict policy: we want to gently push the
distros to standardize on the same components
for the base system. That
means that if you use ply and systemd together you get the best features
but you can still use them independently too. It's loosely coupled, but
we do want to get people to use this combination and no other by
offering them the best support for this combination.
( https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152672.html )
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
mv wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
iptables

It seems that I am missing some information: Why do you think that iptables (or its successor nftables?) is tied to the systemd project?


I don't know that it will be, but look at what they have already incorporated and ask yourself what's next.
It looks like kdbus will be going into the kernel, and that will tie to dbus.
So I expect the next logical piece to add to systemd will be dbus.
It feels like they are trying to build a windows type machine, which means incorporating pretty much everything thought of as system level.
Just my guess.


Actually, in a way it's our fault. Take a look at cgroups. They're being reorganized in the kernel because the original version was too messy and chaotic - I won't disagree with that. But one side-effect is that with the new cgroup API there can be only one master controller daemon. In the "dominant model" that becomes systemd. But someone also wrote another cgroup master controller daemon, which showed up on LWN.net: https://lwn.net/Articles/575672/

The situation is the same with kdbus. The first, and for now default, userspace side is part of systemd. But that is in no way a limitation. The interface is there, and because it's in the kernel I have a good degree of confidence that it's a good and reasonably well-documented interface. Someone else can write a user-space library for interfacing with kdbus. There's no exclusion, here. That's why I say it's our fault - we haven't done it, yet.

A little time with Google, and I see that "Serge E. Hallyn" who wrote the alternate cgroup daemon works for Canonical, which makes sense. I presume they want Upstart to work with the new cgroup implementation. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see either Canonical or Google come out with their own kdbus userspace lib, either. (I wonder how Google is going to handle the cgroup change, whether they're going to use Canonical's daemon, write their own, or "go back-compatible" with the old cgroup interface, for now.)

The same will be true of nftables.
Anon-E-moose wrote:

Edit to add: Redhat wants gnome to be the microsoft windows of the linux world.
They're using systemd to help achieve that goal.


I wholly agree with your sentiment, except I don't think the primary drive is RedHat. I believe it's really driven by freedesktop.org and the changing demographics of Linux users and developers. Personally I believe that quite a number of Windows users and developers have come to Linux and brought their attitudes with them. Microsoft has cultured them in the Borg-like "There can be only ONE" (How's that for mixing STNG and Highlander metaphors?) mentality, and they're pushing it into Linux. There has been no shortage of "Fragmentation is holding Linux back" stuff written on the net for quite a few years now. I believe that's where this all comes from, and the people with this attitude have settled into freedesktop.org as well as all over Linux-land. I don't have the reference handy, but somewhere on one of the mailing lists, L.P. himeself said that his goal is to push systemd across all distributions.

As for RedHat, I wonder what the company attitude toward this whole Borg-ism is. As I said, I don't believe it originated with them, but they must know that some of its prime movers are in their employ. Then again, I get the impression that the RedHat originators are long gone, and it's a corporation now, pretty much like any other corporation. That's sad.

EDIT - While I was composing this, Yamakuzure posted the link to the reference I didn't have handy, in the post just before this one.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I wholly agree with your sentiment, except I don't think the primary drive is RedHat. I believe it's really driven by freedesktop.org and the changing demographics of Linux users and developers.


I can't disagree with all that you said in your reply, I'll just say this about this quote,
I'm not really sure where redhat ends and freedesktop org begins.
Seeing as how there are several that "develop" in both camps.
I've never checked and I'm not sure if it can be found out who exactly funds freedesktop org.

I don't think that redhat has a global domination plan at the moment, but then again MS didn't either, at first.

But I doubt that if the competitors were shut out down the road,
because of changes in systemd and other underpinnings,
that they would cry too long over it. :wink:

I've seen a few articles lately proclaiming that the age of the linux desktop is here because of gnome 3.
Not that we haven't seen that proclamation about the desktop before.

From a developer viewpoint a monoculture is a good thing.
From an evolutionary viewpoint, it's always a dead end.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And in a timely fashion, I found this from linuxtoday.com : http://www.datamation.com/open-source/gnome-key-to-linux-desktop-unification-1.html

In spite of the discussion, it appears that GNOME3 clearly seems to believe that pushing their desktop down everyone's throats is the path to Linux World Domination. The whole systemd thing is just part of a bigger picture - currently the most obnoxious part, perhaps. Problem is, I believe that what systemd is trying to do could actually be done well, and if it were done in that way I'd migrate in a minute.

This did sort-of work for Windows. If they do manage to tie Linux to GNOME3 and somehow preclude alternatives, I wonder how soon the defections will begin, and where we will go. (Note I put myself in that category. I already plan to leave Gentoo if/when my ability to choose is removed.)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

L.P. just told in Australia kdbus is just another temporary filesystem .... I understood his words that way. Everybody can build it's own dbus using that new kdbus kernel feature. It should be called something like "kbusfs" I think! L.P. expects it will be accepted by kernel.org this year.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
mv wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
iptables

It seems that I am missing some information: Why do you think that iptables (or its successor nftables?) is tied to the systemd project?

I don't know that it will be

There is no reason to assume so: systemd has no support for network at all - it completely relies on other tools for this. In ubuntu, this tool is networkmanager, but I am not even sure whether in redhat networkmanager is the only possible choice for this; after all, networkmanager is not suitable at all for servers.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

mv wrote:

There is no reason to assume so: systemd has no support for network at all - it completely relies on other tools for this. In ubuntu, this tool is networkmanager, but I am not even sure whether in redhat networkmanager is the only possible choice for this; after all, networkmanager is not suitable at all for servers.


This is one of those interesting conundrums about systemd and (my pet conspiracy theory) freedesktop.org - they are completely and thoroughly desktop-centric, and ignore the server market entirely. But if you consider that the increased success Linux has today has been driven by corporate adoption for servers, it leaves you wondering what's up.

I assume RedHat makes its money from servers, and probably quite a bit less from workstations. It seems to me that for the most part, systemd adoption has been exclamation! driven, which can be appropriate for the desktop, but not for servers. This all seems inconsistent for RedHat. Any dissention to systemd has been met with derision and mockery, both technical and personal - except one. Google has stated that it is simply too disruptive and too much for them to migrate to systemd in any sort of rapid fashion, and I suspect that systemd is completely under the radar so far for other big server installations.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

mv wrote:
There is no reason to assume so: systemd has no support for network at all


And originally it used udev as it had no support for it.
It was simply a supposition that they would want to add it as they have done to other key pieces.
The more they add the more they can control the desktop from one place.

What I said originally was that I expected them to add other system level supporting software
and just mentioned dbus and iptables as candidates.
I wasn't really wanting to argue whether they will add it.
Just that I don't expect them to stop where they are right now.

Anyway enough of my rambling.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
This is one of those interesting conundrums about systemd and (my pet conspiracy theory) freedesktop.org - they are completely and thoroughly desktop-centric, and ignore the server market entirely. But if you consider that the increased success Linux has today has been driven by corporate adoption for servers, it leaves you wondering what's up.


This is another reason that things like systemd don't make a whole of sense for people like me.
My server/single user desktop stays up days/weeks/months at a time
and even if it were one or two second faster on bootup that's irrelevant to me.
I like the services to be separate, including logging.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

What I said originally was that I expected them to add other system level supporting software
and just mentioned dbus and iptables as candidates.
I wasn't really wanting to argue whether they will add it.
Just that I don't expect them to stop where they are right now.


Another one of those now-un-findable L.P. quotes was that they wanted systemd to completely surrount the kernel, and become the de-facto Linux interface. I hope there was just a little hyperbole there - that sound is currently "OK" because it's already enveloped by pulseaudio, and I'm sure systemd won't get away with sucking in glibc or uclibc. But another part of the mentioned path (by the quote referenced earlier) was simply making as many other parts of Linux as possible dependent on systemd for their best operation. I don't know how you make glibc dependent on systemd, or how portage would resolve that one...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The good news is that systemd proponents won't be able to completely control the kernel.
Nor the major libraries, compilers, etc.

I do remember a time though, when one could have msdos on ones system and put another desktop than windows.
MS made sure that didn't happen for very long.

Linus does keep silliness from being added to the kernel, such as binary logging,
as the latest example, simply because it might benefit the few vs the many.

But if Linus should suddenly die, I would expect that many things would be done differently.
So I wish him a long and healthy life. :)

Having said that, devtmpfs was added to the kernel because of whining from systemd people.
And it appears that kdbus is being added for the same reason.

And then lets look at udev, originally a non systemd piece of software,
but systemd took it under it's wing and LP has said that he looks forward
to the day when it won't exist
. The only way that could happen is if it becomes
an internal module of systemd, then people wouldn't have udev without systemd itself.
They are almost there, but not quite, at least just yet.


Edit to add: for all the points that I've brought out, in various posts, it doesn't mean that
we have to be stuck with systemd, the old software is around and available to be
forked at any point in time, including things like udev. So there is that to consider.
It would just require work and developers to do the work.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But neither devtmpfs nor kdbus are entirely valueless. I'm under the impression that devtmpfs actually cleans up early userspace handling of devices, and makes simplifies the handoff to real userspace. As for kdbus I can see the value of having some ipc in the kernel to cut transitions and conceivably improve security. (I would also think that using kdbus for the session dbus would be definitely counter-productive, adding transitions where they are not necessary.)

As I said before, in some ways the onus is now on people like us to take advantage of the new kernel features outside of systemd.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
But neither devtmpfs nor kdbus are entirely valueless.


I didn't mean to imply in either case that they were valueless.
Just that they are put in place for a few (vocal) people, mainly systemd devs.

For devtmpfs, udev worked just fine on my system before I added devtmpfs to the kernel.
Was it necessary? No
Can others use it? Yes
End result - the people can win in both of these cases.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I consider systemd as an cancer that happend to linux. Linux used to be all about choice, use whatever WM/DE you want, whatever sound system (back in days with oss, alsa or more userspace esd, jack, now pulseaudio). Now we have one true way, one standard, its like 'do it my way or die'.

Likely, linux kernel still not depends on it. I have fully working desktop system without udev, with mdev as hotplug agent and gets the job done. The over all mdev-solution is *so* simple that its pretty much impossible to be broken, and if something goes wrong debuging it is transparent, simple and easy to hack up whatever I need.

I choosen gentoo above other distros (environments?) because I could pretty easly swap some elements without an much issue, drop dbus where I didn't wanted it to be. if gentoo ever switch to systemd and nuke openrc (which is not really that tied to gentoo to be honest) I will just go to runit or another init system like s8, getting all scripts, configs and runit as solution shoudn't take me more than two evenings so it has pretty low 'coist of deployment'.

Also, when system is super simple, it also resonable easy to secure, as error surface is small. Udev alone was nightmare for me to write Grsecurity RBAC rules to, now when I check on systemd I am just stooned by the total level of things init1 process does, madness.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
After all Red-Hat use Gentoo as an engineering division.


lolwut??

this left me scratching my head...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlashBeast wrote:
I consider systemd as an cancer that happend to linux. .


and for Gentoo too... Gentoo isn't about choice anymore. Why? ebuilds pollute every system with a systemd /usr/lib/systemd/ tree even when you don't want it.
Probably to ease the migration...to systemd

Moreover, systemd is more and more hard coded in ebuilds.

I feel like, it's just a matter of time and openrc will be replaced as well. Also, it's harder now for a average user to get rid of gnome and pulseaudio because of all the dependencies that refer to them.
I have a better, faster and stable system since I left gnome for openbox/compton/lightdm/alsa/jackaudio/consolekit. Also compton, consolekit and jackaudio use dbus ;)

I think, people and devs who respectively use, develop around openbox/compton are really friendly and merit more attention and support from the community.
Its look like systemd and Gnome are more a 9 digits corporation project than a GNU/Linux one.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jimmy Jazz wrote:

and for Gentoo too... Gentoo isn't about choice anymore. Why? ebuilds pollute every system with a systemd /usr/lib/systemd/ tree even when you don't want it.
Probably to ease the migration...to systemd


I recommend you vaccinate your system.
make.conf wrote:
INSTALL_MASK="${INSTALL_MASK}
/usr/lib/systemd"

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd? Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
iptables

It seems that I am missing some information: Why do you think that iptables (or its successor nftables?) is tied to the systemd project?


This is not how LP play, here's how he will do such a thing

- Create systemd-ip that do like iptables but better (from LP pov!), because it's just a crappy implementation, that instead of adding strengh to iptables, add low value : make systemd-ip config xml, make its log only binaries...
- Make systemd-ip a standalone program (so you can call it modular)
- Make systemd-ip hard depend on systemd (because once you said it is modular, make sure it is not, you don't want anyone using systemd-ip without systemd!)
- Make sure systemd can only run sytemd-ip tool : you don't want sytemd user running systemd+iptables, add a note to freedesktop.org in case you need to enforce that (freedesktop.org/systemd/Whyiptablessucks
- Don't forget to add another note on freedesktop.org that backup iptables is crappy and it's not systemd fault if you cannot use it with systemd : and refer to previous note on freedesktop.org to backup your claim ; a freedesktop.org/systemd/iptablesisbuggy pointing to freedesktop.org/systemd/Whyiptablessucks is the key ! Now your claim is true, everyone could only find those two pages in google result, because they point to each other and specially because there's no other pages saying iptables sucks as it just doesn't suck...
- After some times, now that everyone see design is bad : tell everyone systemd-ip was a transition and not a final product : people should use systemd-ip-dbus-new-fresh-top-tool that is the tool to use.
- Because systemd-ip-dbus-new-fresh-top-tool is just another crappy tool, nobody see what's new : so make sure configuration, API... are change to be incomptabile with systemd-ip so everyone will think : yeah, it's totally new.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I commented somewhere a few weeks ago that a nice thing about kdbus was that we did not have to worry about systemd's assimilating dbus. Later I read that things weren't completely rosy about kdbus: it wants to use cgroups.

After reading what Al Viro had to say in LWN about cgroups, I decided that it was a kernel feature I didn't want any more. I've been using Linux Containers for one machine, but it's not worth it enough to keep using cgroups.

So I want to know if any of you know whether kdbus might still be coaxed into working without those precious namespaces or control groups.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, folks, I have the heated arguments about systemd or not to systemd of the previous months still in my mind. Re-reading this thread makes me proud of this community again. Aside the flames and back to real talk. Well done, laddies! 8)
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systemd - The biggest fallacies
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tw04l124
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I have seen on systemd it is / was more a mess than anything. I installed another distro with systemd and at that point there was nearly no documentations available. How can they release something like that without documentation. It is more trash and work to adopt.

OPENRC works and thats the point. No reason to switch to something different when OPENRC works. New things require time to adopt and to read the docs about how to setup and the pitfalls.

Redhat should go their paths without myself in this regard.

Software should be useable.

systemd has more impact on everything as e.g. grub2 which I was an early adopter because my backup distro on my hardware used it quite early. grub2 is just a bootloader so when the box is booted it is about forget it, but systemd has much more impact on everything, which makes it a devil fruit to adopt or to use. I expect random feature / bugs during my daily use and that's why I will never switch until the guys here decided to make a switch themself.
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