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depontius
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

Interesting in that with the rewrite of cgroups in the kernel, call it cgroups ver 2 there is less need
for something like systemd to manage them. They will have a well defined interface. So I expect
to see a few packages that will do that very thing.


There is already an alternative userspace cgroups controller, I forget who posted it - perhaps the EVIL CANONICAL! Makes me wonder how soon the EVIL CANONICAL will come up with an alternative userspace interface lib to kdbus.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really like the concepts behind upstart - I'm much fonder of what I thought were the concepts behind systemd, a little over 2 years ago. At that time I was clearly in the systemd camp, on a concept footing. The systemd implementation and packaging has blown that position away.

If I had the time it would be really fun to architect and write an init system. It might even be more fun to grab a systemd snapshot and do it right.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using systemd and getting rid of all the extraneous garbage, ie, logging, and whatever else isn't truly part of init
wouldn't be that hard. Note: I haven't looked at systemd code to see if it's gpl'd or not.

In either case, the way gentoo has been doing things, with sysvinit/openrc has been working well
and offers ~90% of what systemd claims. The only things that really would be needed, IMO
is to add checking for daemons dying and restarting them, and if memory serves, that was
being done by separate programs for a very long time. So it shouldn't be that hard.

If I were so inclined to do that, I would also split out logind and cgroup handling and offer that
as a separate program. Not part of the init package.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Note: I haven't looked at systemd code to see if it's gpl'd or not.

From /usr/portage/sys-apps/systemd/systemd-208-r2.ebuild
Code:
LICENSE="GPL-2 LGPL-2.1 MIT public-domain"


Hmm. Not only do they want to do everything, but they want to have every kind of license :)

The Null Pointer Guy wrote this at http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-update-3.html
Quote:
We changed the license from GPL2+ to LGPL2.1+.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

miket wrote:
The Null Pointer Guy wrote this at http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-update-3.html
Quote:
We changed the license from GPL2+ to LGPL2.1+.


Reading that list of features pretty much makes me want to barf.

Is there really any doubt in anyones mind that they want to be the linux that everyone sees when they turn on their machine.
The only thing needed is a stupid bootup logo ala windows. :roll:

As I've said I wish them well, but I won't use their crapware (sorry if the term is offensive to some, but it's how I feel about it)

Edit to add: The good thing is with a lot of work, one would probably be able to split out the parts.
The first step would be modularization, as I've spoken of before, core services/libs then the other
parts that talk to that. The only thing making me hesitate to do that is that they would be able to take
any good ideas that I or others have and combine them into their kitchen sink.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That list is truly ridiculous. #5 anyone?
Quote:
5. We split off the Vala/Gtk tools into its own project systemd-ui.

So add GUI to the list of stuff that should be handled by an init system. :roll:
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd-firefox, systemd-libreoffice, systemd-evolution
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
systemd-firefox, systemd-libreoffice, systemd-evolution

LMAO.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's another systemd rant thread currently active, and following one of the references to a Phoronix discussion I found a reference to this:
Broken by design: systemd http://ewontfix.com/14/

Back on the Phoronix discussion thread someone utterly devastated and negated every aspect of the argument by stating that you don't need to reboot when updating systemd. (Minor sarcasm there, pardon me.) Anyway, pointing out that article is preaching to the choir here, but I will anyway - it makes good reading.

I'm divided several ways on action to take, other than occasional rants and discussion here. It would be really fun to fork systemd, in an attempt to do it right - it's a bit of a "judo argument", and equally hard to fight. Sometimes embracing can be the best way. I'll bet it would also drive the fanbois apoplectic.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading ewontfix article, but I had to laugh at this "My view is that this idea is wrong: systemd is broken by design"

It should read "My view is that this idea is wrong: systemd is broken by lack of design"


thanks for the link

Edit to add:
Quote:
Its popularity is purely the result of an aggressive, dictatorial marketing strategy including elements such as:

Engulfing other "essential" system components like udev and making them difficult or impossible to use without systemd (but see eudev).

Setting up for API lock-in (having the DBus interfaces provided by systemd become a necessary API that user-level programs depend on).

Dictating policy rather than being scoped such that the user, administrator, or systems integrator (distribution) has to provide glue. This eliminates bikesheds and thereby fast-tracks adoption at the expense of flexibility and diversity.


Pretty much what everyone has said, well...except for the systemd fanbois


From the comment section:
Quote:
Good post. Clear critique. The lock in is a legitimate concern. Once Linux becomes a Red Hat monoculture the next step will inevitably be fork to a new OS where innovation is allowed & the withering of Linux.


Spot on, and something I've said before even reading this. It's obvious, at least to me, that this is where they are heading.
---

It was a good read, I enjoyed it, even the comments, though there were 2 systemd fanbois that didn't like the article much. :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect most of you have seen the news about Ubuntu: Losing graciously.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't seen the blog by Mark but I'm not surprised, they had already decided to go with systemd.
To me it doesn't matter if all the distros want to go with systemd and that includes gentoo.
I'll simply go back to doing things the way I did for a long time, compile everything myself.

All distros do is make it easy for novices to use linux, even gentoo, though it's for a little bit more knowledgeable audience.
But for those of us who have been doing their own systems for a long time, it's not a big deal to DIY.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

man that's unfortunate, upstart was/is good technology. distro builds community, and makes it so its not just 1 person managing all packages. any insolvency is experienced by several and resolved quicker with less effort.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Ubuntu going systemd Reply with quote

It looks like we are on our own:
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316
http://developerblog.redhat.com/2013/12/13/early-access-rhel7-beta/

I truly hope KDE won't depend on systemd in respect of PC-BSD/FreeBSD.

Edit: My bad, I forgot about Slackware.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've started looking at funtoo, doesn't seem like too great a change except that they haven't been drinking the systemd koolaid.
I've bookmarked the forum and main site for easy access.

I'll stay with gentoo for the nonce, but I'm not going to tolerate any attempt in being forced into systemd,
whether by devs, the gentoo council or the systemd fanbois.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:40 pm    Post subject: Let's not dispair Reply with quote

Telling all server administrators on Debian that they suddenly now have to switch to a new init system will not go down well at all. I simply can't imagine that we'd lose support for iniit systems that are simply init systems, and not kitchen sinks.

Systemd really ought to be called SystemKit. It's like the rest of the kits, but worse.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I'll stay with gentoo for the nonce, but I'm not going to tolerate any attempt in being forced into systemd,
whether by devs, the gentoo council or the systemd fanbois.


I'll put forth the guess that all of the work CPU makers have been putting into virtualization technology could well be equally applicable to microkernels. I wonder if, with a bit of brushing up for modern CPUs, the Hurd might actually perform acceptably.

That's another place to go. Maybe even Gentoo on top of Hurd, the way it also runs on bsd today.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't thought about hurd in quite a while.
I was playing around with minix, when I remember a young Linus first mentioning creating what we now call linux.
Microkernels are interesting.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is in my interest here to say that Gentoo should continue to fully support Openrc and keep it as it's default boot scripts manager. I dont see how Systemd is better. A lot of Linux distributions pass to Systemd as their default boot scripts manager. Gentoo, Debian and Slackware stay with their own native boot init scripts system. It would be a desaster if all Linux distributions pass to Systemd.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logicien wrote:
It is in my interest here to say that Gentoo should continue to fully support Openrc and keep it as it's default boot scripts manager. I dont see how Systemd is better. A lot of Linux distributions pass to Systemd as their default boot scripts manager. Gentoo, Debian and Slackware stay with their own native boot init scripts system. It would be a desaster if all Linux distributions pass to Systemd.


It doesn't seem to matter, systemd is "Oooh, Shiny!" It's also got RedHat backing, though I'm not going to go as anti-RedHat as others. I fear that for the future of systemd take a look at Pulseaudio. In spite of its early problems, and in spite of the fact that it's completely useless for professional audio, Pulseaudio is standard, pretty much everywhere. For that matter, so is Avahi.

The big difference with systemd is what it does to a system's attack surface. I mentioned this, and someone responded that RedHat does security audits. Good, but not enough. If RedHat's security audits were sufficient, there would be no RedHat security errata, because the audits would have caught everything before it went out the door. Audits are necessary, but not sufficient.

Good architecture is at least as necessary as good software.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll clarify my stance on RH, I'm not anti-RH, I'm anti-monopolist.
Whether that be MS, RH, or any other company.

And no I'm not going to debate the term monopolist, we all know what it means
and who is and isn't regardless of whether the law allows it or not. RH is simply
using systemd, the way MS used their hold on windows to shut out competition.
I remember back in the early days of windows when you could run dos and put
a different "windows" on top of it, then they started tying dos to windows and
you couldn't get them separate.

Pretty much what's going on with systemd. Once everyone is "forced" to run it
because distros don't offer any other choice, then RH wins. And the competition
that is hanging on so dearly to RH by way of it, will wither and die. Not my problem,
well other than lack of plenty of choices. When that happens then linux as we've
known it for over a decade will pretty much be gone.

For me I will continue to use non-systemd linux as long as is viable. Which could
realistically last this decade. I had a small server happily running some version of
linux 2.2 even though I was playing with an early version of linux 3 on my desktop.

Anyway, enough rambling....
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
The big difference with systemd is what it does to a system's attack surface. I mentioned this, and someone responded that RedHat does security audits. Good, but not enough. If RedHat's security audits were sufficient, there would be no RedHat security errata, because the audits would have caught everything before it went out the door. Audits are necessary, but not sufficient.


Microsoft do security audits too ...

The big difference today is the amount of effort put into attacking Window systems and Linux Systems.
Its only a matter of time until a big security hole is found in the larger attack surface of systemd.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
There's another systemd rant thread currently active, and following one of the references to a Phoronix discussion I found a reference to this:
Broken by design: systemd http://ewontfix.com/14/...


One comment catches my eye:
Quote:
The second big problem: Attack Surface

On a hardened system without systemd, you have at most one root-privileged process with any exposed surface: sshd. Everything else is either running as unprivileged users or does not have any channel for providing it input except local input from root. Using systemd then more than doubles the attack surface.

This increased and unreasonable risk is not inherent to systemd's goal of fixing legacy init. However it is inherent to the systemd design philosophy of putting everything into the init process


The NSA, GCHQ, KGB, Mossad, whoever it is in China, Porn merchants will all love systemd. It could have been designed to inject trojans into Linux And it's becoming a pre-req for desktops, so everyone they're interested in (that's everyone) gets to run it. It's got a networked control bus, hooks into authentication and privilege, BIOS, firmware and device drives, and implements logging, all in one humungeous lump of code. Bruce Schneier reckons Gentoo is a good place to start for a secure system. systemd makes that moot. I'm not saying the NSA sponsored systemd, just that it's design makes their life so much easier. (and several stranger things have happened).
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a general rule the more complex the software the more the potential attack vectors.
This is where good design and programming practices comes into play.
Auditing is fine, but it's no substitute for the above.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: I hope systemd does not become the default init system Reply with quote

I hope Gentoo does not decide to use systemd as the default init system, it should be available as an option for people who want to use it 8)
I'd prefer no default init system than systemd ...

For me Gentoo with systemd is like a meccano set with quite a few of the piece riveted together - and personally I'd rather have a smaller set of parts I get to put together how I want :wink:

I'm not going to trade simplicity, flexibility and control for convenience ... it's taken me a while to find and appreciate the flexibility and control of Gentoo, but now that I have it I'm not going to surrender some of it to systemd. I'm keeping sys-apps/systemd in package.mask ...

Any individual/group/company that thinks they can increase complexity and use audits to provide equivalent security is IMO some combination of arrogant/ignorant ... given a choice I don't want to run software they develop on my system.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathan183,

jonathan183, wrote:
... Gentoo with systemd is like a meccano set ...

That brings back memories ... I still have my Meccano too.
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