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augustin2
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Starting from scratch to Gnome3.8 Reply with quote

Hi,
I lived happily with my gnome 2 system but recently trying to update my system I ended up with a not running system.
Thus I have to reinstall Gentoo from scratch.
Reading the documentation on the wiki I feel it would be better to switch to Gnome3.8 but the present handbook is not very helpful as it doesn't take into account the use of systemd.
There is also an upgrade guide that is somewhat different from the handbook as it supposes an already running system.
My question is how to proceed. Follow the present handbook to get gnome 2 in a first step then apply the upgrade guide or directly try to install gnome 3.8.
In the first hypthesis I am afraid to end in the same situation I get after my update attempt and in the second situation I am afraid I will not be able to do the right changes from the upgrade guide at the right places in the handbook.
Thank you for advice.
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Wallsandfences
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed a system via the handbook, tried and succeeded in switching to systemd and installed gnome 3.8 afterwards.
But I agree, it would be a lot easier to have a guide that leads one to a running gnome 3.8 from scratch.

Rüdiger
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augustin2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Do you mean :
1 you started from scratch followed the handbook and after rebooting swiched to systemd then rebooted and switched to gnome 3.8
or
2 sarted from scratch followed the handbook but taking into account the changes required for systemd, then rebooted and switched to (installed) gnome 3.8
or
3 or else

If I understand well what you say you could manage to install a system from scratch with gnome 2 (chosing gnome profile) (not being annoyed by the fact gnome3.8 has been made stable) tried it. Then changed to get systemd (making changes to kernel config and chosed a gnome-systemd profile). Tried the system. Then after installed 3.8.
If the last is true, did you make something special to prevent new packages for gnome3 to annoy you?
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd is an option and not a default init system for Gentoo. Gentoo guides are designed or written with openRC in mind and not systemd. So the way things are right now makes lot of sense. Having multiple installation guide of each desktop profile shall be confusing rather than helping a user.
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augustin2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully respect your point of view but I don't agree on this.
Systemd is not an option with Gnome3.8 and I don't see any reason why openRC should be favored in the handbook while gnome2 will not be maintained in the future.
A standard user (I mean a non developer like me) generally needs a desktop environment and a comprehensive guide not made from parts taken here and there and difficult to assemble if you are not a specialist.
I dont think Gentoo (that is the more robust system I know) is intended for use by its developers only.

There was a time when the handbook was very comprehensive and consistent. I regret I could not say the same today but developers are not to blame for this. A tremendous amount of work is done every day for package maintenance and to write the wiki and they have all my respect for this. I just hope the handbook will not be forgotten as it is the main entrance for newbies.
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your point. Since you are stressing this thing of having a documentation on this, it would be very good if you/anyone create a wiki page for the installation with systemd if you are interested and time permitting you. As I see there is a gnome3.8/systemd migration guide which would suffice. But as you state, to be more clear on the documentation front a wiki page would be good too.
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin2
It's just been with the gnome 3.8 that systemd is mandatory and it's still relatively new.

I've seen a reference to a systemd install howto, posted in one of the gnome-3.8 threads.
I didn't pay attention as don't use systemd, gnome, nor I plan to.

Still lots of folks using openrc and not gnome-3.8+.

Having said that, I'm sure that they would love to have your input in writing a handbook for systemd/gnome-3.8+ users.
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augustin2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose, hadrons123
In fact I didn't chose to use Gnome3.8 at first. As I said I was really satisfied with gnome 2 but trying to update my config (I don't mean upgrading to a new desktop env.) I was led in a messy situation (No graphical environment at all while X was still ok -I never met such a situation during the 2 years I have been using Gentoo). Reading pages here and there I understood (may be mistakenly) that gnome3.8 having been made stable coud be the cause of my trouble and that the days of gnome 2 were counted and people encouraged to switch to gnome3.8
Thus I decided to switch to gnome 3.8.
As to write a guide on the wiki, I would like but I am afraid I am not clever enough. I should at least be able to perform the installation once before pretending being able to do so.
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hadrons123
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I moved from udev to systemd to test the boot times and it was pretty straight forward for me follwoing the wiki. I was able to return back to openRC too pretty easily. But not sure why you had black screen and all the troubles. One of the commonest reason is you did not start systemd services required for starting display-manager or some not-so routine configuration in your /etc/fstab.
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augustin2
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made real progress recently. You are right. I forget to enable gdm service. After that I met trouble with keyboard. I can no longer find my French Bepo Typematrix keyboard in the available choices but this an other matter.

I never thought the upgrade guide was not satisfactory in itself. I just said "it is an upgrade guide" not a guide from scratch to end. Thus it may be difficult for a non developer to know what he should do when reading a sentence like this one:
Quote:
The remainder of the Gentoo Handbook focuses on OpenRC as the default init support system. If you want to use systemd instead, or are planning to use Gnome 3.8 and later (which requires systemd), please consult the systemd page on the Gentoo wiki as it elaborates on the different configuration settings and methods.

The Gentoo Handbook can then be followed with that page in mind.


Very often developers do not realize the huge wideness of their background knowledge (that cannot be required from a standard user) and how much this background knowledge help them in interpreting such and such directive. Where they go directly to the point, the standard user has to make informative detours that make him more prone to errors and oversights.

In the day coming I will try to reinstall both versions (gnome2 and gnome 3.8 ) from scratch and may be I will be able to better explain where exactly one can have trouble finding his way.

Whatever it is I would like to thank you again for paying attention to my concern and for your help.
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Wallsandfences
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not intend to say it's bad to have the handbook just as it is.
I just meant it would be nice to have a systemd-based handbook as well. I don't meant to criticize.

I installed the default per handbook, (without x11), then switched to systemd init-system, and then installed gnome 3.8 directly.

Rüdiger
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