Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Really Need a Graphical Installer
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
totony
n00b
n00b


Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
@totony: In the years I've been here (since 2002), I've seen many, many threads on a GUI installer. The main "problem" I consistently see is that people discuss it, but rarely develop one. The technical problem I've heard with an official tool is being able to support all platforms with a single installer. Personally I think a One Size Fits Most solution would be fine.

The main thing I'd like to see more than a GUI installer is something like kickstart.


Imo, a gentoo stage 3 iso is an installation media, and it already supports multiple platforms.

Just choose the right profile, emerge --root=/mnt @system and add stuff you need manually after chrooting into the new system.
Then you just fix your config and everything is fine.

If people want a GUI, they can just code one on top of the stage3 to automate fdisk'ing, formatting, choosing packages, saving configurations and installing the bootloader (not my jam tho).

Also, for kickstart, it just seems like a bash script that creates partitions, format them and copies some configuration files and a list of packages to install (i.e. just copy /var/lib/portage/world and feed it to portage) + a bootloader config script. Am I wrong?

I think portage still needs improvements when using the --root option, but it seems overall easily feasible (both a kickstart-like installation and stage3 installation media).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WWWW
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 30 Nov 2014
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
really need a graphical installer


ububuntutu* <-- there

* Archeological findings in African pottery found ancient inscriptions with the word ububuntutu that translates into: really need a graphical installer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20048

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

totony wrote:
Also, for kickstart, it just seems like a bash script that creates partitions, format them and copies some configuration files and a list of packages to install (i.e. just copy /var/lib/portage/world and feed it to portage) + a bootloader config script. Am I wrong?
I only briefly had a chance to look into it. I was planning on working with quickstart as a starting point. I haven't noticed anything more recent, so I've no idea how much work it needs. Although I'm not a huge fan of kickstart syntax, it is probably a good choice.
_________________
Quis separabit? Quo animo?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

totony wrote:
Also, for kickstart, it just seems like a bash script that creates partitions, format them and copies some configuration files and a list of packages to install (i.e. just copy /var/lib/portage/world and feed it to portage) + a bootloader config script. Am I wrong?

No, you're not wrong; it's easy enough.

We did that a few years ago, but didn't release anything as we don't want maintenance costs, and for my part I don't see it as useful for the community, so we just used it internally.

It's not useful for the community, imo, as we'd end up with swathes of people who haven't done the groundwork for maintaining a Gentoo install, and "just want it to work", exactly like we used to have with the old installer.

They simply end up leaving the distro, as it wasn't really for them, and whinging about it elsewhere (ergo the "compile everything and waste time" myth, which is up there with "ricing" from back in the day.)

It's bad enough everyone's using VMs nowadays, afaic; not at all the same experience.

So in essence, it's not that hard, so anyone who really wants to make an installer can do so.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54028
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
So in essence, it's not that hard, so anyone who really wants to make an installer can do so.


Ah and theres the point. Unless you are installing on lots of systems, how often does the average user do a Gentoo install?
Perhaps as many as three times in the life of a system, if they don't get the idea from the outset that its not possible to fix Gentoo by reinstalling.
I was actually going to say once in the life of a system.

Anyone that needs an installer is either doing it wrong (for Gentoo) or needs to install a lot of systems and there are already several ways to do that without an installer.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
asturm
Developer
Developer


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 8931

PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Anyone that needs an installer is either doing it wrong (for Gentoo) or needs to install a lot of systems and there are already several ways to do that without an installer.

In other words, "Install once, use multiple" ;)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
So in essence, it's not that hard, so anyone who really wants to make an installer can do so.

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Ah and theres the point. Unless you are installing on lots of systems, how often does the average user do a Gentoo install?

Hmm I'm not sure it is; the real point is that, as you say, it's wrong for Gentoo.

What I mean is that if we just look at the initial time cost, then like with any other distro it would make sense to have a quick installer, since you would save time in doing the installation.
However you would waste time in the longer-term, since you would have no real idea of what is going on in your machine.
This applies also where you are provisioning multiple systems; if you don't do at least one or two manually, you're not going to be that familiar with the hardware and any quirks involved, which is going to make ongoing maintenance harder.
(Virtualisation is no excuse, afaic; if anything I see it as a worrying trend.)

In essence you'd have skipped the actual process, and as we saw with the liveCD installer, that simply leads to clueless newbs who've been misled by the "promise" of an "installer", and critically, would not otherwise have bothered with Gentoo. That soon leads to disgruntled "ex-users" who never really were.

In that sense, the installation process is a self-selection phase (as well as a rite of passage.) If you don't have the tenacity to get through that, then you're not going to enjoy Gentoo in the longer-term, nor even be able to maintain it; and both sides (the community and the potential user) would be better off parting ways, sooner rather than later.

If you do, then once you've done two or three separate machines, it's effectively measurement noise in terms of time outlay, across the lifetime of the installation. And you use each one to catch up on how things have changed since last time, if at all. (Usually just the usual tree crap, ime.)

I realise you know and have been saying all this too; I just think the emphasis is different. I've done the whole automated installer thing, and the real problem is as described above; not whether we can make an installer, nor whether it would "save" any time for each person using it (which would usually qualify it as a project worth implementing, and more importantly maintaining.) Rather acknowledge that that is in fact a bad thing for that user, given that they also have to maintain that specific configuration going forward (only they have nfc what's in it.)

As you say, it's perfectly simple to replicate installs after the event, using standard tools like tar or cpio, as well as buildpkg. Anyone who's on that level is way past "needing" an installer though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
totony
n00b
n00b


Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The installation isn't a "rite of passage", it's not even difficult, it's just about untar'ing a stage3 and following a guide.

I mean, don't make things long and tedious for the sake of it. I don't really care about a graphical installer, but it wouldn't differ from the current method (i.e. it only can be beneficial)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hasufell
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 429

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

totony wrote:
The installation isn't a "rite of passage", it's not even difficult, it's just about untar'ing a stage3 and following a guide.

You are absolutely correct. I am as well tired of this argument that people need to follow a step-by-step guide in order to be able to deal with gentoo. It almost sounds like a poor reverse-justification that our package manager is broken and our tree has no consistent quality, so you'll have to be prepared for the pain to come.

Most of what happens during the installation can be automated (instead of copy-pasting stuff, which is essentially what the installation handbook makes you do). And everything that can reasonably be automated, should be automated. That's what IT is about.

totony wrote:
I mean, don't make things long and tedious for the sake of it. I don't really care about a graphical installer, but it wouldn't differ from the current method (i.e. it only can be beneficial)

Yeah, the reason we don't have it is just that for the regular gentoo audience, it doesn't make much of a difference anyway. And gentoo is so fragmented and chaotic that it's barely possible that more than 3 people closely work together on a joint project. And so no one wants to waste his time doing this alone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54028
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

totony,

Correct, the installation process is not and has never been a rite of passage.
Its user training for what will come later.

I've seen a few usurs who have used the graphical installer, when Gentoo had one, go on to trash their install at update time, which was by then, full of user data.
Its not a pretty sight, helping someone rescue their data because they could have practiced and messed up an empty install but skipped the opportunity by using the graphical installer.

hasufell,
I agree that things should be automated ... but only after the basics have been understood.
Didn't you learn to recite your multiplication tables while you were in primary school?
Maybe even long multiplication and division?
You might even have had a set of Napiers Bones in high school.
Sure, today you would use a calculator but you sill understand the basics of what is going on.

The Gentoo install teaches the basics, after they have been mastered, automation is good.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hasufell
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 429

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
The Gentoo install teaches the basics, after they have been mastered, automation is good.

No, it does not.

The basics are about handling your system after the installation is done, dealing with the brokenness of portage, with blockers, obscure autounmask messages and so on. None of that is really part of the installation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54028
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell,

None of that is intended to be a part of the installation.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hasufell
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 429

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
None of that is intended to be a part of the installation.

Exactly, the basics of gentoo are NOT part of the installation procedure.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54028
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell,

What is intended and what is borne out in practice are, in my exrerience, two different things.
I've never done a stable install on anything though, so maybe its different there?
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaglover
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 8291
Location: Saint Amant, Acadiana

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did you learn the first time about fstab? About mount command? Was any of us born knowing what is a partition table? Filesystem? So on ... these are the basics but one has to know them to maintain their Gentoo. If you know all that already it is no trouble to set it all up by hand, automation would be nice but it really will not save much time, and there can be a bug or two that screw up your install and then you have to spend even more time fixing it.
_________________
My Gentoo installation notes.
Please learn how to denote units correctly!


Last edited by Jaglover on Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
a poor reverse-justification that our package manager is broken and our tree has no consistent quality

Perhaps you could raise that with your fellow "developers" instead of us users; after all it's got fsck-all to do with us.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54028
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover,

Jay Vollmer wrote:
Actually, the only truly intuitive interface is the nipple.

_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
totony
n00b
n00b


Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
hasufell wrote:
a poor reverse-justification that our package manager is broken and our tree has no consistent quality

Perhaps you could raise that with your fellow "developers" instead of us users; after all it's got fsck-all to do with us.


You don't have to be a gentoo developper to help out
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54028
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

totony,

... and steveL knows this too.

Gentoo is a community ... we are all in it together. Everyone posting here is helping out.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
unixman
n00b
n00b


Joined: 22 Apr 2015
Posts: 6
Location: I aint tellin u

PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: really need a graphical installer Reply with quote

That's alright, Gentoo isn't for you. There are many other out of the box GUI focused distros, like OpenSUSE, Fedora, and Ubuntu. It's almost like you installed Gentoo before doing any research about it, because someone said "Install Gentoo :^)" on some anonymous imageboard (I mention no names).
_________________
Proud user of Gentoo, Slackware, and FreeBSD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mlauzon76
n00b
n00b


Joined: 22 Sep 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:23 pm    Post subject: Does Gentoo Have A Graphical Installation Interface Yet? Reply with quote

I've always wanted to try Gentoo for years, but the command line installation has turned me off of this distro. Does Gentoo offer a graphical installation interface like a lot of the other distros yet or will I be skipping this distro still..?!
_________________
Michael
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
genoobish
n00b
n00b


Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Gentoo Have A Graphical Installation Interface Yet? Reply with quote

mlauzon76 wrote:
I've always wanted to try Gentoo for years, but the command line installation has turned me off of this distro. Does Gentoo offer a graphical installation interface like a lot of the other distros yet or will I be skipping this distro still..?!

skip it
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John R. Graham
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 10587
Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged above two posts.

- John
_________________
I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

totony wrote:
The installation isn't a "rite of passage", it's not even difficult, it's just about untar'ing a stage3 and following a guide.

I mean, don't make things long and tedious for the sake of it.

No-one said "make it tedious for the sake of it."

As Neddy put it, it's user-training; the first time you do it on real hardware is a rite of passage, precisely because you've never done it before.

It felt exactly like that to me, for sure, and I don't think it's "beneficial" to deny people's experience, nor to carry on as if they've not achieved anything, when you could be celebrating a new arrival instead.
Quote:
I don't really care about a graphical installer, but it wouldn't differ from the current method (i.e. it only can be beneficial)

Complete non-sequitur; care to back it up with reasoning, as we have done?

Above we've outlined exactly how a graphical installer leads to disgruntled "ex-users" who never were, who only go around bad-mouthing Gentoo: decidedly not beneficial for anyone involved, including the forums-users who'd taken time to help that person out.
This has been our experience as a community with graphical installers.

They tend to attract exactly the sort of user who should not be using Gentoo. And that leads to ill-will (as well as questions like: "Why do you even provide a graphical installer, if I have to do all this other command-line stuff afterwards.." which are kind of hard to deny.)

Now, no-one's stopping you or anyone else doing whatever you like, and proving that there is a "beneficial" graphical installer to be written.
Just don't be surprised that old-timers want nothing to do with it, precisely because we've been burnt before, and wasted lots of time in the process, and had to endure rather nasty comments about ourselves and our choice of distro, across the internet, as a result.

IMO by the time you've done all that, you might as well just work on a downstream distro like calculate, because you will be making choices on behalf of your user, and the vast majority of people who reach for it, will be taking whatever you give them.
And, here's the nub: they will have zero idea how to maintain a Gentoo install either, so they're going to need all your handy GUI tools and auto-updates from your binhost, instead.

The ones who already know how to setup Gentoo, or want real control, won't bother; and if you don't want real control, YTF are you using Gentoo?
Use a bindist if you want convenience over control: that's what they're for.

Or a downstream if you want someone else to deal with the "raw" Gentoo.
Heck, start your own.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
How did you learn the first time about fstab? About mount command? Was any of us born knowing what is a partition table? Filesystem? So on ... these are the basics but one has to know them to maintain their Gentoo.

Exactly: the basics of Linux.
Quote:
If you know all that already it is no trouble to set it all up by hand, automation would be nice but it really will not save much time, and there can be a bug or two that screw up your install and then you have to spend even more time fixing it.

++

No real benefit, only loss of transparency, which is vital for replicated installs.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 5 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum