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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
VOIP - I'm not into this yet, but have been considering Google Voice. Can't I do Google Voice without GNOME?


on my system it doesn't show any gnome dependencies...right now (I don't have gnome installed)
Code:
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~amd64" emerge -pv pygooglevoice

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N     ] dev-python/pygooglevoice-0.5-r1  USE="-doc -examples" 75 kB

Total: 1 package (1 new), Size of downloads: 75 kB

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOIP - Also Skype doesn't need polkit & Co. I don't run *kit stuff.

Last week skype tried to pull in pulseaudio though, via a dependency emul-linux-x86-soundlibs. Unnecessary, so disabled pulseaudio too. This is how these packages crawl in.


Update 2013-12-03 19:40 UTC: nope...
Code:
# grep -c pulseaudio /var/log/emerge.log
0


Last edited by lost+found on Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lost+found wrote:
Last week skype tried to pull in pulseaudio though, via a dependency emul-linux-x86-soundlibs. Unnecessary, so disabled pulseaudio too. This is how these packages crawl in.


Indeed, which it why vigilance is necessary, despite those who want to label some as haters, conspiracy minded, etc.

It's my system, I don't want systemd, *kit, dbus, pulseaudio, etc on it.
If someone else wants things on their system, no problem, I won't force my choices on them.
I just wish it went the other way.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
...
If someone else wants things on their system, no problem, I won't force my choices on them.
I just wish it went the other way.

The USE flags also became more opt-out than opt-in since a portage policy change some time ago.

I think (and hope), when the separation in GNU/Linux land becomes bigger, more people will move to the niche window managers and software. That will give a big boost to those projects to become better. In the end we'll all be happy. The mainstream type and new users go to GNOME, KDE with their restricted dependencies on all kinds of kits, to make life easy. The rest will keep themselves busy with the more traditional Linux way of life. By that time Gentoo needs more eselect profiles, userlands, and dedicated USE flags... and separated forums :wink: .
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
lost+found wrote:
Last week skype tried to pull in pulseaudio though, via a dependency emul-linux-x86-soundlibs. Unnecessary, so disabled pulseaudio too. This is how these packages crawl in.


Indeed, which it why vigilance is necessary, despite those who want to label some as haters, conspiracy minded, etc.


Unfortunately, vigilance does not prevent changes. I did a lot of installs last year, and it is becomes more and more harder to keep the system clean.
Once being blocked with flags or patches, bullsh!t software creeps into the system in some other way. With every new portage-snapshot/stage3 tarball there are new holes through which crap creeps in.

When some guys argue that we still have a choice, I'm asking myself, what kind of choice we have?
It is not a choice: to use crap or to move away.

Anon-E-moose wrote:

It's my system, I don't want systemd, *kit, dbus, pulseaudio, etc on it.
If someone else wants things on their system, no problem, I won't force my choices on them.
I just wish it went the other way.


It seems, that we should to move the other way.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

creaker wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Indeed, which it why vigilance is necessary


Unfortunately, vigilance does not prevent changes.


True, but it allows us to keep our system the way we choose, albeit with more work for us.


Quote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:

It's my system, I don't want systemd, *kit, dbus, pulseaudio, etc on it.
If someone else wants things on their system, no problem, I won't force my choices on them.
I just wish it went the other way.


It seems, that we should to move the other way.


That is the expectation of some, but I like confounding those who think all should march to the same drumbeat.
I reiterate, it's my system, not L.P's, not some devs, not some cheerleaders.

Why I participate in these types of discussions is that, at least, I want others to realize that they have a choice.
They don't have to take what they're being attempted to be spoon-fed.
I suppose this is what draws the ire of the cheerleaders, they don't want others to see they have a choice...too bad.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
VOIP - I'm not into this yet, but have been considering Google Voice

What I meant are free (=decentralized) systems without big brother watching you. For centralized ones there are several independent (e.g. skype and google voice). It is even hard to find a non-proprietary SIP client which does not severely depend on gnome or gstreamer indirectly (unless VOIP support is dropped).
However, VOIP is not the only example: cheese, texmaker, evince, brasero, gparted, ...
A lot of nice-to-have things for a desktop - some have non-gnome substitutes (but sometimes only kde, also with bad dependencies on polkit), some have no substitutes or subsitutes with clearly less functionality.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lost+found wrote:
Last week skype tried to pull in pulseaudio though, via a dependency emul-linux-x86-soundlibs

On amd64, pulseaudio was forced with skype from the very beginning. Only you couldn't see it, because it was distributed binary in emul-linux-x86-soundlib. Just verify that you have ~/.pulseaudio with the user who was using skype. So, finally, pulseaudio has become optional with skype...
However, I do not want people watching my talks, so I want to avoid skype as far as possible.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
It's not because examples exist that those examples are logical, it usually depends on the situation and what you think would be logical (you, us and upstream can have different thoughts on that for different reasons); as for KDE base requirements, you can check out kde-base/kdelibs which is a single package that brings a ton of libraries. Why does kde-base/kdelibs bring along kdewebkit if I want to just use kde-base/kcachegrind? Yet, KDE is still bundling kdewebkit in one big kde-base/kdelibs package; because KDE doesn't; can't or want to split its package(s) up. The same can be said about a lot of upstreams out there...


Did you note the whole KDE frameworks 5 splitting effort? They are actually unbundling all the stuff, because they feel that the monolithic kdelibs hold them back: http://dot.kde.org/2013/09/25/frameworks-5
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArneBab wrote:
TomWij wrote:
It's not because examples exist that those examples are logical, it usually depends on the situation and what you think would be logical (you, us and upstream can have different thoughts on that for different reasons); as for KDE base requirements, you can check out kde-base/kdelibs which is a single package that brings a ton of libraries. Why does kde-base/kdelibs bring along kdewebkit if I want to just use kde-base/kcachegrind? Yet, KDE is still bundling kdewebkit in one big kde-base/kdelibs package; because KDE doesn't; can't or want to split its package(s) up. The same can be said about a lot of upstreams out there...


Did you note the whole KDE frameworks 5 splitting effort? They are actually unbundling all the stuff, because they feel that the monolithic kdelibs hold them back: http://dot.kde.org/2013/09/25/frameworks-5
That's a very interesting development. It already is possible to scale a KDE installation fairly down [*], and if this can be done further, it is actually putting in a lot more choice than ever. But don't let us count our chickens before they are hatched. ;)

[*] Note: Everytime I see someone bellyaching about how bloated KDE is, I am always wondering whether they really use the choices they have, or go more like "emerge kde-meta ... woooahh! That's soooo bloated!" - or what? I mean non-semantic & non-kdepim KDE is perfectly possible. I have it on one of my machines. No permanent internet, and mostly development work on remote servers. No polkit, consolekit, upower, udisks, kdepim or semantic desktop needed there. Works fine. Including automounting of USB drives... (*puzzled*)

And than this Blah-Blah about some packages "creaping" in, like the output of emerge wasn't clear enough on that or someone trying to sneak some useless software into anybodies system. Hint: --tree ! Oh, and "equery u" is very helpful, too. Rule of thumb: If it is installed, it is because you have chosen to install it. Catchword "USE flags".

After a friendly reminder of a friend: The above paragraph is perfectly valid, even with systemd and Gnome. You chose Gnome-3.8+, you chose systemd. Whether you like it or not. It is a shame that opting out is the only choice (or not a real choice at all, like creaker already wrote), but sissying around won't help. It's Forking or walking.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
And than this Blah-Blah about some packages "creaping" in, like the output of emerge wasn't clear enough on that or someone trying to sneak some useless software into anybodies system. Hint: --tree ! Oh, and "equery u" is very helpful, too. Rule of thumb: If it is installed, it is because you have chosen to install it. Catchword "USE flags".


They are creeping in. That we have a choice if one uses pretend to see what will be emerged is another matter.
The reason that I use pretend is that things have a tendency to creep in.
Most users aren't knowledgeable enough to understand these things and so yes, they are being forced or creeped upon. ;^)
It's pretty elitist to say that everyone should understand all the ins and outs of computers.
What about your grandma, father, etc are they knowledgeable enough to use pretend?
Me, I've used computers since they were room sized things, so no big deal to me.
But I understand that other people have lives that don't deal with computers in any way, shape or form.


Quote:
The above paragraph is perfectly valid, even with systemd and Gnome. You chose Gnome-3.8+, you chose systemd. Whether you like it or not. It is a shame that opting out is the only choice (or not a real choice at all, like creaker already wrote), but sissying around won't help. It's Forking or walking.


Choice isn't always black and white, and to pretend otherwise is foolish and almost troll-like.
Again read what I wrote above, not everyone is computer literate nor should they be.
That's why those who are like, you, me and others need to speak up, so there can be choice.

We're not bitching about systemd because we hate it, but the way it's being deployed, with lack of choice in many instances.
Gnome-3.8, gtk-3.8, etc are just more of the same.
To find out what is being done, one needs to pretend, which many users aren't familiar with.

So think about that the next time you want to rail and rant against those who say something disparaging against things like systemd.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
And than this Blah-Blah about some packages "creaping" in, like the output of emerge wasn't clear enough

They are creeping in. Seeing the reason does not prevent this. Either you uninstall some software you previously used or maintain/patch it regularly by yourself or you have to accept that the packages are creeping in. The second alternative exists due to lack of resources only for an extremely limited number of packages (or even for none if you cannot afford to spend time fixing the nonsense of upstream).
Quote:
Rule of thumb: If it is installed, it is because you have chosen to install it.

Sure, of course, you can start to remove more and more software from your system. But this is only an option if you do not need that software or if there are alternatives.
Quote:
Catchword "USE flags".

If it would be possible to avoid the packages creeping on by simply deselecting some some USE flags (and only loses corresponding functionality provideed by the "creeping" packages), nobody would complain.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArneBab wrote:
Did you note the whole KDE frameworks 5 splitting effort? They are actually unbundling all the stuff, because they feel that the monolithic kdelibs hold them back: http://dot.kde.org/2013/09/25/frameworks-5


Yes, I am aware and was told so when I was talking to the maintainers about it; but mentioning it right now would have distracted from the example. I might try KDE again if this has completed...

Anon-E-moose wrote:
They are creeping in. That we have a choice if one uses pretend to see what will be emerged is another matter.
The reason that I use pretend is that things have a tendency to creep in.


Consider the opposite with everything disabled by default, installing and upgrading Gentoo would be much harder and quite different.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Most users aren't knowledgeable enough to understand these things and so yes, they are being forced or creeped upon. ;^)


If it works, why bother?

Anon-E-moose wrote:
It's pretty elitist to say that everyone should understand all the ins and outs of computers.
What about your grandma, father, etc are they knowledgeable enough to use pretend?


They don't use it.

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Me, I've used computers since they were room sized things, so no big deal to me.
But I understand that other people have lives that don't deal with computers in any way, shape or form.


Consider the opposite with everything disabled by default, ...; time is money, money is fun, fun is life, life is music, music is emotional, ...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
If it would be possible to avoid the packages creeping on by simply deselecting some some USE flags (and only loses corresponding functionality provided by the "creeping" packages), nobody would complain.


I agree that would be nice, but that won't stop the "modern system" sycophants from coming in
and trying to troll hoping to get yet another thread discussing any choices from being locked down.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

removed for good
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
discussing any choices from being locked down.


Yes; the discussion here is about the status and progress of a gain / loss of choice, as per the topic of this thread. What do you think about that topic?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
And than this Blah-Blah about some packages "creaping" in, like the output of emerge wasn't clear enough

They are creeping in. Seeing the reason does not prevent this.
Okay, I daresay it is just a difference in understanding of the word "creeping".

To me it sounded like someone fishy sneaking up your back, installing useless software while you aren't looking. But that's ridiculous.

I guess this "creeping" thing is rather meant as changes in dependencies, right? But if something depends on something, it isn't useless at all, no matter how much I disagree. So either I can convince upstream to switch to a better solution (If, and only if, I am right on that matter) or I can substitute a package with another that comes without the unwanted dependency. And if such a switch is not possible, because there is no appropriate substitute, the only options I have left are either to simply do without that packages functionality, or to fork it.

So all four possibilities require my action, my attention and my time. What is it good, then, to whine about decisions, that weren't mine, in a forum far far away from those who made these decisions? Does this change something? Can we, as an example, gather a big enough team of volunteers to fork Gnome-3.10 and develop the dependency on systemd out of it this way?

I don't think so.

Claims were made to "want to inform the unaware", and that's a noble thing to do. But it won't do with all the whining, hating, flaming and trolling under which the good intentions have been burrowed.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote something from the heart, realized that it could be taken as inflammatory and decided to delete it. My choice.

I think that there are a few trolls and I have them on ignore,
I occasionally look at what they have to say to see if they are trying to be useful
or simply furthering their goal of being a sycophantic troll, IMO.
Sad to say I am hardly ever disappointed.

I don't want this thread to be locked as it has some valid points to it.
So I will walk away and let it stand rather than have a back and forth that will get it locked. My choice.

Later.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I made the deletion complete. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could this be a pure misunderstanding instead of anything based on intentions?

Anon-E-moose (unverified deleted post) wrote:
Tom wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Most users aren't knowledgeable enough to understand these things and so yes, they are being forced or creeped upon. ;^)

If it works, why bother?

Ignoring other valid points with your blithe BS is why I consider you a troll.


"If it works, why bother?" in that context means in detail "If it works for users that aren't knowledgeable, why should those users bother about understanding it?". One example could be that a non knowledgeable teenager buys a smartphone at a store, how many of such teenagers bother which manufacturer the internal processor, memory and so on are made of; or the way the code in the brand's source code is organized. Nearly nobody non knowledgeable would do so.

There are only reasons to be really bothered if one is extremely bothered up to the point that the user no longer wants to deal with brands but form its own solution, by gaining knowledge in it and start to bother to get things to work the way you want. My laptop is an example of that, it is a bare-bone model where you put the pieces together as you see fit. Taking out the HDD does not void guaranty, as compared to some brand laptop; which is quite useful to try out another HDD or upgrade to a SSD. But this of course requires more knowledge than walking to a store and asking for a laptop where you can do "office work, browsing and music listening" on.

That idea of putting the pieces together is what Gentoo is compared to complete solutions by some other distributions.

For non knowledgeable users concepts like "forcing" and "creep" are non visible, it is out of sight and out of mind; for us that is quite different, our interest makes us read, view and look up these kind of matters up to a point that we are obsessed that we spend a ton more time on it. In that same time we could have hours of fun outdoors. But no, our interest makes it fun messing around with our system; working out something that is perfect for us, because it makes the IT, communication and other related tasks we do much more appreciable than to have to work in something that the majority uses due to popularity. Not everyone likes what is popular though; you can pick random artists, changes are high your feelings about that random group of artists are mixed.

If at a bar someone says "I don't like the music played here, let's go to another bar." you'll find people that agree ("Yes, let's go there."), you'll find people that disagree ("No, I like this playlist and the beer is cheap here.") and you'll find people that are neutral and try to solve it otherwise ("Hmm, can we do something about the music then; perhaps ask the bartender to play another song or two?"); maybe some other types of people are missing. You'll find these three types of people throughout this thread as well; but well, once a matter or discussion comes up it can take some time till resolution, especially with lots of people involved. "And you, sitting at the corner of the table; what do you think? You are going to stay here because you like this crappy music?"

A large share of this post may be off-topic. Yet, in order to get back on-topic I think we should resolve this off-topic matter first as otherwise it stays popping up due to misunderstandings from both sides. Then I would like to understand which choices have been taken away, especially understanding which ones are the most severe; because that's the part where we can focus on resolving that. Forcing people down a particular init system is not in my interest, neither is whatever trolling in this context is supposed to mean or be pointing at. I'm looking for answers to the question(s) this thread poses:

Are we loosing the freedom of choice? Where? Why? Which losses have repercussions under the form of a lot of trouble? Where is systemd problematic when you opt to not use GNOME but are still affected? ...?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought about things and wrote this offline, all I ask is that those who read it think about it with an open mind

Choice OR lack of it

I've seen many posts on the fact that one has a choice.
But let's look at those in a broader view.

If I go to a store and they only offer one brand of bread.
Do I really have a choice?
Let say that instead of a store, the whole city or state does this, then what?
Where is choice?
Note: Not buying bread is really NOT a choice.

If I told you that when you came to my gas station that you could only buy the
most expensive brand of gasoline then you would likely be upset with me for
lack of choice.
Now if it were city wide or state wide what then? Where is choice.
Note: Same here, not buying what someone thinks I should is NOT choice.

This is the kind of thinking that I'm seeing from certain individuals.

Lack of a viable choice IS no choice.

People should just take whatever someone else decided for them IS NOT CHOICE.
If you believe that this IS choice, then let me tell you what you should eat,
drink, smoke or drive. It's the same thing.

I have no problem with new <take your pick> init systems, desktop
environments, etc, or the things they depend on.

I have a problem with them being offered as updates without people
understanding what they are being offered or that they have viable
alternatives.

If those who wish to push the latest init system, for example, were to say,
"you could do <x, y, z> instead" then it would be less of a problem.
But we don't see that.

Those out there who make decisions for others need to think upon this.
Don't just knee-jerk against what is said, reflect upon it.
Put yourself in someone else's position.

Note: I'm not immune from knee-jerk responses, but I do try and reflect upon
what I and others say.

Later people.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
"you could do <x, y, z> instead"


In order to suggest alternatives, we need to identify where no choice is forced. The very first post mentions GNOME 3 and systemd; so, enumerating those two:

1. For users that do not want GNOME 3, do they have limited choice? Is systemd forced upon them? Which packages?

2. For users that do want GNOME 3, do they have limited choice? Is systemd as a forced dependency different than the libraries that packages typically force (eg. ncurses)? This is an upstream matter, what can Gentoo do about this? We could suggest a logind fork if it exists, but we need to get some interested people together to pursue this road; who is up for contributing to this?

For which other lack of choices are we looking for solutions?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

I have no problem with new <take your pick> init systems, desktop
environments, etc, or the things they depend on.

I have a problem with them being offered as updates without people
understanding what they are being offered or that they have viable
alternatives.

If those who wish to push the latest init system, for example, were to say,
"you could do <x, y, z> instead" then it would be less of a problem.
But we don't see that.

Those out there who make decisions for others need to think upon this.
Don't just knee-jerk against what is said, reflect upon it.
Put yourself in someone else's position.


And therein lies my problem with the whole thing... we are being forced into the limits and constraints of software we intentionally DO NOT WANT to use, for purely political reasons of those that are eager to force it onto us. I don't begrudge anyone choosing to use whatever software they want, but just because they want to use something doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to meet their same parameters.

It would be like someone in power deciding they really like bikes, so we should narrow all the roads to the width of bicycles to encourage everyone else to ride bikes too. Then when people complain that a bike doesn't suit their needs, they get told that they can still own a car, but they'll have to build their own new roads because the old roads can now only handle bikes and the fact that the roads used to work for cars was purely coincidental... then proclaim that, because we can completely rebuild the infrastructure that was intentionally destroyed for a political crusade, there's still plenty of choice to go around while they then play definition games with the meaning of "choice". For good measure, they'll peep up every now and then just to try to rub some salt in the wound and stir up animosity, only get all in your face when you've decided you've had enough and really are going to build your own roads...
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depontius
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In particular, systemd is a very touchy subject. As such, the week before last's promotion was very poorly done. At the very least there should have been a news item ahead of time. There have been news items for much smaller changes. It took me a week (Intermittent, of course - I do have a real life, as well as a day job.) to get my systems back into my control, working the way I want them to.

At worst, it gives the appearance that "somebody" is so enthusiastic about systemd that they want us all to have it, whether we're gnome-3.8 users or not, whether we want it or not. I've worked for quite a few years (several decades, in fact) for a big company, big enough that they've been in monopoly trouble in the past. We we're educated every year about not even making the appearance of doing something wrong. By botching the gnome-3.8 upgrade this way, the flames of the systemd word-war have been fanned.

Again I say, a BIG Wag of my finger at the Gentoo PTB.
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TomWij
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Joined: 04 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edit: News has been out for more than two weeks, removed an incorrect assumption.

depontius wrote:
It took me a week (Intermittent, of course - I do have a real life, as well as a day job.) to get my systems back into my control, working the way I want them to.


What we see here is a lot of libraries getting stabilized at a rapid pace, which leads into a higher amount of upgrade work than the typical stabilization pace if you rely on libraries that GNOME 3.8 relies on.

depontius wrote:
At worst, it gives the appearance that "somebody" is so enthusiastic about systemd that they want us all to have it, whether we're gnome-3.8 users or not, whether we want it or not.


See the questions in my previous post. In particular, non-GNOME packages that depend on GNOME packages that depend on systemd are a concern here; are there any you know of? Otherwise I can try to create a script to figure these out.


Last edited by TomWij on Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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