Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Are we losing freedom of choice?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Other Things Gentoo
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1367

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@depontius
+1

Upgrading to Gnome-3.8 and systemd at the same time is like "Hara-Kiri" for many users. I warned in Desktop forum.

There should have been a test like
if day of gdm-3.8 install = day of systemd install
block! warn! of whatever.

Also the profile/.../gnome/systemd was not announced in the forums. Many do try with consolekit enabled. Because <Gnome-3.8 without systemd is a valide possibility the whole crap of non sequential (profile.d alike) but stacked profiles showed up.

In the past a lot of users of the stable release had the experience their release will do the upgrade job of a rolling release in a quiet and unbreakable manner. But this is just coincidence: Gento stable only is about doing the compiling tasks without erroring out.
_________________
fun2gen2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
depontius
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3349

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
The news item for the GNOME 3.8 and systemd migration has been waiting a few days to weeks; the reason it is not pushed out yet, as far as I assume, is because the GNOME 3.8 stabilization is still ongoing and none of the main meta GNOME 3.8 packages has reached stabilization yet. For GNOME users, this works as intended; their meta packages have them use 3.6, until 3.8 is stabilized at which point they get the news item in time.


Then if it's not stabilized, it should not have been pushed out, and the news item should have been pushed out earlier. Take a look at the forums, over the past week and a half people all over have been struggling with this, both those adopting the changes and those wishing not to. If it wasn't ready to go, it never should have been marked stable, and there should have been a news item first. This has been chaos. (not stable)
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TomWij
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Upgrading to Gnome-3.8 and systemd at the same time is like "Hara-Kiri" for many users. I warned in Desktop forum.

There should have been a test like
if day of gdm-3.8 install = day of systemd install
block! warn! of whatever.

Also the profile/.../gnome/systemd was not announced in the forums. Many do try with consolekit enabled.


https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/3.8-upgrade-guide

depontius wrote:
Then if it's not stabilized, it should not have been pushed out, and the news item should have been pushed out earlier. Take a look at the forums, over the past week and a half people all over have been struggling with this, both those adopting the changes and those wishing not to. If it wasn't ready to go, it never should have been marked stable, and there should have been a news item first. This has been chaos. (not stable)


Actually, sorry, I have checked the news repository as well as an online rsync check-out and it has been out for ~18 days already;
I don't see news items get pushed myself as I use a Portage tree CVS check-out which does not contain news items.

You can check it at: /usr/portage/metadata/news/2013-11-23-gnome-38/2013-11-23-gnome-38.en.txt (mirror)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
roki942
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 273
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:

Actually, sorry, I have checked the news repository as well as an online rsync check-out and it has been out for ~18 days already;
I don't see news items get pushed myself as I use a Portage tree CVS check-out which does not contain news items.

You can check it at: /usr/portage/metadata/news/2013-11-23-gnome-38/2013-11-23-gnome-38.en.txt (mirror)

Thanks for the link Tom, I finally got to see it and found out why it never showed up when I did an emerge
Code:
Display-If-Installed: <gnome-base/gnome-3.8
Display-If-Installed: <gnome-base/gnome-light-3.8
Display-If-Installed: <gnome-base/gnome-session-3.8
That's unfortunately why all the people like myself who use gdm and other programs without having one of those 3 installed didn't get to see it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bdx
n00b
n00b


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTF I just did a fresh install last thursday or friday and got a nice gnome 2.x desktop. Yesterday or today nice suprise after an emerge -puvDN world wants to do what ? What is going on ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mv
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6186

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
So either I can convince upstream to switch to a better solution

We just had this topic in the German forums where a troll started yet another propaganda.
The problem is that many "upstream"s have changed recently: After various "maneuvers" the original maintainers of many projects have given in, and the new maintainers are paid by redhat and lead the originally free software now exclusively in firm interest. (Look at the commands given by the chiefs to the submaintainers e.g. in the gnome bug system and you know what I mean.)
Redhats policy is obviously this vertical integration thing after which they have full control of the underlying infrastracture (it seems they are already able to control their competitors like canonical in this respect and thus have obtained an enormous economical advantage - I don't want to repeat all the arguments from the German forum here). So many upstreams do not have the slightest interest in avoiding these dependencies; quite the opposite, in case of systemd you can see that a whole army was employed to invent lies why these dependencies are "technically" unavoidable - so much that meanwhile these lies have become a self-runner.
The originally free maintainers and developers don't have the resources to avoid this pressure (e.g. many gnome developers are now working at mate, but due to lack of resources, such things will always remain niche projects).
Quote:
What is it good, then, to whine about decisions, that weren't mine, in a forum far far away from those who made these decisions? Does this change something?

Gentoo is currently one of the few linux distributions (essentially the only one!) which due to building from source and the USE-Flag mechanism has the technical means to stand the general pressure from upstream. The fight upstream is lost, but at least Gentoo might still ensure that users still have some choice, so these (also in Gentoo decreasing in number) developers must be encouraged that this is desired by most users. This is what this thread is about from its title, isn't it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TomWij
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roki942 wrote:
That's unfortunately why all the people like myself who use gdm and other programs without having one of those 3 installed didn't get to see it.


Yeah, did the exact same here for a while because I wanted to uninstall some packages from gnome-light; I think I later managed to uninstall them by changing USE flags or so and switched back.

bdx wrote:
WTF I just did a fresh install last thursday or friday and got a nice gnome 2.x desktop. Yesterday or today nice suprise after an emerge -puvDN world wants to do what ? What is going on ?


It wants to upgrade from a few years old desktop to a few weeks / months old desktop.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3196
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
So either I can convince upstream to switch to a better solution

We just had this topic in the German forums where a troll started yet another propaganda.


The sycophants and trolls sure want those who are opposed to the mad onslaught to just give up.
Wonder why that is?


Quote:
Quote:
What is it good, then, to whine about decisions, that weren't mine, in a forum far far away from those who made these decisions? Does this change something?


What good comes from whining about others perceived whining? Does this change something? :roll:

Quote:
The fight upstream is lost, but at least Gentoo might still ensure that users still have some choice, so these (also in Gentoo decreasing in number) developers must be encouraged that this is desired by most users. This is what this thread is about from its title, isn't it?


Again it sure seems that every time choice is brought up in a thread,
the same few come in and try and convince everyone else to just give up.
Can they really be so scared that a few want choices and don't want to drink the koolaid because that's what it seems like.
They troll, they bring out the same arguments, they call those who want choice, conspiracists, whiners or luddites.
I don't have a problem with whatever choice they want to make, why are they so scared that I don't want their choice though.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
4.14.62 kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 4.9.4 & 7.3.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yamakuzure
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 2225
Location: Bardowick, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Again it sure seems that every time choice is brought up in a thread,
the same few come in and try and convince everyone else to just give up.
Again I am highly annoyed. First I had to read one of saellaven's non-informational texts (many words, no say) now you pipe in again with the same. What the hell are you two talking about? Or more clearly:

- Who same few try to convince what on whom ?
- We are forced into what limits where, by whom and how ?

Could you two please stop writing riddles that point at nothing but upsetting people and make yourselves clear? How on earth are we to sort out these misunderstandings when, after writing such wonderful and thoughtful texts like you, Anon, just did yesterday night, you come back with something like that ?
This really grinds my gears.
_________________
Important German:
  1. "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
  2. "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Guru
Guru


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
Again it sure seems that every time choice is brought up in a thread,
the same few come in and try and convince everyone else to just give up.
Again I am highly annoyed. First I had to read one of saellaven's non-informational texts (many words, no say) now you pipe in again with the same. What the hell are you two talking about? Or more clearly:

- Who same few try to convince what on whom ?
- We are forced into what limits where, by whom and how ?

Could you two please stop writing riddles that point at nothing but upsetting people and make yourselves clear? How on earth are we to sort out these misunderstandings when, after writing such wonderful and thoughtful texts like you, Anon, just did yesterday night, you come back with something like that ?
This really grinds my gears.


Rather than asking us to constantly rehash the same things over and over again every time someone new steps into the debate, how about searching the forums?

To briefly sum up if you're too lazy, it all comes down to systemd.

RedHat is determined to leverage everyone into their paradigm, using their existing maintainership (dare I say ownership) of several key products to get everyone to adopt Linux to the RH model, in an effort to diminish their competitors and make people more dependent upon RH. Core to this agenda is systemd, with it's many tentacles reaching out all over your system in an effort to force everyone to use it. RH is using it's position in the GNOME Foundation and other upstream projects to force people to use systemd if they want to use newer versions of those projects, which, again, means adopting systemd's full system-wide integration.

In short, RedHat is where Microsoft was in the late 90s, trying to use it's position to force everyone into their playground.

Personally, I think systemd is horrifically designed (if you want to call it designed since it seems to be more akin to its developers generating one NIH syndrome addition after another) and is a major risk to system security, stability and robustness. It also has severe limitations due to the arrogant assumptions of its developers, whom, like Microsoft, believe everyone should do everything according to their one true way. Worse, those of us that choose NOT to use it are now having limitations placed on the system solely because they are intentionally shortsighted limitations built into systemd (see /usr, where the lead of openrc (whom is also a systemd dev) intentionally refused to adopt an already developed and tested simple patch to openrc solely because of systemd's limitations and then got the Council to vote to make systemd's limitations the Gentoo standard for unsupported).

Ultimately, there are several major problems I see stemming from this:
1) complete RH control of the Linux userspace (see Microsoft for why this is bad)
2) Linux stagnates, since you either adopt the one true way or you will be "unsupported" at best. Want to develop a competing window manager? Well, since many distros have already knelt before RH, who is going to use it even if it's technically superior?
3) What's the point of Gentoo if all of the core components of your system are predetermined for you? Forget use flags and virtual packages, you either suck in everything RH wants (and that list continues to grow) or else you can use stagnated old projects or active projects that nobody else is using. If you want to build from source, you might as well use the srpms from RH instead. Forget tuning your software to your needs.
4) What happens when Linux turns into Windows (pretty much their stated goal) and this monolithic nature, the lack of security engineered into systemd, etc gives Linux the same reputation that Windows has for all of the same reasons?


Those of us that use Gentoo generally do so to have more control over our systems... however, the people that favor systemd, aren't content to have systemd as a mere option and they're more than happy to limit your choices to the constraints of systemd and it's tentacles. In short, the road they're going down leads to a place where the existence of Gentoo is pointless. There are those of us who are attempting to keep Gentoo sane, but when the other side abuses its position as devs, Council members, etc, there's little we can do to stop it... which is why I've suggested forking Gentoo before things get out of control.

Now, feel free to attack me as a conspiracy theorist or whatever if it makes you feel better... or maybe, do a little research for yourself, step back and examine the issues before kneejerking as the one true way proponents are certain to do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3196
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite frankly I don't give a flip what yamakazure thinks about me or my posting style,
the only reason I saw any part of his post is that you quoted it, saellaven.

Normally I see
Quote:
Blocked a post by Yamakuzure, click to view
because I'd just as soon avoid trolls and their whining silliness.

With trolls it's round and round and round...ad nauseam, ad infinitum AND IT IS MY CHOICE TO AVOID THEM.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
4.14.62 kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 4.9.4 & 7.3.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rudregues
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 226
Location: Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
1) complete RH control of the Linux userspace (see Microsoft for why this is bad)
What are you talking about? If you can, explain please.



saellaven wrote:
3) What's the point of Gentoo if all of the core components of your system are predetermined for you? Forget use flags and virtual packages, you either suck in everything RH wants (and that list continues to grow) or else you can use stagnated old projects or active projects that nobody else is using. If you want to build from source, you might as well use the srpms from RH instead. Forget tuning your software to your needs.
I think RH is pushing just systemd to our throats, which other packages do you refer? I use Gentoo because o security, stability and control over the system. I like this way, I don't want to be forced replace Gentoo with FreeBSD or anything...



We can tell Gnome project our opinion in it's blogs or it's developers blogs. It's a good way to show them our position (systemd as optional, just for who wants).
_________________
Emerging en gentoo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Guru
Guru


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rudregues wrote:
saellaven wrote:
1) complete RH control of the Linux userspace (see Microsoft for why this is bad)
What are you talking about? If you can, explain please.


systemd and its integration of everything "needed" for a base system (including *kit, udev, probably eventually lvm since RH is the upstream for that too and the current stable lvm breaks my system, etc). I put needed in quotes because technically, it isn't needed right now, but if RH has its way, it will be going forward (see them forcing you into using it if you want to use GNOME and it will only spread from there if left unchecked). Sure, you're fine to use existing software as long as you would like, but if you want the new features of foo-6.1, you'll have to buy into the RH stack.


Quote:

saellaven wrote:
3) What's the point of Gentoo if all of the core components of your system are predetermined for you? Forget use flags and virtual packages, you either suck in everything RH wants (and that list continues to grow) or else you can use stagnated old projects or active projects that nobody else is using. If you want to build from source, you might as well use the srpms from RH instead. Forget tuning your software to your needs.
I think RH is pushing just systemd to our throats, which other packages do you refer? I use Gentoo because o security, stability and control over the system. I like this way, I don't want to be forced replace Gentoo with FreeBSD or anything...


We can tell Gnome project our opinion in it's blogs or it's developers blogs. It's a good way to show them our position (systemd as optional, just for who wants).


Look at how many packages RH is the upstream for... there's way too much control in one place and it's rife for abuse. systemd itself is the antithesis of security, stability and control (well, for you, it's all about RH having control). The GNOME devs don't care about the opinions of its users, which is why it was forked into Mate. Likewise, too many of the Gentoo devs don't care either, they're hell bent on doing what they want regardless of the (lack of) technical merit and the shortsightedness of it all. Anyone not willing to assimilate will be trolled, mocked, etc until they simply give up and walk away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
depontius
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3349

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:

Look at how many packages RH is the upstream for... there's way too much control in one place and it's rife for abuse. systemd itself is the antithesis of security, stability and control (well, for you, it's all about RH having control). The GNOME devs don't care about the opinions of its users, which is why it was forked into Mate. Likewise, too many of the Gentoo devs don't care either, they're hell bent on doing what they want regardless of the (lack of) technical merit and the shortsightedness of it all. Anyone not willing to assimilate will be trolled, mocked, etc until they simply give up and walk away.


I don't quite believe this is really a RedHat conspiracy. I'll give you an alternative explanation, which is really a bit of Hanlon's Razor.

I believe Lennart Poettering was not properly schooled in Unix principles, or at least the schooling didn't take root properly. What he's doing is common overly ambitious and philosophically undisciplined (Note that I said philosophically undisciplined, not codewise undisciplined.) programming. He works for RedHat, which give what he does more weight than if someone else were to attempt it. Couple that with a good-sized number of followers and fanbois, and you can readily get where we are today.

I belive the followers and fabois are an interesting lot. I came to Linux and an OS/2 refugee - something of a contrarian from my very early computing days. Heck, I had a Radio Shack CoCo because I thought that the 6809 was a stunningly well thought-out CPU architecture. I believe Linux has been gathering Windows refugees for some number of years - people who were brought up on Windows from a programming perspective, but were looking for something more - freedom, free beer, etc. People with a Windows background will think that the wrap-all be-all types of software that L.P. is striving for are perfectly normal. As I said in another thread, it's not really "Windows done right", though I can agree that it is "Windows done better". There are certain things philosophically wrong with Windows, and as long as you hang onto those things, you just can't do it right - period. That's where I believe this software is coming from.

The long run will be interesting...
- The first points will be where L.P. crosses Linus. It has already happened once, and Linux refused to accept binary logging into the kernel. I wonder what will happen when systemd prevents Linus from doing what he wants to with his own computer, or gets in his way too hard. I wonder how he'll take it when his ethernet devices change names. (or how he took it when it happened, if it broke something)
- Right now Tejun Ho has stated that current cgroups are a mess, and is reworking the code. Unfortunately it's going to be a versioned API, so we'll see where that goes, whether the proper version never gets used because systemd nails to the original version.
- In the very long run I expect there to be problems. It's possible that the systemd (and *kit, and other freedesktop.org stuff) will have security bugs, or some other sort of difficult bugs. It's also possible that the code will be "perfected" and not have those bugs.
-- If the bugs are bad enough, whatever non-systemd distributions are left will pick up new usage.
-- If the bugs get squashed, or if the code is/becomes "pefect", I expect it to have trouble because of versatility. Think "Microsoft Word reader/writer". It's so convoluted that the source code IS the documentation, and it's practically impossible to work with, because it's so big an complex. It's brittle, and even with the care Microsoft has taken, there are reports that compatibility with older versions of Word documents has been lost.
-- Sublesson - Modular doesn't just mean split into modules. It also means clean and documented interfaces between modules. That also would enable breaking the package into parts, and selectively replacing those parts, if desired. (That would solve most of my objections to systemd, by the way.) If it doesn't do that, then it's not really modular.
- In the very long run, I expect to see someone reimplement systemd, doing it "The Unix Way."
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Guru
Guru


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
saellaven wrote:

Look at how many packages RH is the upstream for... there's way too much control in one place and it's rife for abuse. systemd itself is the antithesis of security, stability and control (well, for you, it's all about RH having control). The GNOME devs don't care about the opinions of its users, which is why it was forked into Mate. Likewise, too many of the Gentoo devs don't care either, they're hell bent on doing what they want regardless of the (lack of) technical merit and the shortsightedness of it all. Anyone not willing to assimilate will be trolled, mocked, etc until they simply give up and walk away.


I don't quite believe this is really a RedHat conspiracy. I'll give you an alternative explanation, which is really a bit of Hanlon's Razor.

I believe Lennart Poettering was not properly schooled in Unix principles, or at least the schooling didn't take root properly. What he's doing is common overly ambitious and philosophically undisciplined (Note that I said philosophically undisciplined, not codewise undisciplined.) programming. He works for RedHat, which give what he does more weight than if someone else were to attempt it. Couple that with a good-sized number of followers and fanbois, and you can readily get where we are today.


LP is a RH employee... RH pays him and empowers him. Looking to Hanlon's Razor, it must mean that LP's actions benefit RH... and, IMO, it does it by creating lock-in. Sure, you can get your lock-in flavored with any distro, but at the end of the day, it's RH's playground, so you're locked into their paradigm.

Quote:

I belive the followers and fabois are an interesting lot. I came to Linux and an OS/2 refugee - something of a contrarian from my very early computing days. Heck, I had a Radio Shack CoCo because I thought that the 6809 was a stunningly well thought-out CPU architecture. I believe Linux has been gathering Windows refugees for some number of years - people who were brought up on Windows from a programming perspective, but were looking for something more - freedom, free beer, etc. People with a Windows background will think that the wrap-all be-all types of software that L.P. is striving for are perfectly normal. As I said in another thread, it's not really "Windows done right", though I can agree that it is "Windows done better". There are certain things philosophically wrong with Windows, and as long as you hang onto those things, you just can't do it right - period. That's where I believe this software is coming from.


I share a similar background, having started on a CoCo, moving to Tandy PCs at home and in high school, before starting to build my own PCs (where I ran DOS and then OS2 while experimenting with Linux as early as 1993/94). I ended up at college, where I was promptly plopped down into the middle of all the various *NIX systems available at the time (sparc, solaris, vax, etc). Being a computer engineering major, there was a strong benefit to me using Linux as a free alternative that ran on my own computer, since it allowed me to work on and debug my projects without having to be in the school's labs and I've been with it ever since.

Quote:
The long run will be interesting...
- The first points will be where L.P. crosses Linus. It has already happened once, and Linux refused to accept binary logging into the kernel. I wonder what will happen when systemd prevents Linus from doing what he wants to with his own computer, or gets in his way too hard. I wonder how he'll take it when his ethernet devices change names. (or how he took it when it happened, if it broke something)


I largely agree with your list... this I wanted to single out though. Linus has a lot of opinions on userspace, but he's primarily concerned with the kernel for obvious reasons. Outside of his authority regarding the kernel (where he has provided a check against LP and friends), his rants against the brokenness of userspace have largely gone unheard (see him flaming the KDE devs, switching to GNOME, only to flame them... while noting that you could put LP, KDE, GNOME etc all under the same freedesktop.org umbrella).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3196
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
I don't quite believe this is really a RedHat conspiracy. I'll give you an alternative explanation, which is really a bit of Hanlon's Razor.


I tentatively agree about the RH conspiracy.
Now having said that I'm pretty sure that RH wants to be the linux company as they once were considered
rather than their current place of just one of the crowd.

For the rest of what you said, re LP, windows philosophy, etc. I tend to agree.

Quote:
The long run will be interesting...
- The first points will be where L.P. crosses Linus. It has already happened once, and Linux refused to accept binary logging into the kernel. I wonder what will happen when systemd prevents Linus from doing what he wants to with his own computer, or gets in his way too hard. I wonder how he'll take it when his ethernet devices change names. (or how he took it when it happened, if it broke something)
- Right now Tejun Ho has stated that current cgroups are a mess, and is reworking the code. Unfortunately it's going to be a versioned API, so we'll see where that goes, whether the proper version never gets used because systemd nails to the original version.
- In the very long run I expect there to be problems. It's possible that the systemd (and *kit, and other freedesktop.org stuff) will have security bugs, or some other sort of difficult bugs. It's also possible that the code will be "perfected" and not have those bugs.
-- If the bugs are bad enough, whatever non-systemd distributions are left will pick up new usage.
-- If the bugs get squashed, or if the code is/becomes "pefect", I expect it to have trouble because of versatility. Think "Microsoft Word reader/writer". It's so convoluted that the source code IS the documentation, and it's practically impossible to work with, because it's so big an complex. It's brittle, and even with the care Microsoft has taken, there are reports that compatibility with older versions of Word documents has been lost.
-- Sublesson - Modular doesn't just mean split into modules. It also means clean and documented interfaces between modules. That also would enable breaking the package into parts, and selectively replacing those parts, if desired. (That would solve most of my objections to systemd, by the way.) If it doesn't do that, then it's not really modular.
- In the very long run, I expect to see someone reimplement systemd, doing it "The Unix Way."


A nice list. It will be interesting to see what Linus does when and if systemd gets in his way.

I don't have a problem with systemd, per se. I think it's overly ambitious and that will bite them in the a$$ eventually.
I still remember the foray into HAL and the reason for dumping it (it was too hard to do right) and it wasn't near as
ambitious as systemd is. But time will tell.

I just don't want my system to be used as a testing ground for someone else trying to do things "the one true way".
If they want to hose their system, more power to them.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
4.14.62 kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 4.9.4 & 7.3.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Guru
Guru


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 480

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:

I don't have a problem with systemd, per se. I think it's overly ambitious and that will bite them in the a$$ eventually.
I still remember the foray into HAL and the reason for dumping it (it was too hard to do right) and it wasn't near as
ambitious as systemd is. But time will tell.


Given their history, I expect it to be a complete and total disaster... We all wasted how much time and effort on HAL, then *kit, etc?

Quote:

I just don't want my system to be used as a testing ground for someone else trying to do things "the one true way".
If they want to hose their system, more power to them.


++

I want my computer to work the way I want it to, I don't want other people telling me how my computer must work because they were too arrogant to consider the notion that other people may have different needs or methods of doing things.

I have NO PROBLEM at all with people that want to use systemd. Just keep it and the artificial limitations it creates away from my systems since it doesn't work the way I want it to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
creaker
l33t
l33t


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 651

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:

I want my computer to work the way I want it to, I don't want other people telling me how my computer must work because they were too arrogant to consider the notion that other people may have different needs or methods of doing things.


Computer is too powerful tool to let you use it on your own.
De facto, the computer has become the main tool for espionage, controlling and brainwashing. If anyone doubts, it can be googled. There are a lot of software and hardware backdoors (FreeBSD hardware random number generator backdoor, OpenBSD IPSec FBI backdoor, Intel Active Management Technology, NSA backdoors and so on). No need to remind that the Windows is a one big Microsoft's backdoor. Now RH leads us down the Microsoft road. And their binary oriented and extremely complicated for ordinary users systemd is an ideal nest for any bullsh!t.
For those who want to say that this is paranoia, I can say: if you are not blinded and brainwashed, just google it. Open your eyes and look around whats going on.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
depontius
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3349

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was deciding which thread to post this on, and since this one has "choice" in the title, here it goes.

Another daemon for managing control groups - https://lwn.net/Articles/575672/

In short, the new cgroup interface can have only one manager. If you want to use cgroups, you need a manager. At the moment, that's either systemd or this new one. As one could guess, systemd wants to be THE owner, and isn't interested in playing with others - my way or the highway. The approach being taken by "cgmanager" is to be THE manager, since that's the way the kernel is designed, but it's trying to play well with others, more the old Unix way.[/url]
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3196
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, a tool that does one thing vs the kitchen-sink approach..

Boy, that's a tough choice [/sarcasm] LoL


This is pretty much what's been seen said about many things concerning systemd's internals, and which the systemd sycophants want to ignore
Quote:
Where does systemd fit into this picture? The answer to that seems to essentially be: not at all. Systemd has its own control group interface that it intends to proceed with. Two messages from June make it pretty clear that Lennart Poettering, at least, is not particularly interested in having systemd work with another cgroup manager or to provide cgroup management in a library. Poettering's contention that init should not be dependent on some other daemon seems sensible, but forcing anyone who wants to use cgroups to use systemd clearly isn't.


One can use any systemd subsystem name in the bolded statement, udev, logind, etc.


Personally I think he should just rewrite linux and then he can have it all, call it Pottering's OS or POS for short. :wink:
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
4.14.62 kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 4.9.4 & 7.3.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon


Last edited by Anon-E-moose on Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 6814

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
The approach being taken by "cgmanager" is to be THE manager, since that's the way the kernel is designed, but it's trying to play well with others, more the old Unix way.


One tools one goal.
A tool that will care about others.
It seems extraordinary that this tool is just trying to do what is done for years (with systemd broken concept mentality in mind).

But in my opinion, i think that tool shouldn't play well with systemd : You don't play the game, i'm not playing it with you too.
Because LP's is so a liar that i already see : hey systemd is modular, look cgmanager could be use with it !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
depontius
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3349

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
depontius wrote:
The approach being taken by "cgmanager" is to be THE manager, since that's the way the kernel is designed, but it's trying to play well with others, more the old Unix way.


One tools one goal.
A tool that will care about others.
It seems extraordinary that this tool is just trying to do what is done for years (with systemd broken concept mentality in mind).

But in my opinion, i think that tool shouldn't play well with systemd : You don't play the game, i'm not playing it with you too.
Because LP's is so a liar that i already see : hey systemd is modular, look cgmanager could be use with it !


From what I read in TFA, the cgmanager author approached L.P. about playing well, but was rebuffed. I don't like what L.P. is doing either, but it's not right to throw the same behavior back at him.
_________________
.sigs waste space and bandwidth
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 6814

PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Follow-up https://lwn.net/Articles/557082/
Quote:
Google does not currently run systemd and is not thrilled by the prospect of having to switch to be able to make use of cgroup functionality. So Tim responded that "If systemd is the only upstream implementation of this single-agent idea, we will have to invent our own, and continue to diverge rather than converge." There is no particular judgment against systemd implied by that position; it is simply that making that switch would affect a whole lot of things beyond cgroups, and that is more than Google feels like it would want to take on at the moment.


depontius: thank you ! You've made my day !!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Other Things Gentoo All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum