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Dominique_71
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is the US government. The peoples of both the US and Cuba, as well than in any other country, just want to live in peace. What are yo afraid of? If Capitalism is as good than you believe, why, instead of following a policy that use force and doesn't work, you don't want to use the charm of Capitalism?

This is not to you, or to anyone else, to decide for the Cuban people. And they vote. Not only they vote, but before the votes, it is the people itself that choose the candidates. So, why not just use the charm of capitalism? It is so good.

Are you afraid a small and poor socialist country can do better than the US? Or are you like your government, obsessed to add one more star to your flag?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
As they cannot buy spare parts, most of the old US cars in Cuba have modern 4 cylinders diesel motors made in Europa.
So not even that can be used as a credible claim of Peak Oil.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
There is not "blockade" of Cuba. It's an embargo (a refusal to trade with) and it's perfectly without our rights to do it.

The title of the UN resolution is ‘Archaic, Punitive’ Embargo Must be Consigned to History Books, Say Speakers, as General Assembly, for Twenty-First Year, Demands End to Cuba Blockade

The UN use both terms. And I am living in a free country where I can use the term I want and where it is no NSA to spy on me.

The NSA doesn't stop anybody from being just plain wrong, and that's what you are -- just plain wrong. The use of the word "blockade" to refer to our lack of a trade relationship with Cuba is pure propaganda. There is no blockade.

Dominique_71 wrote:
Quote:
It's also perfectly within the rights of the UN General Assembly to vote to ask us to lift the embargo, and perfectly within the rights of the U.S. to ignore it. No nation is obligated to trade with anybody they don't want to. Cuba has plenty of options for trading partners.

You are wrong on this. According to the UN chart, no country can take unilateral measure like an embargo against another free country. So, the USA is just violating the UN chart.

Bullshit.

Dominique_71 wrote:
Also, the blockade is extraterritorial, and this is for that it is a blockade and not an embargo. Exactly like an US citizen that smoke a Cuban cigar can be fined or put in jail, a company that deal with Cuba can be fined and prevented from doing business in the USA.
.
No, that doesn't make it extraterritorial or a blockade. With some humanitarian exceptions (mostly for charities), U.S. companies are forbidden from trading with Cuba, period, the end. That naturally extends to aspects of their operations that take place outside our country. The laundry list of examples you give are all quite normal, ethical, and in keeping with this. No country is obligated to trade with another.

Dominique_71 wrote:
Quote:
They are one of only a couple of countries left still living in the Dark Ages of totalitarian communism, and we're not going to fund the development of a North Korea a hundred miles off our shores.

The problem is the US government. The peoples of both the US and Cuba, as well than in any other country, just want to live in peace. What are yo afraid of? If Captalism is a good that you believe, why, instead of following a policy that use force and doesn't work, you don't want to use the charm of Capitalism?

This has nothing to do with fear or capitalism. It is about a brutal totalitarian regime and its human rights abuses. What force are we using? The "force" of plucking your fleeing refugees out of the water before they drown? By the way, a Cuban refugee arrived today, having paddled all the way standing up on a board (24 hours non-stop). If Communism is so great, then how is it such a problem that the U.S. won't trade with Cuba? Cuba needs a capitalist economy to leech off of?

Dominique_71 wrote:
This is not to you, or to anyone else, to decide for the Cuban people. And they vote. Not only they vote, but before the votes, it is the people itself that choose the candidates. So, why not just use the charm of capitalism? It is so good.

We're not deciding anything for the Cuban people. It's also "not to you" to, or anybody else, to decide who the U.S. will trade with. This has nothing to do with capitalism; you are confusing the economic and social dimensions of reality (although I suppose that is partly what defines a Communist). Supposed democracy and voting in Cuba is a sham and everybody knows it. Cuba is a one-party dictatorship and is even less democratic than the former Soviet Union (which at least didn't have hereditary succession of power). You can't have democracy without freedom of speech and thought, which don't exist in Cuba, where people who disagree with the State or the Party are imprisoned, tortured, or killed.

Dominique_71 wrote:
Are you afraid a small and poor socialist country can do better than the US? Or are you like your government, obsessed to add one more star to your flag?

If the U.S. actually wanted to add more stars to our flag, there'd be stars there for all those countries you claim we've "invaded". But guess what. There aren't. If the U.S. actually wanted to annex Cuba, or use force against it at all, it would have happened following the collapse of the Soviet Union. But guess what. It hasn't happened. Your whole world-view is a house of cards based on misinformation.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I resume what you said, the UN resolution that use both the terms embargo and blockade is bullshit and propaganda. Sure, I understand it, a world peace organization can only be bullshit and propaganda for a war lord like you! :lol:

I also gave links on US government papers. So, according to you, these agencies are issuing a house of cards based on misinformation. I just can agree with you on that point. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

Henry Ford (1863-1947)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
If I resume what you said, the UN resolution that use both the terms embargo and blockade is bullshit and propaganda. Sure, I understand it, a world peace organization can only be bullshit and propaganda for a war lord like you! :lol:

The UN often comes out with bullshit and propaganda. Moreover, the General Assembly almost always votes "yes" to anything of no actual consequence that gives the appearance of human concern.

The bottom line is that nobody has the authority to tell a country with whom they can and cannot trade.

Dominique_71 wrote:
Quote:
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

Henry Ford (1863-1947)

In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second.

Completely irrelevant. If capitalism were driving this, trade with Cuba would have been opened the day the Soviets pulled their missiles out. Trade with Cuba would be economically beneficial to the U.S. and enrich many of its powerful citizens and corporations. Capitalism's got nothing to do with this, and neither does banking or monetary systems. This is a social issue. Quite typical of a Communist to confuse the two.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
If I resume what you said, the UN resolution that use both the terms embargo and blockade is bullshit and propaganda. Sure, I understand it, a world peace organization can only be bullshit and propaganda for a war lord like you! :lol:

The UN often comes out with bullshit and propaganda. Moreover, the General Assembly almost always votes "yes" to anything of no actual consequence that gives the appearance of human concern.
who's the one spouting propaganda now...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
If I resume what you said, the UN resolution that use both the terms embargo and blockade is bullshit and propaganda. Sure, I understand it, a world peace organization can only be bullshit and propaganda for a war lord like you! :lol:

The UN often comes out with bullshit and propaganda. Moreover, the General Assembly almost always votes "yes" to anything of no actual consequence that gives the appearance of human concern.
who's the one spouting propaganda now...

I am just making a personal observation, in front of a handful of people. How many times have we mocked the "strongly-worded letters" from the UN in here? You know what I'm saying is true.

By the way, among other things, they are on Cuba's case about human rights violations, the murders of dissidents, the imprisonment and abuse of foreign journalists, the selling of weapons to North Korea, etc., but is it of any consequence? No. Just like most things the UN General Assembly does, it's just noise.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The use of the word "blockade" to refer to our lack of a trade relationship with Cuba is pure propaganda. There is no blockade.
You try to fly to Cuba. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The use of the word "blockade" to refer to our lack of a trade relationship with Cuba is pure propaganda. There is no blockade.
You try to fly to Cuba. :lol:

Me flying to Cuba has nothing to do with the ability of non-Americans to fly to or trade with Cuba and does not make our relationship with Cuba a "blockade".
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The use of the word "blockade" to refer to our lack of a trade relationship with Cuba is pure propaganda. There is no blockade.
You try to fly to Cuba. :lol:

Me flying to Cuba has nothing to do with the ability of non-Americans to fly to or trade with Cuba and does not make our relationship with Cuba a "blockade".

I gave you plenty of examples of the extraterritorial nature of the embargo, which turn it into a blockade. I know someone who is not convinced with a good example will not be more convinced by thousands of examples.

Hopefully, peoples like you are a tiny minority. See JAY Z "Open Letter" At that time, 18'415 listeners like this song, and only 1'478 don't like it.

See also The Cuba Lobby- BY WILLIAM M. LEOGRANDE, foreignpolicy.com:
Quote:
The most powerful lobby in Washington isn’t the NRA. It’s the Castro-hating right wing that has Obama’s bureaucrats terrified and inert.
...
In Miami, conservative Cuban-Americans have long presumed to be the sole authentic voice of the community, silencing dissent by threats and, occasionally, violence. In the 1970s, anti-Castro terrorist groups like Omega 7 and Alpha 66 set off dozens of bombs in Miami and assassinated two Cuban-Americans who advocated dialogue with Castro. Reports by Human Rights Watch in the 1990s documented the climate of fear in Miami and the role that elements of the Cuba Lobby, including CANF, played in creating it.
...
Like the China Lobby before it, the Cuba Lobby has also struck fear into the heart of the foreign-policy bureaucracy. The congressional wing of the Cuba Lobby, in concert with its friends in the executive branch, routinely punishes career civil servants who don’t toe the line. One of the Cuba Lobby’s early targets was John J. “Jay” Taylor, chief of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana, who was given an unsatisfactory annual evaluation report in 1988 by Republican stalwart Elliott Abrams, then assistant secretary of state for inter-American affairs, because Taylor reported from Havana that the Cubans were serious about wanting to negotiate peace in southern Africa and Central America. “CANF had close contact with the Cuban desk, which soon turned notably unfriendly toward my reporting from post and it seemed toward me personally,” Taylor recalled in an oral history interview. “Mas and the foundation soon assumed that I was too soft on Castro.”

The risks of crossing the Cuba Lobby were not lost on other foreign-policy professionals. In 1990, Taylor was in Washington to consult about the newly launched TV Martí, which the Cuban government was jamming so completely that Cubans on the island dubbed it, “la TV que no se ve” (“No-see TV”). But TV Martí’s patrons in Washington blindly insisted that the vast majority of the Cuban population was watching the broadcasts. Taylor invited the U.S. Information Agency officials responsible for TV Martí to come to Cuba to see for themselves. “Silence prevailed around the table,” he recalled. “I don’t think anyone there really believed TV Martí signals were being received in Cuba. It was a Kafkaesque moment, a true Orwellian experience, to see a room full of grown, educated men and women so afraid for their jobs or their political positions that they could take part in such a charade.”
...
If Obama intends to finally keep the 2008 campaign promise to take a new direction in relations with Cuba, the job can’t be left to foreign-policy bureaucrats, who are so terrified of the Cuba Lobby that they continue to believe, or pretend to believe, absurdities — that Cubans are watching TV Martí, for instance, or that Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism. Only a determined president and a tough secretary of state can drive a new policy through a bureaucratic wasteland so paralyzed by fear and inertia.

The irrationality of U.S. policy does not stem just from concerns about electoral politics in Florida. The Cuban-American community has evolved to the point that a majority now favors engagement with Cuba, as both opinion polls and Obama’s electoral success in 2008 and 2012 demonstrate. Today, the larger problem is the climate of fear in the government bureaucracy, where even honest reporting about Cuba — let alone advocating a more sensible policy — can endanger one’s career. Democratic presidents, who ought to know better, have tolerated this distortion of the policy process and at times have reinforced it by allowing the Cuba lobby to extort concessions from them. But the cost is high — the gradual and insidious erosion of the government’s ability to make sound policy based on fact rather than fantasy.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are using a rap artist as a source? What? What's happening? Argggh.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
You are using a rap artist as a source? What? What's happening? Argggh.


The point is look at its popularity. And look at the other sources, including the one on the Cuba Lobby, and maybe then you will have real argumentation instead of an easy joke. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
You are using a rap artist as a source? What? What's happening? Argggh.


The point is look at its popularity. And look at the other sources, including the one on the Cuba Lobby, and maybe then you will have real argumentation instead of an easy joke. :lol:

I saw the other sources. How is Jay Z a source, people would buy his music regardless of any political agenda?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
You are using a rap artist as a source? What? What's happening? Argggh.


The point is look at its popularity. And look at the other sources, including the one on the Cuba Lobby, and maybe then you will have real argumentation instead of an easy joke. :lol:

I saw the other sources. How is Jay Z a source, people would buy his music regardless of any political agenda?


I don't think so. Rap is the CCN of the ghetto, and if it is commercial rap, its first intend is to tell something, inclusive on the political issues. Also, you don't say why a rapper, because he is a rapper, cannot understand what is going on.

Another point is the peoples in their majorities, both in Cuba, in the US and in any other country just want to be able to work, love and live in peace. They just don't buy anymore when corrupt politicians and officials want to make war or use barbarian and criminal means like a blockade or any other form of force.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Commercial rap. There's your first clue....
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Commercial rap. There's your first clue....

And all the other link's I gave is yours...

Quote:
Love, work and knowledge are the wellsprings of our life. They should also govern it.


It is why all the peoples in the world just want to be able to work, love and live in peace. They just don't buy anymore when corrupt politicians and officials want to make war or use barbarian and criminal means like a blockade or any other form of force.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The use of the word "blockade" to refer to our lack of a trade relationship with Cuba is pure propaganda. There is no blockade.
You try to fly to Cuba. :lol:

Me flying to Cuba has nothing to do with the ability of non-Americans to fly to or trade with Cuba and does not make our relationship with Cuba a "blockade".
Sure, there is still the shortcut via Canada.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
The use of the word "blockade" to refer to our lack of a trade relationship with Cuba is pure propaganda. There is no blockade.
You try to fly to Cuba. :lol:

Me flying to Cuba has nothing to do with the ability of non-Americans to fly to or trade with Cuba and does not make our relationship with Cuba a "blockade".

I gave you plenty of examples of the extraterritorial nature of the embargo, which turn it into a blockade. I know someone who is not convinced with a good example will not be more convinced by thousands of examples.

No, you didn't. None of them demonstrated that it is a "blockade" or that there is anything unethical about doing it. Providing yet more of the same just makes you even more wrong,

The idea that there's some kind of effective "Cuba Lobby" is ridiculous. While there may be some pittance of funds being gathered ($3 million over the past 5 elections is NOTHING), there is far more corporate interest in opening trade with Cuba. Jay-Z and Beyonce didn't go to Cuba as some kind of Humanitarians; they went there as the minions of Capitalist and Corporations, hoping to break open a new market they can get rich on, new sources of certain materials, new travel destinations, and more cheap labor. The humanitarians are the ones insisting that we embargo Cuba until they make some progress in terms of individual and human rights, policies reinforced by Bill Clinton and Barack Obama.

A isn't obligated to trade with Cuba any more than an individual is obligated to do business with a company that beats its employees and forces them into Scientology. A country isn't obligated to trade with Cuba any more than an individual is obligated to go golfing with or loan tools to their neighbor who has his daughters chained to the walls of his basement and is regularly digging small graves in his back yard.

Cuba is the North Korea of the Western hemisphere. Their problems are all self-inflicted. The more you spew irrelevant garbage or propaganda made up the Cuban regime, the more you convince people that you have nothing to say that's hearing, so I suggest you stop talking. I, for one, am done listening.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking forward to seeing what post-Castro Cuba looks like. Except for his ego, surely not even Fidel thinks the country is doing well. Not that he ever cared about the people.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing what post-Castro Cuba looks like. Except for his ego, surely not even Fidel thinks the country is doing well. Not that he ever cared about the people.

I think it's only a matter of a few more years before they go they way of the USSR and China. Then we can turn the place into one giant sugar plantation and beach resort.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing what post-Castro Cuba looks like. Except for his ego, surely not even Fidel thinks the country is doing well. Not that he ever cared about the people.

I think it's only a matter of a few more years before they go they way of the USSR and China. Then we can turn the place into one giant sugar plantation and beach resort.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Exactly what I said, some peoples here just want to decide for the Cuban people what they have to do. In good English this is called neocolonialism. This barbarian and criminal policy have been a complete failure - even according to many official US reports - under more than 50 years, only arm the Cuban people, make it strongly anti-American, and make the US administration to look like a fool to most of the peoples in the rest of the world and in the US as well, and for all countries at the exception of Israel and Palau, but they still want to pursue it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Quote:
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein


All the peoples in the world just want to be able to work, love and live in peace. They just don't buy anymore when corrupt politicians and officials want to make war or use barbarian and criminal means like a blockade or any other form of force.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
some peoples here just want to decide for the Cuban people what they have to do. In good English this is called neocolonialism.
What did you think would happen if the trade embargo ended, that you'd have a say in the transformation?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Indeed.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=Dominique_71"]]some peoples here just want to decide for the Cuban people what they have to do. In good English this is called neocolonialism.[/quote]
When I said, "then we can turn the place into one big sugar plantation and beach resort", I was joking, fool. The fact that you couldn't tell shows just how far over the edge you've gone. :roll:

Dominique_71 wrote:
All the peoples in the world just want to be able to work, love and live in peace. They just don't buy anymore when corrupt politicians and officials want to make war or use barbarian and criminal means

Exactly! Hence, we embargo Cuba. You need to think about that.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
some peoples here just want to decide for the Cuban people what they have to do. In good English this is called neocolonialism.
What did you think would happen if the trade embargo ended, that you'd have a say in the transformation?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Indeed.


When this will append, it will be to the Cuban people to decide what they want to do. Not to me or to you.
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Dominique_71
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
[quote=Dominique_71"]]some peoples here just want to decide for the Cuban people what they have to do. In good English this is called neocolonialism.

When I said, "then we can turn the place into one big sugar plantation and beach resort", I was joking, fool. The fact that you couldn't tell shows just how far over the edge you've gone. :roll: [/quote]
Sure, and the criminal US embargo is a joke that arm the whole Cuba people and strength the communist government - this is exactly what many official US reports are saying, at the exception they don't call it a joke.

Quote:

Dominique_71 wrote:
All the peoples in the world just want to be able to work, love and live in peace. They just don't buy anymore when corrupt politicians and officials want to make war or use barbarian and criminal means

Exactly! Hence, we embargo Cuba. You need to think about that.


Instead of making an embargo, make a round war near all cities, inside which corrupt politicians and officials can kill themselves with guns instead of making criminal policies and wars that arm ordinary peoples.
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