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Dominique_71
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:

Cuba has an apartheid system of sorts, where things such as swimming pools only accessible to foreigners or high class communist apparatchiks.

The difference between the richest and the poorest in Cuba is much lower than in any capitalist country.

Pools in Cuba are for foreigners, not because their are forbidden, but because they are too expensive for a Cuban. On the other hand, this is where foreigners spend their dollars. Tourism is one of the first income for Cuba, and they will not make the same price for a rich foreigner than for a Cuban.

Cubans prefer the Sea and the rivers. Rivers are best in the summer, because they are colder than the beaches. On the beaches, it is no segregation at all. You can see ordinary Cuban peoples and foreigners. But all the Cuban you will see at the tourist beaches want only one thing: sell something to the foreigners. If they want to take a bath or have a good time, they have other beaches where the distractions are free, and the drinks, foods and rooms have much lower prices. :lol:

For the record, under Batista, the Cubans was forbidden on the beaches, because they all was private properties. One of the first measure of the new government was to made them public. And for one tourist beach, which also is public, it is dozens of other beaches, even if not all have facilities.

Quote:
The dual currency system is also pretty weird. I was dining at a nice restaurant, and you pay with the convertible peso, which the owner of the restaurant then gives entirely to the government, and then the government pays them back with the worthless cuban peso.

Not true. It is 2 kinds of restaurants, the ones owned by the State where the CUC go to the state, and the private ones. In the private ones, the owner pay a monthly tax, which is very low. In the touristic parts of the Island, to have a private restaurant is a very good way to make a lot of money for a Cuban. Take a mojito, it will cost 3 CUC to a tourist. It is the price of a good quality bottle of rum on the normal market. And the menthol is coming from the garden.

This 2 currency system was made so that people do not feel too much the effects of the economic crisis of the Special Period. And it worked. One goal of the current economical reforms is to return to a one currency system. But it will take time because they don't want to left peoples behind.

Quote:
The underground economy is very rampant too, because many Cubans can't get a normal job. I was driven around by an illegal taxi driver. The police was everywhere and he looked afraid and always looking over his shoulders.

All Cuban that want a job get it. Before the economical crisis, Cuba was a huge middle class. With the grounding of the USSR, In one year, their economy totally collapsed. That imply it was no good job anymore and the main concern for all Cubans was food. As you can see if you take the time to look at the movie I posted. It is also plenty of other sources about the Cuban Special period.

Under that period, a huge black market was developed. Now, it is better, but not as good than before. That imply the black market is still existing, and your driver is making more money by driving one tourist a day than with another job. And all he risk with the police is a fine, sometime a black market fine because even the cops are not paid much.

You will find such a black market in any country after a collapse of the economy. One goal of the current economical reform is to transform this black market into a legal market, but it will take time because this is a huge problem that cannot be easily solved .when most of your export is cut by a blockade, and most of your import are very expensive due to the blockade.

Another issue with this black market is corrupt high officials. Many of them was already put in jail, and more will follow. But for the "normal" Cuban, the goal is to transform the black market into a legal market. It go slower than they was initially thinking, but it follow its way, and nobody will be left behind.

At the beginning of the special period, the State increased its social expends, and at the same time begun to invest to diversify the Cuban economy. All that without the help of the IMF. http://books.google.ch/books/about/Cuba_in_the_21st_Century.html?id=M3y9OwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y
It begin to go better, but it is still a lot to do.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UNICEF Official: US Blockade on Cuba is a Direct Assault on Children

Quote:
HAVANA, Cuba, August 24 2012.- The U.S. blockade on Cuba is a direct assault on children, and harms the nation as well, said José Juan Ortiz Brú, the island's representative in the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) in the eastern city of Holguin.

When analizing the consequences of U.S. actions against Cuba, Ortiz Bru described them as cruel because they prevent Cubans to fully develop, especially children, since they are the most vulnerable segment of the population to hostile acts like the blockade.

In statements to ACN, Ortiz Bru, who will complete his term in Cuba this month, said a fact that has a negative impact on Cuban children is that the government needs to allocate lots of resources to the countries defense that could otherwise be used for development in general.

Programs implemented through United Nations are also affected by the U.S. blockade since Cuba is not allowed to buy in the United States a number of products that are absolutely essential to preserve life, reiterated Ortiz, after concluding a working visit to the city of Holguin.

In that case, he used as an example f the Cuban government's inability to acquire certain types of heart valves and infant anesthesia, among other means and resources.

...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of major success story in the diversification of the Cuban economy:

Cuban Vaccine for Advanced Lung Cancer Extended to Primary Health Care

Quote:
CUBA, December 16th, 2010.- The first Cuban therapeutic vaccine to treat advanced lung cancer, the only one registered in the world for this type of malignant tumor, has been extended primary health care in the country.

With the name CIMAVAX EGF, the product, developed by Havana’s Center for Molecular Immunology, is of proven effectiveness and increases the survival of patients with this disease, according to information provided to ACN by Pedro Pablo Guerra, of the National Coordination Center for Clinical Trials.

The researcher announced that the immunogen is being extended by way of a stage four clinical trial protocol, which includes people with advanced lung cancer in stages three and four who had no response to specific oncological treatment and are receiving palliative care in their health areas.

This clinical trial, which began in June 2009 in Bayamo, eastern Granma province, is being extended throughout the country in the polyclinics, and specifically measures safety and effectiveness by way of the study of adverse effects and variables, such as survival, quality of life and nutritional state.

This is the first time that a clinical trial is carried out in Primary Health Care and
there are currently about a hundred patients in the trial, who will receive the drug as their health permits, the specialist underlined.

He pointed out that this is part of the objectives of the Ministry of Public Health in
bringing products to primary care, adding that for 2011, the institution has among its projects the inclusion of another group of patients.

He stressed that currently there is a phase three clinical trial of the vaccine, which is carried out in hospitals and should include some 500 patients, a study that will give the definitive registration of the product, recognized in various countries.

The National Coordination Center for Clinical Trials, with nearly 20 years of experience, is currently working on over 60 clinical trials for indications in breast, lung and prostate cancers; it also has projects related to AIDS, in conjunction with Havana’s Center for Molecular Immunology.

The streptokinase study for hemorrhoids was recently concluded, along with Havana’s Center for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, and it’s also carrying out laboratory research works on agriculture, among others.

The performance of more clinical trials according to international standards is among the challenges of the institution.

These scientific results were presented at the 4th Congress of Pharmacology, which ends on Friday in this capital, attended by over 400 delegates from 35 countries. (Cubaminrex - ACN)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I added the links in the 2 precedent posts. It is a lot more on that website.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:

Pools in Cuba are for foreigners, not because their are forbidden, but because they are too expensive for a Cuban. On the other hand, this is where foreigners spend their dollars. Tourism is one of the first income for Cuba, and they will not make the same price for a rich foreigner than for a Cuban.


The only reason pools are expensive for locals is because of the refusal of the Cuban government to open markets. Since the Cuban peso is worthless, it makes every local poor.

I admit Raul Castro is slowly working on making things better, but changes needed to be made a long time ago.

Quote:

Cubans prefer the Sea and the rivers. Rivers are best in the summer, because they are colder than the beaches. On the beaches, it is no segregation at all. You can see ordinary Cuban peoples and foreigners. But all the Cuban you will see at the tourist beaches want only one thing: sell something to the foreigners. If they want to take a bath or have a good time, they have other beaches where the distractions are free, and the drinks, foods and rooms have much lower prices. :lol:


All the beaches around Havana are filthy. I'm sorry but I'd rather pay a price for a clean beach than free one that's filthy. Not only are they filthy, there's strange individuals, whom I'd guess to be junkies, hanging around, especially at night.

I live in Australia so, maybe my standards of a beach are too high, but Florida and many parts of Mediterranean have nice beaches. The only pretty beaches in Cuba I'm aware of are the ones where ordinary Cubans weren't allowed.

Quote:

Not true. It is 2 kinds of restaurants, the ones owned by the State where the CUC go to the state, and the private ones. In the private ones, the owner pay a monthly tax, which is very low. In the touristic parts of the Island, to have a private restaurant is a very good way to make a lot of money for a Cuban. Take a mojito, it will cost 3 CUC to a tourist. It is the price of a good quality bottle of rum on the normal market. And the menthol is coming from the garden.


Hello, it's 2013. How long has Cuba had time to make the necessary changes? If it wasn't for stubborn insistence on communism & egalitarianism, it would have happened long time ago. The reason Cuba is poor is entirely the fault of the ideology, and to a lesser degree the USA embargo.

Quote:

This 2 currency system was made so that people do not feel too much the effects of the economic crisis of the Special Period. And it worked. One goal of the current economical reforms is to return to a one currency system. But it will take time because they don't want to left peoples behind.


Indeed, but it didn't work, because it didn't help to IMPROVE the lives of ordinary people. The 2 currency system was created because the Cuban government lacked hard currency.

Quote:

All Cuban that want a job get it. Before the economical crisis, Cuba was a huge middle class. With the grounding of the USSR, In one year, their economy totally collapsed. That imply it was no good job anymore and the main concern for all Cubans was food. As you can see if you take the time to look at the movie I posted. It is also plenty of other sources about the Cuban Special period.


Sure, they can get a job, but is it worth it when the currency you get paid in is worthless? That's what I meant when i said Cubans can't get a "decent job".

It's only natural for Cubans to want more when they see the "rich" foreigners, hence the black market.

You might not like the USA, but the reason Cubans are poor is entirely the fault of the Cuban government.

Is it still illegal for Cubans to use the convertible peso?
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Last edited by petrjanda on Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
Not only are they filthy, there's strange individuals, whom I'd guess to be junkies, hanging around, especially at night.

My guess would be that those are wild, free-ranging humans. They still exist in more warmer climates. Not in the zoo you call Europe tho.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petrjanda wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:

Pools in Cuba are for foreigners, not because their are forbidden, but because they are too expensive for a Cuban. On the other hand, this is where foreigners spend their dollars. Tourism is one of the first income for Cuba, and they will not make the same price for a rich foreigner than for a Cuban.


The only reason pools are expensive for locals is because of the refusal of the Cuban government to open markets. Since the Cuban peso is worthless, it makes every local poor.

Apparently, you know nothing about the Cuban political system. It is very different from the rest of the world, including the one in the ex USRR. Cuba accepted by referendum to put Marxism alongside José Marti ideas, in its constitution. This was after a very aggressive speak of G.W.Bush against Cuba, the Cuban people, not the government or the PCC, made this referendum, and accepted it by more than 98%. So, communism in Cuba is the choice of its people. Maybe it will change in the future, but it will never change as long the US is following its current policy against the island.

petrjanda wrote:

All the beaches around Havana are filthy. I'm sorry but I'd rather pay a price for a clean beach than free one that's filthy. Not only are they filthy, there's strange individuals, whom I'd guess to be junkies, hanging around, especially at night.

I live in Australia so, maybe my standards of a beach are too high, but Florida and many parts of Mediterranean have nice beaches. The only pretty beaches in Cuba I'm aware of are the ones where ordinary Cubans weren't allowed.


I know the museums in Havana. But near Trinidad, the beaches are very clean, even the ones for the Cubans. And it is no beach where Cubans are not allowed, even the ones at 5 stars hostel.

petrjanda wrote:

Hello, it's 2013. How long has Cuba had time to make the necessary changes? If it wasn't for stubborn insistence on communism & egalitarianism, it would have happened long time ago. The reason Cuba is poor is entirely the fault of the ideology, and to a lesser degree the USA embargo.

All Cubans I know, even the ones which are very critical against their system, want to change it from the inside, because they know the current system is their only guaranty they can have against the current and long standing US obsession to annex Cuba, And no one single Cuban I know will allow that to append.

You want changes in Cuba, Very well, tell Washington to end its blockade and its subvention to a forced regime change, and let the Cuban people decide.

Quote:

Quote:

This 2 currency system was made so for peoples do not feel too much the effects of the economic crisis of the Special Period. And it worked. One goal of the current economical reforms is to return to a one currency system. But it will take time because they don't want to left peoples behind.


Indeed, but it didn't work, because it didn't help to IMPROVE the lives of ordinary people. The 2 currency system was created because the Cuban government lacked hard currency.

The economy was almost dead. Cuba made another choice than austerity, and it worked. Now the annual grow of its economy is superior of that of any occidental country.
Quote:

Sure, they can get a job, but is it worth it when the currency you get paid in is worthless? That's what I meant when i said Cubans can't get a "decent job".

The CUC is necessary in Cuba only to buy foreign goods like a television or a computer. For all the basic needs, Cubans use the national peso, and the prices are very very low. And he can get help for many things. As example, he want a fridge for the kitchen, the State will pay the fridge. He will even replace on old working one against a new one, because the new one will be using much less electricity.

Quote:

It's only natural for Cubans to want more when they see the "rich" foreigners, hence the black market.

Not because of that. They want more money because they want cars and they want to travel. And the black market was a necessity due to the economical collapse that followed the simultaneous grounding of the USSR and worsening of the US blockade.

This economical collapse was at least 2 times worst than the one in Greece, and the practical problems was much harder: no electricity, no transportation, no work, even the food was very scare. The international community, with the IMF and the European Central Bank, is helping Greece. They are in debit for at least 2 or 3 generations, which mean austerity for 2 or 3 generations. With Cuba, the US did increased its blockade. So, if Cuba is going better now, this is only Cuba's fault. :D

Quote:

Is it still illegal for Cubans to use the convertible peso?

For what I know, it was never illegal. A Cuban get paid in national pesos, which doesn't mean it is illegal for him to use the CUCs.

The CUC was intended only as exchange money, not for internal use. It is also used for the tourism. Which imply from day one, the Cubans working with tourists get access to CUC. And it was never a problem to change them or use them. The problem is to get access to the CUC.

Also, most tourists are going in the same areas. In remote areas, it is still only the national peso, but the life is quite different in remote areas. You spend nothing in remote areas because even the food is free, the housing is free, and it is almost no transportation costs. As example, it is schools in Cuba for one child, it is not to the children to go to the school, but to the school to go to the children. The State even install free solar panels in remote areas because it cost less than to install a power line.

Of course, when the child will grow up and go to university or technical school, he will move, and the State will offer him all that is needed from housing, food, etc., and he will even be paid.

If you go in Thailand, or in another poor country, this is the same problem. For a lot of stuffs, a tourist will not pay the same price than a local. The only differences are they are capitalists, use only one currency, and often they don't have access to school and to medical care, housing is expensive, and their only perspective is to work 15 hours a day to survive.

In Cuba, it is much more easier. One more thing will change with the current economical reform. Before, it was possible to do nothing in Cuba and still get every thing from the State. This will change, but that doesn't mean peoples will be left behind.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another issue that was pointed is the human right situation in Cuba, which is how the US and the EU justify their hostile politic against the island.

By comparing data from different countries in Latin and North America and in Europa,

Quote:
the Caribbean island is far from being the bad boy of the continent
...
the western media has misled the public when it presents Cuba as the main violator of human rights in the Americas.The United States, for its part, cannot in any way justify the imposition of economic sanctions based on the human rights situation on the island and should eliminate them.Indeed, not only does the US have no moral authority to speak on this subject in view of its own situation, but in addition most countries on the continent have situations worse than that of Cuba.
...
it is difficult for the European Union to pretend that its 1996 Common Position, still in effect, is justified by the human rights situation in Cuba. In reality, the principle nations of the Old World also commit serious human rights violations, often times worse than those committed in Cuba. As such, the moral authority of Brussels becomes questionable in several respects.

http://www.zcommunications.org/cuba-and-the-rhetoric-of-human-rights-1-of-2-by-salim-lamrani
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cuba-and-the-rhetoric-of-_bhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cuba-and-the-rhetoric-of-_b_706177.html_706177.html
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
I think you lot are being extremely over defensive with Dominique

No, someone THAT detached from simple truth and logic need a figurative slap along side the head.

The US Cuba relationship has not been perfect (going back pre 1960s), but Dominique's version of history is nothing more than revisionist comic book history, and his defense of a totalitarian state that throws citizens in prison for thinking wrong speaks volumes.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
I think you lot are being extremely over defensive with Dominique

No, someone THAT detached from simple truth and logic need a figurative slap along side the head.

The US Cuba relationship has not been perfect (going back pre 1960s), but Dominique's version of history is nothing more than revisionist comic book history, and his defense of a totalitarian state that throws citizens in prison for thinking wrong speaks volumes.

What I said are only factual evidences. Just read the links, and do your home work.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
According to Amnesty International (AI), "Civil and political rights continued to be severely restricted by the authorities" in Cuba.AI refers to "55 prisoners of conscience [] detained solely for the peaceful exercise of their right to freedom of expression."5 In a statement on March 18, 2008, AI nevertheless acknowledged that these people were condemned "for having received funds or materials from the U.S. government to carry out activities that the authorities consider subversive and damaging to Cuba", which constitutes a criminal offense in Cuba and as well as in every other country in the world.6

The organization also notes that "many [opponents] reported that they were beaten during arrest." Severe restrictions still weigh on freedom of expression, according to AI, since "all mass media and the internet remained under state control."Moreover, the websites of the opposition are blocked in Cuba and can only be viewed from outside the country.Several dissidents were arrested and later released.AI also condemns acts of intimidation against the opposition.Furthermore, "restrictions on freedom of movement prevented journalists and human rights and political activists from carrying out legitimate and peaceful activities."Thus, the opposition figure Yoani Sanchez has not received permission to leave the country to receive an award in the United States.7

Nevertheless, AI point out that in May 2009 Cuba "was re-elected to the [UN] Human Rights Council for another three-year term", thus illustrating that most of the international community does not shares the view of Brussels and Washington regarding the human rights situation in Cuba.8

Finally, AI recognizes that U.S. economic sanctions against Cuba "continued to have a detrimental impact on the economic and social rights of Cubans. US legislation restricting exports of US manufactured or patented supplies and equipment to Cuba continued to hinder access to medicine and medical technologies."U.S. law restricting exports to the island of products and materials manufactured or patented in the United States continues to hinder access to medicines and medical equipment."AI adds that United Nations agencies present in Cuba also are "also effected by the embargo."9

Thus, as illustrated in the AI report, Cuba is not irreproachable in terms of respect for human rights.


Quote:
According to AI, 198 people remain illegally detained at the naval base at Guantanamo, without charges, for the last seven years.At least five inmates committed suicide at the Guantanamo prison.Moreover, several prisoners were tried by military tribunals that did not provide all the guarantees of a fair trial.10

Furthermore, "the US military continued to hold hundreds of detainees, including a number of children, without access to lawyers or the courts at the Bagram air base in Afghanistan."11

AI also denounced the "program of secret CIA detention" and disclosed the "acts of torture and other forms of mistreatment inflicted on detainees."AI cites two examples: "The techniques included forced nudity, prolonged sleep deprivation, and waterboarding (simulated drowning).[] Abu Zubaydah [] had been waterboarded more than 80 times in August 2002, and Khaled Sheikh Mohammed some 183 times in March 2003."The authors of these acts will not be legally prosecuted, according to statements by Barack Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder.12

AI notes that "impunity and the absence of legal remedies persisted for human rights violations perpetrated in the context of what the Bush administration called the 'war on terror'."The organization added that "the new administration moved to block publication of a number of photographs depicting abuse of detainees in U.S. custody in Afghanistan and Iraq."13

AI also denounced alleged acts of "torture and other mistreatment" committed by security forces in United States territory against U.S. citizens."At least 47 people died after being struck by police Tasers, bringing to more than 390 the number of such deaths since 2001." AI adds that "among them were three unarmed teenagers involved in minor incidents and an apparently healthy man who was shocked for 49 continuous seconds by police in Fort Worth, Texas, in May 2009." 14

The international organization points a finger at the conditions of detention in the United States.According to AI, "Thousands of prisoners were held in long-term isolation in US super-maximum security prisons, where conditions in many cases fell short of international standards for humane treatment."Thus, "scores of prisoners, [] many of them mentally ill, had spent 10 or more years confined to solitary cells for 23 hours a day, with inadequate treatment or review of their status." These prisoners "had no work, educational or recreational programs and little contact with the outside world."15

According to AI, "tens of thousands of migrants, including asylum seekers, were routinely detained, in violation of international standards.Many were held in harsh conditions and had inadequate access to health care, exercise and legal assistance." 16

Moreover, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions denounced several cases of extrajudicial executions committed by security forces against migrants.The number of deaths in custody is more than "the 74 officially recorded since 2003," reported AI. 17

AI points to discrimination in terms of access to health against women belonging to minorities.Thus, "the number of preventable deaths from pregnancy-related complications remained high, costing the lives of hundreds of women during the year. There were inequalities in access to maternal health care based on income, race, ethnicity or national origin, with African American women nearly four times more likely to die of pregnancy-related causes than white women." AI adds that 52 million people under age 65 are uninsured, "a rise over the previous year."18

According to AI, a conscientious objector was sentenced to one year in prison for refusing to serve in Afghanistan.The organization also denounced the unjust trials against Leonard Peltier, imprisoned for 32 years, "despite concerns about the fairness of his 1977 conviction."AI also noted that the U.S. Supreme Court refused to consider the appeal filed by five Cuban political prisoners - Gerardo Hernandez, Ramon Labanino, Antonio Guerrero, Fernando González and René González - sentenced to long prison terms while "in May 2005, the UN Working Group on Arbitrary Detention had stated that their detention was arbitrary because of the failure to guarantee them a fair trial."19

Finally, the death penalty still applies in the United States. As such, 52 people were executed in 2009.20

http://www.zcommunications.org/cuba-and-the-rhetoric-of-human-rights-1-of-2-by-salim-lamrani
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique, you keep bringing up Gitmo and the US. I thought the discussion was about the tropical paradise of Cuba. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as one has free healthcare, basic human rights such as freedom to speak out against government policies, or the freedom to have access to all information, or the freedom to travel need not apply. Because that is what has existed in Cuba for many years.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Dominique, you keep bringing up Gitmo and the US. I thought the discussion was about the tropical paradise of Cuba. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as one has free healthcare, basic human rights such as freedom to speak out against government policies, or the freedom to have access to all information, or the freedom to travel need not apply. Because that is what has existed in Cuba for many years.


La palabra (discussion) is the first national sport in Cuba. It begin into the families, it follow at school where the children are encouraged to ask any questions they can have, including politic ones, and it is included into their political system.

The basis of the Cuban political system is the comity of neighborhoods and workers. Any Cubans can participates, give his word and make propositions. It is also these comities that choose the candidates for the elections and sacks elected representatives.

It is also the mass organizations. Their analysis and stances are binding upon the State. As example, a syndicate, or the organization for the safety at work, which find a problem, can decide a work stoppage. This is not a strike, but the company or the state is obliged to remedy this problem. And they have such organizations for every thing, even the taxidermists have their mass organization.

For the PCC, I already said what it was. He cannot candidates for the elections, and not even take party of these elections. All he can do is to provoke and encourage debates on ideas. A lot of elected Cubans are not even member of the PCC.

Also, the "opponents" in Cuba are paid by the US to overthrow the government selected and elected by the Cubans. It is numerous evidences of that, including talks and memorandums from several presidents of the US. In any country of the world, such "opponents" will be put in jail. This is not what I call free speech, but imperialism and neocolonialism.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
Old School wrote:
Dominique, you keep bringing up Gitmo and the US. I thought the discussion was about the tropical paradise of Cuba. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as one has free healthcare, basic human rights such as freedom to speak out against government policies, or the freedom to have access to all information, or the freedom to travel need not apply. Because that is what has existed in Cuba for many years.


La palabra (discussion) is the first national sport in Cuba. It begin into the families, it follow at school where the children are encouraged to ask any questions they can have, including politic ones, and it is included into their political system.


HUMAN RIGHTS IN CUBA

Quote:
Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent. The government of Raúl Castro continues to enforce political conformity using short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. Although the Cuban government released dozens of political prisoners on the condition that they leave the country, the government continues to sentence dissidents in closed, summary trials. The government has also relied increasingly upon arbitrary arrests and short-term detentions to restrict the basic rights of its critics, including the right to assemble and move freely.


Take your blinders off and have a good read.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
I think you lot are being extremely over defensive with Dominique

No, someone THAT detached from simple truth and logic need a figurative slap along side the head.

The US Cuba relationship has not been perfect (going back pre 1960s), but Dominique's version of history is nothing more than revisionist comic book history, and his defense of a totalitarian state that throws citizens in prison for thinking wrong speaks volumes.
Oh yeah, it's sugar coated with an extra dose of sugar but he's only trying to defend his wife's heritage.

As someone who has been to the Caribbean I can guarantee to you that all of Cuba's problems are political. Most of the Caribbean are ex-British colonies with a few french, Spanish and Dutch ones and they are healthy, stable and although they are not rich by any stretch of the imagination their education and life expectancy is excellent. For instance Barbados’ HDI ranking (38) is ahead of countries such as Poland, Chile, Lithuania, the United Arab Emirates and Portugal.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know anything about Cuba except (1) Cubans would be much wealthier if they could freely trade with the US, and (2) Cuban (and American) political leaders oppose free trade with the US, probably because they are sociopaths.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You pretend to be from Switzerland, but we all know you're from Cuba, and we've known it all along, because you're always talking about how great things are in Cuba. Why don't you just go ahead and admit it. You'll find the honesty refreshing.


Ohh...I like conspiracy theoru. Well, some conclutions might give you a window of oportunity, but that is...like mcgrufff. I think you are him.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
I don't know anything about Cuba except (1) Cubans would be much wealthier if they could freely trade with the US, and (2) Cuban (and American) political leaders oppose free trade with the US, probably because they are sociopaths.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Human Right Watch is know to be biased in these reports on many issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch
Quote:
The George Soros Open Society Foundation is the primary donor of the Human Rights Watch, contributing $100 million of $128 million of contributions and grants received by the HRW in the 2011 financial year.[3] The $100 million contribution from the Open Society Foundation will be paid out over ten years in $10 million annual installments.
...
In 2010 The Times of London wrote that HRW has "all but eclipsed" Amnesty International. According to The Times, instead of being supported by a mass membership, as AI is, HRW depends on wealthy donors who like to see the organization's reports make headlines. For this reason, according, HRW tends to "concentrate too much on places that the media already cares about", especially in disproportionate coverage of Israel.
...
HRW has been criticized by national governments, other NGOs, its founder and former Chairman Robert L. Bernstein, and the media. It has been accused by critics[26] of being influenced by U.S. foreign policy,[27] in particular in relation to reporting on Latin America;[28][29][30][31][32]


HWR say:
Quote:
Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent.

As I already explained it, they are paid by a foreign government that have as only obsession to overthrow its legally selected and elected government. The Cubans just don't want to have a fifth column into their country. :lol:

Take also a look at the Amnesty International reports. You have all the references in Salim Lamrani's articles. They are much more accurate and show without any doubt than the US and the EU have no lesson to give to anyone in matter of human rights.

No one single country was making war against the US from WWII, but the US was making war against many other countries in the same time. The fact is the US and a few European countries are in perpetual war against the rest of the world. Hitler was not an exception, he only made to white Europeans peoples what other occidental countries was doing to the rest of the world from centuries, and what some of them are still doing today. The only concentration camp in Cuba, where peoples are imprisoned without any judgment and tortured is an illegal US property. It is on Cuban soil, and Cuba doesn't want it, so it is illegal. And it is a concentration camp like the other "secret prisons" the US have all over the world in its military basis. The last Empire...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71 wrote:
HWR say:
Quote:
Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent.

As I already explained it, they are paid by a foreign government that have as only obsession to overthrow its legally selected and elected government. The Cubans just don't want to have a fifth column into their country. :lol:


Wow.

Nice to know that you speak for all Cubans.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominique_71, I have been sticking up for you but logically a country that has had problems with human rights in the past and which has a one party political system HAS to put down political dissent in some way. Whichever way they do it is it against basic human rights to disallow the representation of the people in a government.

Cuba's one saving grace is the excellent healthcare system that could teach the US' system a few things. Plus it comes across as the US throwing its toys out of the pram when it comes to the lack of trade between the two countries.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Cuba's one saving grace is the excellent healthcare system that could teach the US' system a few things.


That's pure propaganda. Their healthcare system is a total nightmare.

Viddie well brother, viddie well
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't we ask the Cubans on this forum what life is like there?

Oh, there aren't any, due to lack of intellectual freedom?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Cuba's one saving grace is the excellent healthcare system that could teach the US' system a few things.


That's pure propaganda. Their healthcare system is a total nightmare.

Viddie well brother, viddie well
It should be implemented in the UK.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
You pretend to be from Switzerland, but we all know you're from Cuba, and we've known it all along, because you're always talking about how great things are in Cuba. Why don't you just go ahead and admit it. You'll find the honesty refreshing.


Ohh...I like conspiracy theoru. Well, some conclutions might give you a window of oportunity, but that is...like mcgrufff. I think you are him.

I just wanted to see if he'd admit to it. He didn't, but as a reward we found out that he's had four wives. :lol:
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