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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Hypothetical situation Reply with quote

I will use this for example but you could use any equipment that someone is paid to use. This is more about the underlying business, legality and ethics underneath the situation itself.

Situation: A fairly well known golfer signed a big contract with (obviously) a big sports manufacturer and ever since has hardly been able to hit a ball.

Question: What would be the legal, business and ethical ramifications of going back to the previous company, getting his old clubs and just re-branding them with the new company's name and logo?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old brand should sue and win damages.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
The old brand should sue and win damages.
No, nothing like it has been done, it is all hypothetical
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Hypothetical situation Reply with quote

Isn't hardly hitting a ball the point of golf?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rebranding them would be fraud.

The companies might be ok with it. But he would tell his fans and the people following golf that he uses company's A clubs, while in reality it would be B's.

He would defraud everybody buying clubs because of this.

Ethically it would be just wrong.

The right things would be
either get used to the new set. Which basically means more training than he has done so far
or cancel the contract and go back.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
bogamol wrote:
The old brand should sue and win damages.
No, nothing like it has been done, it is all hypothetical


Understood. The hypothetical company who created the old clubs that were rebranded should sue and they should win damages.

I think I am saying the same thing as energyman. We are coming from differing POV. He is coming from the POV of the golfer and what he should do. I am coming from the POV of the wronged party.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about Golf, but I think it has been common to "re-brand" rackets in professional tennis. Doesn't bother me - I buy the rackets that play well, regardless of who uses them.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
bogamol wrote:
The old brand should sue and win damages.
No, nothing like it has been done, it is all hypothetical


Understood. The hypothetical company who created the old clubs that were rebranded should sue and they should win damages.

I think I am saying the same thing as energyman. We are coming from differing POV. He is coming from the POV of the golfer and what he should do. I am coming from the POV of the wronged party.
What If they had permission? What if the old company agreed to do it for the good of the player? (Or some money)
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
I don't know about Golf, but I think it has been common to "re-brand" rackets in professional tennis.
I never knew that! Thankyou for telling me something new :D
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McIlroy hasn't yet proven that he is good enough to justify the criticism. He's good. He's likely to be real good. But plenty of golfers have done well and then poorly. A top pro golfer should be able to play better than McIlroy has since the equipment change, regardless of clubs. If he consistently placed in the top 10 since the change, then maybe the equipment would be partly to blame.

As for his options, it would depend on the contract. I would equally wonder about Nike's side of the contract. They certainly don't want to pay a lot of money to mediocre talent.

If he were to go back to his old equipment with success, then he's really not that good a golfer. Equipment is customized to the pro. A good example is the new Callaway XHot 3Deep, created for Mickelson (and hopefully lots of consumers who like him). I've never been able to hit a driver, so I'm thinking of trying one.

All that said, I think McIlroy is getting there. He actually played pretty well this weekend. He made it into the top 50 in FedEx points, and I'd look for him to do well in the playoffs, maybe even win one. Top 125, top 100, top 70, and then top 30 for the 4 events. If he's actually fixing his swing problem, then I'd look for the end of this season to be a turning point for next season.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
McIlroy hasn't yet proven that he is good enough to justify the criticism. He's good. He's likely to be real good. But plenty of golfers have done well and then poorly. A top pro golfer should be able to play better than McIlroy has since the equipment change, regardless of clubs. If he consistently placed in the top 10 since the change, then maybe the equipment would be partly to blame.

As for his options, it would depend on the contract. I would equally wonder about Nike's side of the contract. They certainly don't want to pay a lot of money to mediocre talent.

If he were to go back to his old equipment with success, then he's really not that good a golfer. Equipment is customized to the pro. A good example is the new Callaway XHot 3Deep, created for Mickelson (and hopefully lots of consumers who like him). I've never been able to hit a driver, so I'm thinking of trying one.

All that said, I think McIlroy is getting there. He actually played pretty well this weekend. He made it into the top 50 in FedEx points, and I'd look for him to do well in the playoffs, maybe even win one. Top 125, top 100, top 70, and then top 30 for the 4 events. If he's actually fixing his swing problem, then I'd look for the end of this season to be a turning point for next season.
So do you think it's going to take a full season to warm to his new equipment? He won 2 majors and was the #1 in the European and world points ranking and the world #1 with his old clubs. You don't get to be #1 by just having one good season.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
A top pro golfer should be able to play better than McIlroy has since the equipment change, regardless of clubs.

Ayrton Senna got killed when he switched to Williams. Just sayin'
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
pjp wrote:
A top pro golfer should be able to play better than McIlroy has since the equipment change, regardless of clubs.

Ayrton Senna got killed when he switched to Williams. Just sayin'
but that was the third race of the season and Senna had been on pole in all of his races with Williams
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Prenj wrote:
pjp wrote:
A top pro golfer should be able to play better than McIlroy has since the equipment change, regardless of clubs.

Ayrton Senna got killed when he switched to Williams. Just sayin'
but that was the third race of the season and Senna had been on pole in all of his races with Williams

Yes because he was good, but he was feeling frustrated and uncomfortable with the car. Considering that he was always pushing his car and was driving on instinct and in flow, the stress may have been a factor.

Quote:
Senna commented as follows on the FW16 during Estoril testing at the start of 1994: "I have a very negative feeling about driving the car and driving it on the limit and so on. Therefore I didn't have a single run or a single lap that I felt comfortable or reasonably confident. I am uncomfortable in the car, it all feels wrong. We changed the seat and the wheel, but even so I was already asking for more room. Going back to when we raced at Estoril last September (on testing the passive Williams at the same track 4 months later), it feels much more difficult. Some of that is down to the lack of electronic change. Also, the car has its own characteristics which I'm not fully confident in yet. It makes you a lot more tense and that stresses you."[1]

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
bogamol wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
bogamol wrote:
The old brand should sue and win damages.
No, nothing like it has been done, it is all hypothetical


Understood. The hypothetical company who created the old clubs that were rebranded should sue and they should win damages.

I think I am saying the same thing as energyman. We are coming from differing POV. He is coming from the POV of the golfer and what he should do. I am coming from the POV of the wronged party.
What If they had permission? What if the old company agreed to do it for the good of the player? (Or some money)


still unethical.

Lying to the masses. People might buy the wrong set because of his endorsement.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No fucks given day.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
So do you think it's going to take a full season to warm to his new equipment? He won 2 majors and was the #1 in the European and world points ranking and the world #1 with his old clubs. You don't get to be #1 by just having one good season.
He's commented on reverting to old bad habits. Those are difficult to break, especially in competition. I think the pressure got to him (being #1 and the attention), he changed clubs, and reverted to his bad habits at the same time. I think that affected his confidence and he is trying to fix all of that at the same time. I don't believe the clubs have anything to do with it at this point.

All of the manufacturers will customize clubs for their top endorsements. If he needed something changed, they'd change it. If he were having problems with just the woods, irons, or wedges, then I might think it was an equipment problem. They use whatever shafts they like. And if you look at Mickelson, he's Callaway's top endorsement, and some of his clubs are not Callaway.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
bogamol wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
bogamol wrote:
The old brand should sue and win damages.
No, nothing like it has been done, it is all hypothetical


Understood. The hypothetical company who created the old clubs that were rebranded should sue and they should win damages.

I think I am saying the same thing as energyman. We are coming from differing POV. He is coming from the POV of the golfer and what he should do. I am coming from the POV of the wronged party.
What If they had permission? What if the old company agreed to do it for the good of the player? (Or some money)


still unethical.

Lying to the masses. People might buy the wrong set because of his endorsement.
Pretty much the answer I was expecting. I feel the same
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
So do you think it's going to take a full season to warm to his new equipment? He won 2 majors and was the #1 in the European and world points ranking and the world #1 with his old clubs. You don't get to be #1 by just having one good season.
He's commented on reverting to old bad habits. Those are difficult to break, especially in competition. I think the pressure got to him (being #1 and the attention), he changed clubs, and reverted to his bad habits at the same time. I think that affected his confidence and he is trying to fix all of that at the same time. I don't believe the clubs have anything to do with it at this point.

All of the manufacturers will customize clubs for their top endorsements. If he needed something changed, they'd change it. If he were having problems with just the woods, irons, or wedges, then I might think it was an equipment problem. They use whatever shafts they like. And if you look at Mickelson, he's Callaway's top endorsement, and some of his clubs are not Callaway.
Lets be honest though. Mickleson is a choker. He should have won so much more but he always comes in 3rd or 4th after leading for 2 or 3 days. The only person that is worse than him at that is Lee Westwood
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:29 am    Post subject: Re: Hypothetical situation Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
I will use this for example but you could use any equipment that someone is paid to use. This is more about the underlying business, legality and ethics underneath the situation itself.

Situation: A fairly well known golfer signed a big contract with (obviously) a big sports manufacturer and ever since has hardly been able to hit a ball.

Question: What would be the legal, business and ethical ramifications of going back to the previous company, getting his old clubs and just re-branding them with the new company's name and logo?

You mean, like this?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Lets be honest though. Mickleson is a choker. He should have won so much more but he always comes in 3rd or 4th after leading for 2 or 3 days. The only person that is worse than him at that is Lee Westwood
I disagree with your assessment:
Quote:
He has won 42 events on the PGA Tour, including five major championships: three Masters titles (2004, 2006, 2010), a PGA Championship (2005), and an Open Championship (2013).

Mickelson is one of 15 golfers in the history of the sport to win at least three of the four professional majors.[1] The only major that has eluded him is the U.S. Open, which would put him in an elite group of golfing "Career Grand Slam" winners that includes Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Gene Sarazen, and Tiger Woods. Mickelson has finished runner-up in the U.S. Open a record six times.[2]

Mickelson has spent over 700 weeks in the top-10 of the Official World Golf Ranking,[3] has reached a career-high world ranking of 2nd several times and has a lifetime exemption on the PGA Tour.
He's ranked 9th all time and could reasonably make it to #6, though that wouldn't be easy. 10 more wins, most of those needing to come in the next 4 years or so. But #8 is almost certain. And if he's able to get the US Open, he's in an extremely elite group. Nowhere near Westwood.

Compare to Greg Norman who is ranked 33rd and held first place longer than any other player, second only to Tiger (by a significant margin). Greg only won 2 majors. I mention him specifically because of his #1 status, wins in the majors, but also because they both play aggressively. Makes for good golf, but also puts them at greater risk.

Quote:
Tiger Woods holds the record for most weeks in the World Top 10, with 809. He is followed by Ernie Els (788 weeks) and Phil Mickelson (731 weeks).

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's cut to the chase and save some typing for cokehabit.

Wow! The British are great golfers!

Although, McIlroy's not sure he's British. He's been considering playing for Ireland in the Olympics. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Let's cut to the chase and save some typing for cokehabit.

Wow! The British are great golfers!
LOL

(McIlroy is an Irishman. I think you knew that, but not certain.)
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Let's cut to the chase and save some typing for cokehabit.

Wow! The British are great golfers!


And Sailors! :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
What If they had permission? What if the old company agreed to do it for the good of the player? (Or some money)


Generally speaking the original company would have had shareholders. The company has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders and therefore would be duty bound to defend their assets including their brand.

You did not specifically say that the company was public ally traded or had any shareholders other than the owner. If there is one owner then let him destroy himself. I don't care.
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