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What is your core worldview?
Atheistic
54%
 54%  [ 17 ]
Theistic
12%
 12%  [ 4 ]
Polytheistic
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
Agnostic
29%
 29%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 31

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juniper
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:

If you call evidence a very strong position then, you are correct.


and what is this evidence?
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
Theist = Believer in the existence of a deity (deities)

Atheist = Believer in the non-existence of a deity (deities)

Agnostic = Intellectually honest.

Sorry GabrielYYZ, but I actually have a greater command of the language than you do.


thinking about this more, "a" really does mean not, as opposed to the opposite assertion. "atypical" does not mean unique (or non-existent); it means uncommon. "amoral" doesn't mean evil; it means not moral. asymmetric doesn't mean anti symmetric. it just means not symmetric.
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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gentooP4
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Atheism by definition makes no assertion of God's non-existence, merely that you do not believe in any Gods. That a number of atheists are gnostic doesn't mean that all atheists are by definition gnostic, that's an association fallacy Christians often make to try to discredit atheism as a whole.


Well said.

Atheists do not believe theists have met their burden of proof. [/end of]
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pjp
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong as I've always known it to be defined.

dictionary.com wrote:
a·the·ist
[ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

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GabrielYYZ
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Wrong as I've always known it to be defined.

dictionary.com wrote:
a·the·ist
[ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Oxford Dictionary wrote:
atheist
Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods


Now, i'll concede something, language evolves and dictionaries adopt usage and, since the majority of people are religious, the term "atheist" has been used as someone who "believes the opposite of a theist" too much lately. I still think it's wrong, since it misrepresents the position of people who don't believe that the burden of proof for the claim "god exists" has been met.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Wrong as I've always known it to be defined.

dictionary.com wrote:
a·the·ist
[ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


that definition is sloppily worded. it appears to me that both definitions are present there.

"denies" is more your definition. "disbelieves" is more ours.

I disbelieve bigfoot exists. I don't deny he/she/it exists.

I don't care either way. I use atheist to mean theists haven't supported their claim. I am just trying to add my two cents. However, I gave a list of words where the prefix "a" means to not instead of the opposite. Do you know of a word where the prefix "a" gives the word the opposite meaning?
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Well, every group has its nutjobs, and the Second Amendment crowd is no exception.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
pjp wrote:
Wrong as I've always known it to be defined.

dictionary.com wrote:
a·the·ist
[ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Oxford Dictionary wrote:
atheist
Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods


Now, i'll concede something, language evolves and dictionaries adopt usage and, since the majority of people are religious, the term "atheist" has been used as someone who "believes the opposite of a theist" too much lately. I still think it's wrong, since it misrepresents the position of people who don't believe that the burden of proof for the claim "god exists" has been met.
I don't see those definitions as meaningfully different. Nothing about burden of proof is even hinted at.
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GabrielYYZ
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
pjp wrote:
Wrong as I've always known it to be defined.

dictionary.com wrote:
a·the·ist
[ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.


Oxford Dictionary wrote:
atheist
Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪst/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods


Now, i'll concede something, language evolves and dictionaries adopt usage and, since the majority of people are religious, the term "atheist" has been used as someone who "believes the opposite of a theist" too much lately. I still think it's wrong, since it misrepresents the position of people who don't believe that the burden of proof for the claim "god exists" has been met.
I don't see those definitions as meaningfully different. Nothing about burden of proof is even hinted at.


Nothing i can do about that, then. If you don't know why it's necessary to fulfill the burden of proof to convince other people a belief is justified, then those definitions are useless and we are wasting our time.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's where agnostic comes in. There is a clear, distinct difference.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
That's where agnostic comes in. There is a clear, distinct difference.


but that's not what it is. agnostics seem to be making a rather strong claim. Not that the burden of proof hasn't been met, but that the answer is unknowable.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
agnostics seem to be making a rather strong claim. Not that the burden of proof hasn't been met, but that the answer is unknowable.
No, they aren't. In fact, many criticize agnostics for being wishy-washy (not comitting to belief or non-belief):

Oxford, as whatshisname seems to prefer it wrote:
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.


Seems as though you're reversing the definitions of atheist / agnostic.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
juniper wrote:
agnostics seem to be making a rather strong claim. Not that the burden of proof hasn't been met, but that the answer is unknowable.
No, they aren't. In fact, many criticize agnostics for being wishy-washy (not comitting to belief or non-belief):

Oxford, as whatshisname seems to prefer it wrote:
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.


Seems as though you're reversing the definitions of atheist / agnostic.


hmmm. aren't I in agreement with the oxford definition you posted? That's what I said.
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I have fries with the ass burgers please ok thanks.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the dictionary definition of agnostic, but I've always thought that there was an undertone in the colloquial usage that implied somewhat of a wimpish unwillingness to state an opinion.

- John
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I know the dictionary definition of agnostic, but I've always thought that there was an undertone in the colloquial usage that implied somewhat of a wimpish unwillingness to state an opinion.

Well then, if I state that the existence of pertinence in the contributions in OTW of the Gentoo Forums Admins just cannot be objectively demonstrated, please refrain from thinking that I get some wimpish unwillingness to state an op... :roll: to state a... statement about pjp's contributions.
...
Or yours! :P
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gentooP4
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I don't see those definitions as meaningfully different. Nothing about burden of proof is even hinted at.


The difference is in the word "denies". Disbelief is where the burden of proof steps in. Oxford=correct, dictionary.com=wrong.

But why argue over definitions? We can do that all day. It doesn't get the thiests any closer to proving their various gods exist. I expect you too are an Atheist to every god except the 1 you were born into.

Anyway, happy camping whatever you're into.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
hmmm. aren't I in agreement with the oxford definition you posted? That's what I said.
I went back to try to figure that out, but it wasn't that apparent.



John R. Graham wrote:
I know the dictionary definition of agnostic, but I've always thought that there was an undertone in the colloquial usage that implied somewhat of a wimpish unwillingness to state an opinion.

- John
I've interpreted the difference to be that of "knowing god does not exist" (atheist) and not believing in god, recognizing the possibility of "something", and having an open mind to the possibility.

To support that, oxford (atheist): "a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."



gentooP4 wrote:
The difference is in the word "denies". Disbelief is where the burden of proof steps in. Oxford=correct, dictionary.com=wrong.
You're not helping "your" case IMO.
oxford on disbelief wrote:
inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real

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