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Prenj
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

valerios wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Whatever, Macedonains were the shit. Alexander rocked. It took Genghis Khan to top that. Meanwhile greeks were making up stories about Achilles and building wooden horses and stuff.


Alexander loved Achilles a lot. He went and worshiped the grave of the hero.

And don't forget that Philip prepared all this ground for Alexander. Without him Alexander couldn't do anything.

Thats what I'm saying, Philip was macedonian as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
valerios wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Whatever, Macedonains were the shit. Alexander rocked. It took Genghis Khan to top that. Meanwhile greeks were making up stories about Achilles and building wooden horses and stuff.


Alexander loved Achilles a lot. He went and worshiped the grave of the hero.

And don't forget that Philip prepared all this ground for Alexander. Without him Alexander couldn't do anything.

Thats what I'm saying, Philip was macedonian as well.


Macedonian... And therefore Greek.

φίλος phílos, "friend" + ἵππος híppos, "horse"

If they were seperate ethnic group they'd have different language. Not Greek.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

valerios wrote:
Prenj wrote:
valerios wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Whatever, Macedonains were the shit. Alexander rocked. It took Genghis Khan to top that. Meanwhile greeks were making up stories about Achilles and building wooden horses and stuff.


Alexander loved Achilles a lot. He went and worshiped the grave of the hero.

And don't forget that Philip prepared all this ground for Alexander. Without him Alexander couldn't do anything.

Thats what I'm saying, Philip was macedonian as well.


Macedonian... And therefore Greek.

φίλος phílos, "friend" + ἵππος híppos, "horse"

If they were seperate ethnic group they'd have different language. Not Greek.

Nah during Alexanders era, greeks were conquered by macedonians. Why would he conquer himself if he was a greek. What you are saying is just more of greek nationalistic bullshit.
Besides, people currently living in those geographical area have more turkish DNA then ancient greek.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
valerios wrote:
Prenj wrote:
valerios wrote:
Prenj wrote:
Whatever, Macedonains were the shit. Alexander rocked. It took Genghis Khan to top that. Meanwhile greeks were making up stories about Achilles and building wooden horses and stuff.


Alexander loved Achilles a lot. He went and worshiped the grave of the hero.

And don't forget that Philip prepared all this ground for Alexander. Without him Alexander couldn't do anything.

Thats what I'm saying, Philip was macedonian as well.


Macedonian... And therefore Greek.

φίλος phílos, "friend" + ἵππος híppos, "horse"

If they were seperate ethnic group they'd have different language. Not Greek.

Nah during Alexanders era, greeks were conquered by macedonians. Why would he conquer himself if he was a greek. What you are saying is just more of greek nationalistic bullshit.
Besides, people currently living in those geographical area have more turkish DNA then ancient greek.


These are stereotypes. I'm not even nationalist. Nationalism=hate.

How can all these scientists from other countries support that he was Greek? They're nationalist Greeks too?

He did that because he wanted to UNITE the Greeks. An idiotic example but see: Genghis Khan UNITED Mongols. Qin the Chinese and so on...

Learn history:
http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/hell12.htm

Have you ever heard about civil war?

Aléxandros ho Mégas from the Greek ἀλέξω alexo "to defend, help" + ἀνήρ aner "man"

information: Saint Sisoes the Great weeped at Alexander's the Great tomb for Memento Mori.
orthodoxwiki.org/Sisoes_the_Great
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes he did, but you can't claim he was a greek.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Yes he did, but you can't claim he was a greek.


I can because in 356 Alexander was born, and Philip's race horse won in the Olympic Games.

And his mother was Molossian an ancient Greek tribe from Epirus.

ONLY freeborn Greek men were allowed to participate in Olympic Games that time.


Last edited by valerios on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe his horse was greek.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Maybe his horse was greek.


You're just jealous. You must have a reason for going against the reality. Maybe your "Macedonian" from Tito.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not jealous, I think you greeks suffer from same syndrome as the rest of balkan muppets, you gorge yourself blind on nationalistic mythology for some fucked up reason, instead of making some cell phones or whatever. Maybe it's the trauma from Ottoman period, who knows.
Here's some nice read for you:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Not jealous, I think you greeks suffer from same syndrome as the rest of balkan muppets, you gorge yourself blind on nationalistic mythology for some fucked up reason, instead of making some cell phones or whatever. Maybe it's the trauma from Ottoman period, who knows.
Here's some nice read for you:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


We have many similarities in halogroups with the "Turks", because many of the Turks are Greeks from Christian families who were converted to Islam by violence.

There are even Turkish movies who testify that.

You'll find many descendants of Greeks from Hellenistic era in East. There are many people in East who claim that and many who were again converted to Islam by violence and don't know it.

The same Turks who are "Islamists" go every year in the Chruch of Saint George.

In Turkey Bible is the best seller with 8 million sales.

Wake up.

pontosworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1387&Itemid=90

pouke.org/forum/topic/24896-crypto-christians-in-pontus-%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%82%D0%BE-%D1%85%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%88%D1%9B%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D1%83-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%83/

www.cafebabel.co.uk/athens/article/15000000-crypto-christians-in-turkey.html

patrides.com/oct05/enmalkid.htm

Code:
A huge scandal - but also the central focus of intense discussions - has befallen Turkey, on account of a book by Erdoğan Çinar and a group of Turkish researchers, titled "Scandal: The History of the Alevis".
www.oodegr.com/english/thriskies/Islam/Alevi_Skandal.jpg

In the description of the Alevis' history, he maintains that the Alevis of Turkey are in actual fact the lost Christians of Asia Minor - a truly vast historical problem, to which contemporary, official Turkey systematically avoids giving convincing answers.
 
According to the book's author, the Alevis are the lost Christian flock of Asia Minor - lost during the prevalence of the Ottomans - and that in many cases, the religious centers of the Alevis were built atop Christian churches.  Çınar goes as far as asserting that all the Alevi Elders (Dedes) are but Christians who in their desire to avoid forced Islamisation, had resorted to creating an Islamic heresy with many Christian elements.  He attributes a Christian and even an ancient Hellenic origin to the major religious center of the Alevis - the Hacibektas of Cappadocia - by pointing out the existence in that very place of an older temple of Zeus, and a later Christian monastery.   He even relates the Apostle Paul, the founder of the Christian church in Macedonia as he characteristically mentions, to the great spiritual leader of the Alevis, who was none other than the  Pir Sultan Abdal.
 
The Turkish author even invokes the writings of the renowned Turkish traveller of the Ottoman empire, Evliya Çelebi, in order to support that the influences of the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Matthew from Urfa of south-eastern Asia Minor, and even of the Empress Anna Comnene were determinative for the faithful (later Alevis),  thus raising a huge historical scandal over today's Alevis of contemporary Turkey.

Alevis in Turkey:
www.oodegr.com/english/thriskies/Islam/Alevis_in_Turkey.gif

his book naturally provoked intense reactions and discussions, once again bringing to light the serious problem of Alevis, which continues to be a large "thorn" with regard to the cohesion of the Turkish State. It is a fact, that, because of the marked rise in political Islam and the Sunnis in Turkey, the matter of the religious minority of Alevis has taken on a special political significance.  The recent decision by the Turkish government on the 19th July 2012 to once again not recognize the "Cem Evleri" - that is, the religious centers of the Alevis - has heightened this problem.  This matter is of extreme importance, if one  were to consider that the minority that comprises the Alevi populations reaches up to 20 million - a fact that implies yet another "tinderbox" in the foundations of modern-day Turkey.
 
The uncontested historical truth is that the Alevis appeared in a region of north-eastern Cappadocia, where there was a dense Greek-Orthodox Christian population. Many of the Christian elements that are observed in the Alevis are seen as actual grounds by those who support the view of their lost Christian identity.  The Alevis believe in Saint George, while Confession of new members was implemented, and, following Confession, they would be given wine to drink and bread and cheese to eat. Their "monks" observed celibacy, and were reminiscent of Christian monasteries in many other aspects.  Their beliefs have many common points with the Orthodox Christian presence in Asia Minor, which is why at quite an early stage they had attracted thousands of Greek Orthodox to their ranks.  A unique ritual of theirs which reminded us of the Last Supper was the Alevi tradition of a ritual meal.  The women preserved the status of freedom and of equality with men - a status that had existed ever since the ancient era among the Hellenes of Asia Minor. Even Ottoman historians such as Yakoub and Hasluk have stressed that Alevism owes much of its own beliefs to the Christian beliefs and rituals of the inhabitants of Asia Minor.
 
The highlight of all the above was the Alevi belief regarding the  Holy Trinity, a point that brought the Alevis even closer to the Hellenic Orthodox Christianity of Asia Minor.  The unity between God, Mohammed and the Prophet Ali was the Alevi version of the Holy Trinity.  However, the Orthodox influence of the Hellenes was also expressed in other ways, such as the pilgrim sites or the locations that were regarded as sacred by the Christians, which until this day, also continue to be  Alevi pilgrimage sites.
 
Most assuredly, this problem of the true identity of the Alevis which preoccupies modern-day Turkey from time to time is yet another "link" in the chain of identity problems that are the cause of "creakings" - and at times "earthquake tremors" - in today's Turkish regime.
 
********************************************
 
Special note:
 
Alevism (Alevilik) is a group identity which is variously interpreted as religious (combining Anatolian folk Shi'ism with Sufi elements such as those of the Bektaşi tariqa) sub-ethnic (within larger Turkish, Kurdish, and Zaza communities) cultural (emphasizing special traditions of poetry, music and dance), and/or humanistic and political (whether leftist or Kemalist). Estimates of the Alevi population place them somewhere between fifteen and twenty million people, primarily in Turkey. (Olli Rehn, from the 1996 (Camiel) "Eurlings Report" to the European Commission , on the suitability of Turkish accession to the EU . Also see "Alevism," from The Encyclopedia of the Orient). Alevi worship and other social activities take place in assembly houses (cemevi). The ceremony (âyîn-i cem, or simply cem) features music and dance (semah) in which both women and men participate. Rituals are performed in Turkish, Zazaki, and other local languages—not in Arabic, as in other Muslim groups.
"Alevi" is generally explained as referring to ‘Alī ibn Abī Tālib, the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad. The name represents a Turkish form of ‘Alawī (Arabic: علوي‎) "of or pertaining to ‘Alī".Even though the term Alevi is simply the Turkish derived form of Arabic ‘Alawī, the Arab form of the term today refers to the distinct group of the Arabic-speaking ‘Alawī of Syria.
Alevis believe in the unity of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali, but this is not a trinity composed of God and the historical figures of Muhammad and Ali. Rather, Muhammad and Ali are representations of divine energies, the first of which is Allah.
Alevism (Alevilik) is a group identity which is variously interpreted as religious (combining Anatolian folk Shi'ism with Sufi elements such as those of the Bektaşi tariqa) sub-ethnic (within larger Turkish, Kurdish, and Zaza communities)cultural (emphasizing special traditions of poetry, music and dance), and/or humanistic and political (whether leftist or Kemalist). Estimates of the Alevi population place them somewhere between fifteen and twenty million people, primarily in Turkey. (Olli Rehn, from the 1996 (Camiel) "Eurlings Report" to the European Commission , on the suitability of Turkish accession to the EU . Also see "Alevism," from The Encyclopedia of the Orient.).
Alevi worship and other social activities take place in assembly houses (cemevi).
The ceremony (âyîn-i cem, or simply cem) features music and dance (semah) in which both women and men participate. Rituals are performed in Turkish, Zazaki, and other local languages—not in Arabic, as in other Muslim groups.
"Alevi" is generally explained as referring to ‘Alī ibn Abī Tālib, the cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad. The name represents a Turkish form of ‘Alawī (Arabic: علوي‎) "of or pertaining to ‘Alī". Even though the term Alevi is simply the Turkish derived form of Arabic ‘Alawī, the Arab form of the term today refers to the distinct group of the Arabic-speaking ‘Alawī of Syria.
Alevis believe in the unity of Allah, Muhammad, and Ali, but this is not a trinity composed of God and the historical figures of Muhammad and Ali. Rather, Muhammad and Ali are representations of divine energies, the first of which is Allah.

 
***********************
 
(*) Turkology (Turkish: Türkoloji), also Turcology or Turkologie, is a complex of humanities sciences studying languages, history, literature, folklore, culture, and ethnology of people speaking Turkic languages and Turkic peoples in chronological and comparative context. This includes ethnic groups from the Turks (Turkish People), Sakha in East Siberia to the Balkan Turks and Gagauz in Moldova.
 
Translation K. N.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Why are you guys ignoring Canadian Football? Everybody always ignores the Canadians; it's not fair.
who?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying to say whether one group now is more greek or spartan is kind of silly considering even 100 years ago (i.e. before the first world war) Europe was totally different. It to two wars and the fall of communism to sort out most of the borders today
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Brazil Crushes Spain in FIFA Confederations Cup Final Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Brazil dominates and humiliates Spain, 3 - 0.

Brazil, on home turf, effectively pressured and disrupted the Spanish ground passing game by persistently making aggressive midfield challenges and with superior individual skills.

I suspect the Brazilians cleverly fed the Spaniards a special cucumber salad the night before.
This is bad, when Brazil wins games the fans start to come out, for most Americans who don't know, Brazilian soccer fans are like Cowboys fans but with larger numbers.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Trying to say whether one group now is more greek or spartan is kind of silly considering even 100 years ago (i.e. before the first world war) Europe was totally different. It to two wars and the fall of communism to sort out most of the borders today


What this has to do with the groups?

And Maniots are the only descendants. History tells that. They remained paganists till 11th century with all their traditions. Until Saint Nicon Metanoieite came and made them Christians because the Byzantine Empire couldn't face their resistance. They were named Maniots later... And in Greek Revolution they were called Spartans not Maniots although they weren't living in Sparta because then and today's Sparta has nothing to do with Spartans. Ancient Sparta was destroyed from a Catholic Monk who was named Michel Fourmont and destroyed all the Sparta with pleasure. He was sent from Louis XV of France. He destroyed over 1,500 inscriptions and everything ancient that you could see.

He wrote:
Code:
I penetrated in Mani.Six weeks I'm working on the complete destruction of Sparta! Demolishing the walls, temples, leaving no stone to stone and make her location unknown in future. So I will glorify my journey. Is not this something? ".

And further: "Sparta is the fifth city i've burnt. Now I deal with the destruction of the underlying foundations of the temple of Apollo Amyklaios. I'd destroy and other ancient sites as easily, if they'd left me. I toppled the tower completely."

For Troezen he states: "I demolished the remains of forts and temples.". And with incredible naivete he confesses: "by the travelers who were preceded I don't remember anyone to dare to demolish towers and other large buildings".


Thank God, the Frankish mission was cancelled because they were busy with other things and he couldn't go to burn Athens.

Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?


Last edited by valerios on Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:38 am; edited 5 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

valerios wrote:
Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?
Yes. Full of people with moustaches eating olives and smashing plates.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?
Yes. Full of people with moustaches eating olives and smashing plates.


Well that's only a part of them. There are and others...

For example Adamantios Korais didn't have a mustache.

And I talk about the situation in this time. The revolutions,trade,education etc...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

valerios wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?
Yes. Full of people with moustaches eating olives and smashing plates.


Well that's only a part of them. There are and others...

For example Adamantios Korais didn't have a mustache.

And I talk about the situation in this time. The revolutions,trade,education etc...
I was making a point about what we consider France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Austria, Turkey etc etc were completely different countries with completely different borders 500 years ago. They were full of countries like this and this and this. First you were this, then this, then this (the last two with their capital as Constantinople/Istanbul. So arguing about who you were 3 millennia ago on the basis of TODAY'S borders and lands is infeasable because they have only been there for 90 years.

For example we usually say the British gave Napoleon a good thrashing at Waterloo aided by Germany or Austria which is untrue. The British were aided by this, this, this and this. Although it was mostly the British :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well maybe he's new and think its same forums as the other ones, and I was goading him a bit (sry :oops:) with that Macedonian theme, cos I know it's an endless theme down there.

We kinda pretend we talk about something on OTW, but end up desconstructing each others bullshit most of the time :D
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?
Yes. Full of people with moustaches eating olives and smashing plates.


Well that's only a part of them. There are and others...

For example Adamantios Korais didn't have a mustache.

And I talk about the situation in this time. The revolutions,trade,education etc...
I was making a point about what we consider France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Austria, Turkey etc etc were completely different countries with completely different borders 500 years ago. They were full of countries like this and this and this. First you were this, then this, then this (the last two with their capital as Constantinople/Istanbul. So arguing about who you were 3 millennia ago on the basis of TODAY'S borders and lands is infeasable because they have only been there for 90 years.

For example we usually say the British gave Napoleon a good thrashing at Waterloo aided by Germany or Austria which is untrue. The British were aided by this, this, this and this. Although it was mostly the British :wink:


it was mostly Hannoveranians.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?
Yes. Full of people with moustaches eating olives and smashing plates.


Well that's only a part of them. There are and others...

For example Adamantios Korais didn't have a mustache.

And I talk about the situation in this time. The revolutions,trade,education etc...
I was making a point about what we consider France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Austria, Turkey etc etc were completely different countries with completely different borders 500 years ago. They were full of countries like this and this and this. First you were this, then this, then this (the last two with their capital as Constantinople/Istanbul. So arguing about who you were 3 millennia ago on the basis of TODAY'S borders and lands is infeasable because they have only been there for 90 years.

For example we usually say the British gave Napoleon a good thrashing at Waterloo aided by Germany or Austria which is untrue. The British were aided by this, this, this and this. Although it was mostly the British :wink:


it was mostly Hannoveranians.
They were cannon fodder
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
valerios wrote:
Do you know how Greece was from 15th until 20th century to talk about that?
Yes. Full of people with moustaches eating olives and smashing plates.


Well that's only a part of them. There are and others...

For example Adamantios Korais didn't have a mustache.

And I talk about the situation in this time. The revolutions,trade,education etc...
I was making a point about what we consider France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Austria, Turkey etc etc were completely different countries with completely different borders 500 years ago. They were full of countries like this and this and this. First you were this, then this, then this (the last two with their capital as Constantinople/Istanbul. So arguing about who you were 3 millennia ago on the basis of TODAY'S borders and lands is infeasable because they have only been there for 90 years.

For example we usually say the British gave Napoleon a good thrashing at Waterloo aided by Germany or Austria which is untrue. The British were aided by this, this, this and this. Although it was mostly the British :wink:


Actually Roman Empire was the same until 1453. The capital transfered in Constantinople. Trasfering the capital doesn't mean that you create a new empire... See tetrarchy...

The Roman empire was institutional in Constantinople in 330, and in no case in Ravenna.

Since the true center of the Roman Empire had become Constantinople from 330 and not Milan and Ravenna (for Rome was not even put on because it was less administratively in the 4th and 5th century by the three aforementioned cities) this center continued to exist and after the 476, so the Roman Empire continued to exist after the 476, so there was never any "Byzantium" or "Byzantine" Empire. Anyway the Roman empire had exceeded the city of Rome in 212, if not earlier, and the excess was completed in 293. In any case the Roman Empire not only continued to exist but retaliated in the 5th century, when Justinian invaded in 533 in Vandalic Carthage and in Ostrogothic Italy 535 in Italy, 551 in Visigothic Spain and released former Roman territories as a Roman emperor.

Those who seek for the starting point of the "Byzantine" Empire are looking actually a historical illusion. Those who called "Byzantine" Roman Empire after 476 or after 395 or after 330, then you should do the same for the period prior to 476, before 395 or before 330, otherwise this characterization leads to falsification of history and that's because the "Byzantine" Empire was Roman as the Roman Empire was "Byzantine." That the Roman empire changed after the 5th century to the 15th century is a fact, but that does not mean that it stopped to be Roman. The name "Roman" is not and will never exist as national characterization, but political that included all the citizens of the Roman Empire in particular from 212 and onwards. It would be impossible for the Roman empire to survive until the 15th century without change with the times. Besides the Roman Empire changed before the transfer of the capital to Constantinople when the city-state of Rome during the 2nd and 3rd century morphed into empire. The fact is that Rome became the capital of the province of the Empire 293 and then this empire survived until 15th century without being associated with the city of Rome which stopped to be part of the empire of the mid-8th century.

It was named "Byzantine" from the Germans of the "Holy" "Roman" empire for obvious reasons...

Prenj wrote:
Well maybe he's new and think its same forums as the other ones, and I was goading him a bit (sry :oops:) with that Macedonian theme, cos I know it's an endless theme down there.

We kinda pretend we talk about something on OTW, but end up desconstructing each others bullshit most of the time :D


it's ok
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've said:
cokehabit wrote:
So arguing about who you were 3 millennia ago on the basis of TODAY'S borders and lands is infeasable because they have only been there for 90 years.


Greek borders never expressed the Greek population as i've showed you before.

about Ottoman Empire:
Indeed himself sultan, Mehmed the Conqueror, apart from the rumored Greek descent, he spoke fluent Greek and wrote while studying closely the ancient Greek Education. As early as the year 1479 preserved Ottoman diplomatic documents "everything was written in Greek," which was "official language of the then Ottoman state.

The testimony of an enlightened: Greek-speaking Muslims weren't Turks, but of Greek origin who converted to Islam, it was known and to the spiritual fathers of the nation and the Revolution of 1821. One of them, the emigrant scholar Gregory Zalikoglou (1776-1827), wrote in his foreword to the "French-Dictionary" in the year 1809:
"The so called "Turks" aren't Turks, but the most of them are descendants of the Greeks;Aren't Greeks our brothers? All those millions that inhabit in todays Greece didn't came from Asia or from somewhere else; But after they left their language and the name of their ancestors, didn't participate neither in their eudoxy(glory). Todays Athenian is boasting for the wisdom of Themistocles, the Macedonian for Alexander's bravery; but what? and who? Everyone who keeps in his mouth and in his hearing, and the voice of them. Those who don't save the language of them. nor dare, neither image to boast for those ancestors, not because they believed in the Koran;since neither Themistocles knew the Gospel: but because he hasn't his language. "

Our national identity element is only our Greek language, according to Zalikoglou. Regardless if the Greek-speaking believes in the Koran or in the Gospel, because, as he wrote characteristically, "nor Themistocles knew the gospel."

There are many well known Greeks of that time who were in the highest posts of the Ottoman Empire and that was the goal of the Byzantine Empire. Because they didn't want to become a papic protectorate. They prefered Turks because they couldn't lose their faith so easy compared to Latins(we're still Orthodox) and we'd govern them easily because they were uneducated. For example the Pasha Mezhi Palaiogos(kept his Greek name), Alexander Mavrokordatos was Great Dragoumanos, Constantine Mavrokordatos prince of Wallachia,Ibrahim Pasha from Parga and many others.

Don't forget that Filiki Eteria acted in Wallachia with prince Ypsilantis. And see Rigas Charta which included all the Balkans in the new Greek state (and half of Asia Minor):
http://averoph.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/cf87ceb1cf81cf84ceb1-cf81ceb7ceb3ceb1cf83.jpg

Because the goal of the revolution was Constantinople and after that to free the Asia Minor because the population there was becoming even less with all those massacres. Few know that.
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Prenj
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pelagros is that you?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Pelagros is that you?


Yep. I think i've already told that i'm.
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