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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. A hotter continent. Positive summer mean temperature anomalies are becoming larger and more frequent.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
sikpuppy wrote:
What heatwave in Australia? It was most unremarkable except for a very few days. A blip maybe, not a cause for so much sabre rattling.


It was the hottest summer on record. The hottest January on record. The hottest month on record. The hottest day on record. The longest national-scale heatwave. There is a clear temperature trend with the consequence that extreme once-in-1000-years events are now occurring once every dozen years or so (just like climate scientists predicted they would).

What heatwave..?!

Hottest where? It's a continent.

He might be cherry picking now..
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scientific questions are decided by facts and evidence. Why are you accusing me of cherry-picking when you don't know anything about the relevant temperature data? It's like you've turned up at a posh function complaining "hey that guy's not wearing a tie!" but you're not wearing any trousers.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
In fact I already know where he got it; I didn't know if he would admit to it.
A simple yes would have been sufficient.

mcgruff wrote:
A guy standing at a podium with his dick in his hand is a cabaret show, for those that like that sort of thing.
Algore.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Scientific questions are decided by facts and evidence. Why are you accusing me of cherry-picking when you don't know anything about the relevant temperature data? It's like you've turned up at a posh function complaining "hey that guy's not wearing a tie!" but you're not wearing any trousers.

You are the one making accusations on people instead of coming with anything, ANYTHING else to say about the matter.
[edit]
You know it's a reversed change of temperature between north and south hemisphere right now? North cold, south warm. (beyond the regual trends)
Records in T is happening both in the red and blue. The mean global temp btw is more of interest. Since that is what the models show, right?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Algore.


Gore isn't a scientist. He's a politician.

Scientists do research, submit arguments for peer review, and then do talks AFTER they've developed a proper, formal argument.

Politicians go on the lecture circuit to persuade. Sometimes - like Gore - they back up their ideas with hard science. Most often not.

Which brings us to Shitby. In essence, he's playing on his scientific background to push ideas he can't get past peer-review. In other words, propaganda not science. If he ever publishes anything we could look at that but I can tell you now he's on a road to nowhere. Before long he'll be forgotten and the denier crowd will have moved on to some new bullshit du jour.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Which of his ideas do you think contradict the climate orthodoxy?

Well, you could start with the idea that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations is not primarily the cause of general atmospheric warming, but is instead primarily a result of it. According to him, this is what the record of CO2 and temperature levels clearly shows and whether or not we want to believe it, because of our understanding of greenhouse atmospherics, we need to accept the facts. This is what was pointed out in the OP, among other items.

So rather than calling him names, why don't you just explain why this is wrong. If your aim is to convince deniers not to be deniers, it seems to me that would be a lot more effective than calling them names. Unless you really just enjoy calling people names.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
You are the one making accusations against people who have anything, ANYTHING to say about the matter which isn't grounded in solid science.


FTFY

Quote:
The mean global temp btw is more of interest. Since that is what the models show, right?


Yes. Climate is the flow of energy through various earth systems. If you pump more energy into these systems you change the world's weather patterns. That can create extremes of cold as well as extremes of heat and it can affect different parts of the globe in different ways but the bottom line is the mean global temperature.

Please don't tell me it's stopped increasing, or is falling, without doing at least a little research first.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Well, you could start with the idea that increased atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations is not primarily the cause of general atmospheric warming, but is instead primarily a result of it. According to him, this is what the record of CO2 and temperature levels clearly shows and whether or not we want to believe it, because of our understanding of greenhouse atmospherics, we need to accept the facts.


CO2 can be a feedback and a forcing. Human emissions are 100% forcing.

Next!
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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
patrix_neo wrote:
You are the one making accusations against people who have anything, ANYTHING to say about the matter which isn't grounded in solid science.


FTFY

Quote:
The mean global temp btw is more of interest. Since that is what the models show, right?


Yes. Climate is the flow of energy through various earth systems. If you pump more energy into these systems you change the world's weather patterns. That can create extremes of cold as well as extremes of heat and it can affect different parts of the globe in different ways but the bottom line is the mean global temperature.

Please don't tell me it's stopped increasing, or is falling, without doing at least a little research first.


Have you seen the salby-video feed? It shows observed variations in temperatures. And, no, in the long term it will increase. But man-made? I can sell you a bridge...
[by the way] What is FTFY? I know americans are crazy about those...abrevations ?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ It's "Fixed That For You".
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Names...just another obstacle...for me. :)
[edit] FTFY == Fixed That For You? Ah...errata-fixer McG is in da house?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It means I'm not making accusations against people simply because they challenge the orthodoxy but only when they try to talk about a scientific subject whilst ignoring the science. Ain't no honest excuse for that.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
It means I'm not making accusations against people simply because they challenge the orthodoxy but only when they try to talk about a scientific subject whilst ignoring the science. Ain't no honest excuse for that.

To criticise is OK, but personal attacks are not. Just saying. Stay on (my serious) subject is.
Their excuses or not, if you want to make a case, a scientific serious case, you fail miserably. I am trying to stand on the facts. Predicitons, like models, one need more time than 150 years of earths climate data to make correct assumptions, I think.

Point of my thinking:

* 3 billion yrs ago, rocks made Ferrum Oxide to Oxide for about 1 bilion years. The whole ocean floor bottom was filled with FeO. Then, 2 billion years ago, the atmosphere had about 25% of O2 concentration. Wild fires was present, because of the high concentration of O2.
* about 650 million years ago life from the ocean became landbased.
* carboniferous period, where coal was stuck in matters, was cold and low on atmospheric CO2, just like it is now. Temperature was 'low' like now.
* This state is an extreme if you look back the last 650 million year time frame.
[edited] * This state is what will happen when the land mass is from pole-to-pole and hinders the oceans... or...?
* In about 440k years, the moon will be too far off, that the earth's rotation around it's axel will start to wobble so hard, this planet will be...out of luck.
* In this 440k year time frame, at least 3 ice ages will appear and go (my model). The tectonic plate moves too slow for the climate to be less of a difference than it is today.
* IPCC admins hinders scientist critic to it's main message. Why else has no critic been heard and published in the ballroom of science? Is the models so perfect and accurate?

This is where I am coming from.

I will not answer you unless you have something to say, grossly and harsh, but honest, as it may be. But something to say.


Last edited by patrix_neo on Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair comment is not a personal attack. I do try to be fair. Cruel but fair.

I'm not sure if you realise just how strange it is that someone would go around touting game-changing new theories on the lecture circuit without getting something published first. If you exhibited similarly suspicious behaviour while passing through an airport you'd end up bent over a desk with a rubber glove up your ass.

Any fool can get up on a stage and talk crap about climate - and many do. Only those with a real, scientific argument and something genuinely important to say get published in a major journal.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Fair comment is not a personal attack. I do try to be fair. Cruel but fair.

I'm not sure if you realise just how strange it is that someone would go around touting game-changing new theories on the lecture circuit without getting something published first. If you exhibited similarly suspicious behaviour while passing through an airport you'd end up bent over a desk with a rubber glove up your ass.

Any fool can get up on a stage and talk crap about climate - and many do. Only those with a real, scientific argument and something genuinely important to say get published in a major journal.


I had to jump in. Theories? What theories? CO2, presented, scientifically, by IPCC is just a hypothesis. Nothing about it has been prooved. Or has it? I agree, to hypothesis. They are. We have so little in knowledge (150 yrs of observed data, excluded proxies, tree rings, stomata and ice cores). I even have to go out on a stretch to say, this, cloud behaviour is a science no one can grasp so completely so you can tell how it will end up. It needs more than a Railway Engineer to see the results in the peer-reviewed papers to understand what it means.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
It means I'm not making accusations against people simply because they challenge the orthodoxy but only when they try to talk about a scientific subject whilst ignoring the science. Ain't no honest excuse for that.

ZOMG ignoring teh Scyents! \o/

Only mcgruff has teh Scyents! He might be the least educated guy in here, or close to it, but he's the only one who has teh Scyents!
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only BK has teh nonsense.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's also funny that you don't understand that "scientific orthodoxy" is a derogatory term.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
It's also funny that you don't understand that "scientific orthodoxy" is a derogatory term.

Not to the orthodox priests, they are so far in the shit they think its the shinola.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
It's also funny that you don't understand that "scientific orthodoxy" is a derogatory term.


Only to evidence-poor deniers.

Go on. Mention Galileo. You know you want to.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a) CO2 is a greenhouse gas.

b) humans have increased atmospheric CO2 A LOT in the last 150years

Please think about those two indisputable facts.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it's widely accepted, climatic greenhouse effect is a theory. It's not a Boolean issue either; theories are often somewhat right and somewhat wrong and require refinement over time. It's entirely possible, even likely, that we do not fully understand the role of CO2.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
It's also funny that you don't understand that "scientific orthodoxy" is a derogatory term.


Only to evidence-poor deniers.

Go on. Mention Galileo. You know you want to.

No, it's a derogatory term to everybody except pseudo-scyentific religionists who don't know any better. There is no room for a concept of "orthodoxy" in real science.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
While it's widely accepted, climatic greenhouse effect is a theory. It's not a Boolean issue either; theories are often somewhat right and somewhat wrong and require refinement over time. It's entirely possible, even likely, that we do not fully understand the role of CO2.


indeed, it is a THEORY not a HYPOTHESIS.

Please compare those two terms. Thanks a lot.
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