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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd? Part 2 Reply with quote

Team,

I didn't expect to ever need a Part 2 of a systemd thread but here it is.
Continued from Part 1
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: the end of part 1, avx's post about the debian dev.

Quote:
If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the
Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as
dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me
now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian
in very unhealthy directions.


An interesting view from a long time debian dev.

Food for thought in any distro, IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uudruid wrote:
Calm down..
..I think you need to lay off the drugs. They are making you paranoid..
You are putting your emotions in here and being quite insulting - to people who are supporting you no less.

Note there was no insult.
Quote:
Remember, I'm the one that started off saying I don't like dbus or gconf (aka Windows registry for Linux). So, your statement is totally ridiculous. You are shooting arrows into the wind my friend.

Yes, because we've never heard from anyone who simply joins this forum to take part in a controversial debate, who starts out seemingly "supporting" a position, only to slip in lots of points explicating why the trolls are right.

As for what you sounded like, that's not directed at you personally, but at your statements. You need to detach your ego from your words, which I took for granted because you made a big deal out of how you've been programming for so long, in one of your condescending replies to another poster. If you've been programming for any length of time, you must know that what comes out of your fingers isn't necessarily something you always want to stand by.

For instance I should have made it clear to you that I didn't necessarily think /etc/services was a good idea, but I removed that line. So my output was not as effective as it could have been in communicating my position.

However your post starts off asking for calm, and then runs off into lunacy (and risible cod-psychology) afaic; you presume that when your statements are demurred from, that it is something to do with you as a person.

For instance unsubstantiated allegations such as "before you blatantly call me stupid?", along with a presumption that I "feel so threatened that [I] resort to name calling" when I still can't find any name-calling in my output whatsoever. Sure I said what your statements read like, but that is about your statements, not about you. The difference is the essence of the argument, in case you actually want to think about the substantive point at some time in the future.
Quote:
So .. do you want to continue attacking each other?

I wasn't attacking you in the first place; merely discussing ideas. You presume too much.

But no, I have no wish to continue conversing with what appears to be such an immature "hacker", unable to distinguish between his statements and himself. Talking to you feels more like arguing with an agent provocateur than anything else, apart from perhaps a 12-year old in the playground.

Again, just my opinion of your output, not about you, nor any sort of statement about you for the rest of your life (as an insult would be): I don't know you, cannot see you, and hopefully never will.

You have my sincere wishes of good luck in your development, and understanding of what free speech is about, as well as the concomitant ability of anyone who wants to, expressing an opinion on that speech.

In passing I note that in your heightened state of defensiveness, derived from what I'd call ego-attachment to your own output (since we're doing cod-psychology), based on your words and the stance you took, and especially what you reacted so strongly too -- at least in what you mentioned even if not based on what I'd actually written; you took the time to "blatantly insult" me several times. And in terms that don't leave scope for the person to be any different in the future: ie just plain vanilla insults.

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to get any insight into the above, and realise that you have just effectively thrown a hissy-fit which you should apologise for; it may take a few years.

Good luck with that. (Feel free to call me more names, etc; I won't be responding to you again. And yes that's not technical: there are loads of far more able technical people who know how to deal with robust argument equably, and keep it sociable, as opposed to spewing insults and bile when someone writes something they don't like.)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

// nothing to see here, just a post for my history
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the debian dev, i think he wasn't concern that much by the technical part of systemd, and use it (as bad or good as it is), but more disgust by discussion.
However without systemd politic, such discussion wouldn't just exists at all, many (i would consider systemd fanboy) debian users claim openrc sucks bad, well, without saying openrc is the best product of the world, it at first should be the best product for a debian user : open, working and portable ; that's if i'm right 3 of the keys goal for debian for years ; at least portability of systemd should be real problem for a distro like debian.
But i really lack to see such discussion to remove, or not include openrc in debian.
If anyone start attacking openrc, other could just attack sysv, systemd or runit or anything, no product is perfect. So the product is not relevant to some technical problem, but really how the product is getting in the distro.

People keep claiming distro use DO-ocracy (some kind of "the one who do the code do what he want"), well, they seems to forget that model only works as long as your DO-ocracy still follow the path of the majority.
Any devs in a distro is a Baron, he sure rules his land as he wish, as long as he doesn't offend the King. Devs just discover Barons depend on King, and the King are the users for a non commercial distro.
Just fork Gentoo, what you will get? Devs making their own rules and following their own path, if that path is compatible with many users wish, you will get many users using it.
If that path is not that good, devs will endup the distro : because in a Do-ocracy, you are in real tied to a "Famouscracy", doing work for yourself is like dating Megan Fox, it is sweet sure, but it's no more sweeter than dating her and have your friends know!
If the path that attract users at first is no more follow, because dev think he can do what he wants, he just discover his DO-cracy that was a Famouscracy is in danger of falling apart.
And it could only get worst if you were following a good path, the more users you have, the more famous you get, but the counter part, the less DO-cracy power you have, as the power goes into the hands of the users.

That's the systemd problem, even if you put Barons that follow your point of view to drive the mass in the direction you wish, it might work on a small distro where Do-cracy is still working, but on a huge distro like debian, that have famouscracy model for a long time, the King is your user base.
Debian ideology/path/code/promise are attacked by systemd model, if debian lost his users, you could claim all you wish debian rocks with systemd ; but i'm afraid this will only be debian epitaph... No users, no distro.
It's also not that good for devs, no users, no fame, no devs, no distro.

It's something Gnome just learned too ; we do what we want : hmmm, wait, hummm, where are our users gone? Let's put back a "classic mode" then... (lol guys, i'm afraid your shitty interface is not the only problem, good you get the classic mode back, but you should really re-think about an init dependency over a DE!)
It's even something commercial companies may see, Microsoft will put back the start menu in next Windows...

So major distro are drive by famouscracy despite their devs thinking they still live in a Do-ocracy world...
In a distro that reach that "famouscracy" state, the distro could survive without the original devs, while no distro could survive without its users.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Debian dev is stepping down, albeit he says it's not triggered by Joey Hess resigning.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00052.html


I like to believe that such politicking (as seen in the vast, confusing array of Debian mailinglist discussions around the issues at hand) is not going to happen to Gentoo and that it is primarily the consequence of Debian being a binary distro that has to make certain decisions on behalf of users with respect to what software combinations to use in order to build the distribution, and only then a consequence of having such an entangled bureaucratic leadership system. Even if by some chance syStemd does become a default on Gentoo the impact should be much less than on Debian because removing it would be a USE flag away. Someone mentioned forking Gentoo but really, how meaningful is that given we have overlays? I am sure we can - and by we I include me, as I will surely be glad to step up and help as much as possible - offer official stage-3 tarballs to ensure there is alternative and choice, always.

Granted, it is not a question of maintainers' decisions as much as it is a question of major software packages becoming directly dependent on systemd, eg. GNOME. But in that regard, let's see what systembsd does to address the issue.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problems with debian are two fold, the TC abusing their position and talking more power than they should have and the constitution.

With the little patch that had been applied to xinit (screwing everything not sysd) it seems sysd's influence is going beyond just the init system and gnome.
Yes, it's an easy patch to undo, but as more sysd fanbois work on projects outside of sysd,
I expect more of this type of insidious behavior, ie tying things to sysd even when they don't need to be.

As far as systembsd, if I were running gnome, I would consider that an option
but why the hell should I even have to deal with something that even looks like sysd
when I'm not running gnome? I don't want things on my system that even mimic sysd's behavior or even its interface.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder, is there any single thing about systemd that hasn't been said at least 10 times here?
Here, let me show you another topic for flame wars:
Coke hasn't changed for years. Why is Gentoo not switching to Pepsi?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
I wonder, is there any single thing about systemd that hasn't been said at least 10 times here?
Here, let me show you another topic for flame wars:
Coke hasn't changed for years. Why is Gentoo not switching to Pepsi?


Simple, we're a supermarket and all sorts of Colas are available for our customers.

Lame trolling :evil:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd? Part 2 Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
I didn't expect to ever need a Part 2 of a systemd thread but here it is.

I knew eventually it'd be locked. I just didn't expect it to be due to this reason. :lol:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrueXYZ wrote:
I like to believe that such politicking (as seen in the vast, confusing array of Debian mailinglist discussions around the issues at hand) is not going to happen to Gentoo and that it is primarily the consequence of Debian being a binary distro that has to make certain decisions on behalf of users with respect to what software combinations to use in order to build the distribution, and only then a consequence of having such an entangled bureaucratic leadership system.

That's a bit optimistic imo: Gentoo has already had its share of politicking on the dev ml. As usual there's a pretext of "looking after the users" which swings to "force them to do what we want" usually along with "if anyone wants X, they can do Y."; reasoning which is never applied to systemd, or whatever other latest gizmo they've half-understood and now it sounds so shiny..
Quote:
Even if by some chance syStemd does become a default on Gentoo the impact should be much less than on Debian because removing it would be a USE flag away. Someone mentioned forking Gentoo but really, how meaningful is that given we have overlays?

That point was in fact made immediately when forking was raised. I know, because I'm the one who raised it, and at that time I said it wasn't necessary, and that in fact in terms of bringing up a distro from scratch (which is what releng does, so we don't have to) it's always going to be much less work to put out an openrc stage, which can switch to systemd when the profile is selected.
Quote:
I am sure we can - and by we I include me, as I will surely be glad to step up and help as much as possible - offer official stage-3 tarballs to ensure there is alternative and choice, always.

I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, but I think we should stand our ground, and never be accommodating of doing things badly.

Making releng do a lot of unnecessary work, in order to have a much less reliable release cycle, and a much less capable end-product, counts as that, afaic.
Quote:
Granted, it is not a question of maintainers' decisions as much as it is a question of major software packages becoming directly dependent on systemd, eg. GNOME. But in that regard, let's see what systembsd does to address the issue.

You'll no doubt see more packages get deliberately crippled upstream, since systemdiots are so clearly carrying out a campaign directed at as many base packages as they can, carried out via sympathetic 5th-columnists, much like the paludroids have tried for several years to coopt Gentoo.

The question is whether you capitulate to that, or instead prove that it's not needed, and get ebuild patches into Gentoo until the upstream comes to its senses. In some cases they can't, as systemdbug has subsumed the package (one or two versions after promising it would still be available separately) so in those cases we go back to the original community effort, and add in useful community patches that have come after the fork (for all the propaganda, that's what it is, since the original product no longer works.)

What Anon-E-moose said applies to the rest: "I don't want things on my system that even mimic sysd's behavior or even its interface."

AFAIC it's borken design all the way through, right from the conception of a "desktop bus".
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Systemd, finally with builtin PPPoE support, will be soon available in a store next around your corner!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

happosai wrote:
Systemd, finally with builtin PPPoE support, will be soon available in a store next around your corner!


yaay. :-|
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrbassie wrote:
happosai wrote:
Systemd, finally with builtin PPPoE support, will be soon available in a store next around your corner!


yaay. :-|


Makes you wonder how soon our next "emerge -atuvDN world" will have us running Lennux?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
mrbassie wrote:
happosai wrote:
Systemd, finally with builtin PPPoE support, will be soon available in a store next around your corner!


yaay. :-|


Makes you wonder how soon our next "emerge -atuvDN world" will have us running Lennux?
As soon as the Lennart crowd catches the gentoo devs off-guard, sneak someone in, and change the RDEPEND line in the current portage ebuild to include "sys-apps/systemd". ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckily if that would happen, it's only a simple thing of masking the offending portage version and not updating it till that was resolved. Worse case, Paludis will get a new breath of fresh air. Just because a distro uses a certain package manager, does not mean you have to use it. It's not hard to get a different package manager, install it, and use that over the distro's default one.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is getting harder and harder to keep Lennart off my system...

(Note, I have -zeroconf and -avahi in my make.conf).

Code:

# emerge -puDNt synergy

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ~] x11-misc/synergy-1.6.1 [1.5.1_p2398]
[ebuild  N     ]  net-dns/avahi-0.6.31-r6  USE="autoipd dbus gdbm gtk introspection ipv6 mdnsresponder-compat nls python qt4 -bookmarks -doc -gtk3 -howl-compat -mono (-selinux) {-test} -utils" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild   R    ] net-print/cups-1.7.5  PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="(-python2_7%*)"
[nomerge       ] net-dns/avahi-0.6.31-r6  USE="autoipd dbus gdbm gtk introspection ipv6 mdnsresponder-compat nls python qt4 -bookmarks -doc -gtk3 -howl-compat -mono (-selinux) {-test} -utils" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild  NS    ]  sys-devel/automake-1.11.6 [1.13.4]
[ebuild   R    ]  dev-libs/gobject-introspection-1.40.0-r1  PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="(-python2_7%*)"
[nomerge       ] kde-base/kdebase-meta-4.12.5
[nomerge       ]  kde-base/kdebase-startkde-4.11.9
[nomerge       ]   kde-base/phonon-kde-4.12.5
[ebuild   R    ]    media-libs/alsa-lib-1.0.28  PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="(-python2_7%*)"
[nomerge       ] net-dns/avahi-0.6.31-r6  USE="autoipd dbus gdbm gtk introspection ipv6 mdnsresponder-compat nls python qt4 -bookmarks -doc -gtk3 -howl-compat -mono (-selinux) {-test} -utils" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild  N     ]  dev-libs/libdaemon-0.14-r2  USE="-doc -examples -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)"
[ebuild   R    ]  dev-lang/python-exec-2.0.1-r1  PYTHON_TARGETS="(pypy3*)"


Guess I'm stuck on synergy 1.5 forever... Avahi and libdaemon are not welcome (and about to be added to my package.mask).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:
It is getting harder and harder to keep Lennart off my system...

(Note, I have -zeroconf and -avahi in my make.conf).

Code:

# emerge -puDNt synergy

These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ~] x11-misc/synergy-1.6.1 [1.5.1_p2398]
[ebuild  N     ]  net-dns/avahi-0.6.31-r6  USE="autoipd dbus gdbm gtk introspection ipv6 mdnsresponder-compat nls python qt4 -bookmarks -doc -gtk3 -howl-compat -mono (-selinux) {-test} -utils" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild   R    ] net-print/cups-1.7.5  PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="(-python2_7%*)"
[nomerge       ] net-dns/avahi-0.6.31-r6  USE="autoipd dbus gdbm gtk introspection ipv6 mdnsresponder-compat nls python qt4 -bookmarks -doc -gtk3 -howl-compat -mono (-selinux) {-test} -utils" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild  NS    ]  sys-devel/automake-1.11.6 [1.13.4]
[ebuild   R    ]  dev-libs/gobject-introspection-1.40.0-r1  PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="(-python2_7%*)"
[nomerge       ] kde-base/kdebase-meta-4.12.5
[nomerge       ]  kde-base/kdebase-startkde-4.11.9
[nomerge       ]   kde-base/phonon-kde-4.12.5
[ebuild   R    ]    media-libs/alsa-lib-1.0.28  PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="(-python2_7%*)"
[nomerge       ] net-dns/avahi-0.6.31-r6  USE="autoipd dbus gdbm gtk introspection ipv6 mdnsresponder-compat nls python qt4 -bookmarks -doc -gtk3 -howl-compat -mono (-selinux) {-test} -utils" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild  N     ]  dev-libs/libdaemon-0.14-r2  USE="-doc -examples -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)"
[ebuild   R    ]  dev-lang/python-exec-2.0.1-r1  PYTHON_TARGETS="(pypy3*)"


Guess I'm stuck on synergy 1.5 forever... Avahi and libdaemon are not welcome (and about to be added to my package.mask).


The real question here is. "Which upstream is trying to push avahi on you?" This could be a problem with synergy or with the ebuild. I would grab the synergy tarball and try building it manually. Read the makefile/configure stuff and see if avahi is optional at that level. It may be that an ebuild tweak will fix you up.

Oops, just noticed that there's already a bug filed against this very point - https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528818
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not here to get into the technical arguments flying round, but, let me say that I'm glad that gentoo continues to offer a choice.

I have been using gentoo a long time and post in forums very very very infrequently (more do'er than discuss), I spent a period away in petulance after support was dropped for my xbox (a classic xbox, it wasn't classic back then though) because of legal wobbles. I wrote a now probably long unmaintained howto for a couple of my older laptops that may be confusing people still by being so out of date and unmaintained but I've been away from it of late (corporate computing crushes the enthusiasm out of it y'know), and let my gentoo box get so they stopped being able to emerge -Dup world without massive circular dependancies (my own fault/doing). So I bought new hardware to upgrade onto so I didnt loose anything important in the transition, and that means a whole new fresh install, little foray into ssd drives and other toys to throw in the mix.
I'd discussed systemd and its ever encroachment onto linux land with a few co-workers and we'd ranted technically like people down in the server trenches do, and I'd assumed it had stayed in redhat's domain, I was surprised to see it made debian. We've used smf on solaris for a while now at work amongst other unixes, and I don't really like it personally, its a bit hiding away the beauty of the innards from me, I like shell scripts and I used to like solaris but less so now, I don't want a registry or a monolithic monster trying to take over everything and abstract it all away, I have been known to alter/hack on them to get things working in a pinch now and again, and thats just been linux for me and some of my hacks have been holding things together for far longer than they should have been for the odd household name over the years.
But plenty of people have said this. I was also upset to also see systemd as a hard dependancy for gnome3. I stayed away from kde from the licensing issues in the early days with trolltech (I have a 4 front oss soundsystem licence somewhere too!) and gnome had been a habit for years along with ratpoison and the occasional foray into enlightenment. I've just wrenched myself away from it, and installed kde, followed by E17.
So, the hard dependancy has lost the gnome desktop one tiny long term user and occasional tinkerer they don't really care about. They won't loose any sleep, but it feels right on a personal choice level.

Gentoo is still about choice (even if I have occasionally disagree'd with that choice), long long long may that continue.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:

The real question here is. "Which upstream is trying to push avahi on you?" This could be a problem with synergy or with the ebuild. I would grab the synergy tarball and try building it manually. Read the makefile/configure stuff and see if avahi is optional at that level. It may be that an ebuild tweak will fix you up.

Oops, just noticed that there's already a bug filed against this very point - https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528818


Thanks for the link! I was going to try exactly as you stated later tonight and file a bug if the dependency wasn't actually required. Now I don't have to.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:
depontius wrote:

The real question here is. "Which upstream is trying to push avahi on you?" This could be a problem with synergy or with the ebuild. I would grab the synergy tarball and try building it manually. Read the makefile/configure stuff and see if avahi is optional at that level. It may be that an ebuild tweak will fix you up.

Oops, just noticed that there's already a bug filed against this very point - https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528818


Thanks for the link! I was going to try exactly as you stated later tonight and file a bug if the dependency wasn't actually required. Now I don't have to.


You might consider filing a "me too" against that bug. Since avahi is a L.P. creation, filing a bug against it may require multiple users to show the problem, these days. They may still choose to close it as, "Working as designed." In which case it's time to start augmenting your local overlay.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
...snip...


Done.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a proponent over on Google+:

Quote:
any new service which comes along in systemd will be able to describe itself via dbus. certainly you've built 40 years of shell hackery to digest the plethora of different outputs from the various core utilities that run the core of your systems, and that's great, but I can replace the fleet of custom-crafted one-offs with one master-script i write in a weekend that will monitor all subsystems known today and all subsystems introduced tomorrow. and i can write that one monitor script in a weekend.

machines which export machine-readable interfaces are things developers want. it's a quality operations should want. playing with much-varied text outputs are a mode of operation that make scalable development very very hard to perform: machines ought be producing outputs immediately digestible by machines.


God help us.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RazielFMX wrote:
It is getting harder and harder to keep Lennart off my system...

(Note, I have -zeroconf and -avahi in my make.conf).

...

Guess I'm stuck on synergy 1.5 forever... Avahi and libdaemon are not welcome (and about to be added to my package.mask).


It looks like they added zeroconf (avahi) to the 1.6.* codebase and there is no switch to turn it off (at least no obvious one)
It would probably have to be a request to the developer of synergy (good luck with that) to make it optional.

So I would say that you are indeed stuck with <1.6* versions.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
RazielFMX wrote:
It is getting harder and harder to keep Lennart off my system...

(Note, I have -zeroconf and -avahi in my make.conf).

...

Guess I'm stuck on synergy 1.5 forever... Avahi and libdaemon are not welcome (and about to be added to my package.mask).


It looks like they added zeroconf (avahi) to the 1.6.* codebase and there is no switch to turn it off (at least no obvious one)
It would probably have to be a request to the developer of synergy (good luck with that) to make it optional.

So I would say that you are indeed stuck with <1.6* versions.


Or a local overlay to make it switchable. There's a bug on this, and the person who filed the bug already verified that it builds and works without avahi.
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