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TomWij
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
It is the most important rule of Redhat-Poettering conspiration theory:
Code:
Gentoo is about choice. Supporting Systemd destroys Gentoo.
You cannot argue about that. If you tried the last pages of this thread, it is blown in the wind.


This is the kind of the type of rule that is made to be broken; there is no need to argue it, as people supporting systemd consistently break that rule.

ulenrich wrote:
The only method would be to create an anti-conspiration-conspiration-theory: Google has paid some guys for red-herring purpose. Exactly what is told about Redhat is the case with Googles Android platform.


Hmm, let me try; "Gentoo can't destroy support for systemd. Gentoo is about choice.".
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:

Why would they?


Because of being too useless to come up with a working solution.

TomWij wrote:

How did they?


By being too goddamn retarted to come up with a goddamn well engineered solution, and producing lots of kludges upon kludges upon kludges instead.

The council sucks. The devs suck. You suck. This sums up the thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:

The only method would be to create an anti-conspiration-conspiration-theory: Google has paid some guys for red-herring purpose. Exactly what is told about Redhat is the case with Googles Android platform.


There is no conspiracy. Just plain regular large scale stupidity.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
There is no conspiracy. Just plain regular large scale stupidity.

You know, that I can deal with. I would admit there is plenty of stupidity or point out the smartness, for example:
- Just now I see upstream Systemd developers working hard to not fsck twice before mounting, a fucking shit of a bool bit :(
- It is kind of super smart to employ special Linux kernel features to get some vertical integrating communication ready :)

But I really hate conspiration theory, of which two of it motivated my country fellows to get killed some 60 million people in the second world war. Also I am atheist I know it is against the bible to knowingly talk falsely against others just for fun ...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
There is no conspiracy. Just plain regular large scale stupidity.

You know, that I can deal with. I would admit there is plenty of stupidity or point out the smartness, for example:
- Just now I see upstream Systemd developers working hard to not fsck twice before mounting, a fucking shit of a bool bit :(
- It is kind of super smart to employ special Linux kernel features to get some vertical integrating communication ready :)

But I really hate conspiration theory, of which two of it motivated my country fellows to get killed some 60 million people in the second world war. Also I am atheist I know it is against the bible to knowingly talk falsely against others just for fun ...


That reminded me of this story - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign
First create a major problem, then heroicly solve it. Repeat.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
The council sucks. The devs suck. You suck. This sums up the thread.

Chill out will ya? No-one's said anything like that, afaic. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. That's why it's long been acknowledged that in the forum of free discussion, people will sometimes make either incorrect or misleading statements, and why we draw a distinction between someone's statements (which we can freely criticise, as statements) and the person making them (whom we cannot attack, as to do so is both unpleasant and irrelevant to the matter at hand.)

OFC there are malicious statements as well, and all kinds of other statements, but that's what moderators are for. We happen to have some of the best, imo, which is why the forums work so well.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
The council sucks. The devs suck. You suck. This sums up the thread.

Chill out will ya? No-one's said anything like that, afaic. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. That's why it's long been acknowledged that in the forum of free discussion, people will sometimes make either incorrect or misleading statements, and why we draw a distinction between someone's statements (which we can freely criticise, as statements) and the person making them (whom we cannot attack, as to do so is both unpleasant and irrelevant to the matter at hand.)

OFC there are malicious statements as well, and all kinds of other statements, but that's what moderators are for. We happen to have some of the best, imo, which is why the forums work so well.


I'm cool, thanks.

The problem with "the forum of free discussion" is that the discussion itself is worthless. You can a hundred times write that systemd is a badly engineered piece of crap and adapting the whole distro to incorporate it is a bad idea, and TomWij can reply a hundred times that everything's ok. That doesnt lead anywhere, and the problem persists. The devs will commit sometimes stupid changes, our systems will break again and again, another free discussion will emerge and fade, et cetera.

And no, you cannot make a distinction between a person and his actions (or statements), because a person is a sum of his actions. You do not distinct a retard from a crappy mess he does, do you?
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schorsch_76
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
schorsch_76 wrote:
The only possible solution for users is to talk to the devs like on this thread. People should not be called haters, when they try to discuss with the devs in an attemt to defend their freedom.


Yes and no; I wouldn't use my participance as an example, because I can not lead to a possible solution (unless the intention is to convince me to join the systemd herd and change things, or something else; but then I am simply not interested, so, there is no need to convince me). But yes, more discussion with the actual developers might lead to improvements; while I don't know where they hang out, you could try the gentoo-systemd ML.

schorsch_76 wrote:
Is there an "gentoo social contract" like the one for debian? [1] Is there a need to establish one? Is there an DSFG [1] for gentoo?


Yes and no; on the forums, in the first instance the forum rules count.

Outside the forums, or when things really get out of hand; when it is not just a misunderstanding but rather intentional, there is the Gentoo CoC.


So may i ask, if you are not here as a developer who can change things, why are you in this thread? Is it to hard to simple say yes to this point?

schorsch_76 wrote:
The only possible solution for users is to talk to the devs like on this thread. People should not be called haters, when they try to discuss with the devs in an attemt to defend their freedom.


You say "some degree of no" to this point. That is ridiculous!
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mv
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
So by default we have #!/bin/sh and then check with getconf before we install. It's not hard at all.

Who is "we" here? I grep'ed the gentoo tree for "getconf" and did not find a single example where this was done. I am also not sure whether it is the right way to do it in the ebuild since it would need to be done in pkg_postinst(), because if done earlier in src_install() you would get broken binary packages. However, pkg_postinst() changes to installed files are better avoided since they produce a broken checksum in /var/db. I am also sure that portage/prefix-portage does not do it internally automatically, because otherwise I would not have received corresponding bug reports for packages which had used #!/bin/sh and were plain POSIX (but were using things like ${var%...} or ${var#...} which apparently are not - or only in a broken way concerning escapes and quoting - supported by some shells in the wild). In fact, the recommendation I got in these bug reports by user of such systems was #!/usr/bin/env sh, and later I checked that POSIX only guarantess that the first "sh" in PATH is a POSIX shell; it does not require this for /bin/sh
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:

schorsch_76 wrote:
The only possible solution for users is to talk to the devs like on this thread. People should not be called haters, when they try to discuss with the devs in an attemt to defend their freedom.


You say "some degree of no" to this point. That is ridiculous!


Well, you, stevel and greydot have brought up good points.

But some of these people are here simply to be trolls.
Whether trolling because they are paid to do it or
because they aren't smart enough to do anything else is moot.
But I recognize the trolling.

The only way to deal with them is simply ignore them.
State your views and don't get drawn into silly line by line attempts at 3rd grade rebuttals and word redefinition.
Then go do something else.

Pax.
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:
So may i ask, if you are not here as a developer who can change things, why are you in this thread? Is it to hard to simple say yes to this point?


Yes. It is a thread about systemd, it sparkles my interest; so I join the discussion, as well as try to keep it on its topic.

grey_dot wrote:
The council sucks. The devs suck. You suck. This sums up the thread.


Why? This thread is not about them.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
The council sucks. The devs suck. You suck. This sums up the thread.


Why? This thread is not about them.


This thread, at least the latest several pages, is about gentoo adapting to systemd and not vice versa as it probably should be. That is the result of the developers' actions. So yes, this thread is among other things about them.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lennart is writing some stuff about the ongoing discussion at Debian [1] about systemd

Most important quote from Lennart to me:
Quote:

People on the email thread have claimed we had an agenda. That's actually certainly true, everybody has one. Ours is to create a good, somewhat unified, integrated operating system. And that's pretty much all that is to our agenda.

[2]

I hope debian chooses right, because debian is the base for a lot of distributions and has a big weight.

[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.devel.general/187624/
[2] https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Well, you, stevel and greydot have brought up good points.

But some of these people are here simply to be trolls.
Whether trolling because they are paid to do it or
because they aren't smart enough to do anything else is moot.
But I recognize the trolling.

I am baffled how quickly this Google conspiration theory gets popular: It was meant as a joke! Half joke though, because all circumstances needed would fit. But really Google is by far over the top, they don't need such action. Though you may say as joke to open their eyes: "If you don't get paid doing a Goolges job laying the red herring you miss the opportunity. But we see your point against Systemd is hot air anyway." And remember your own words, only some are trolling, SteveL may have his arguments with deeper insight, because he actively contributes to choice ...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

schorsch_76 wrote:

I hope debian chooses right, because debian is the base for a lot of distributions and has a big weight.

[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.debian.devel.general/187624/
[2] https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf


I doubt the choice they have is any good because both init systems suck, and instead of getting any actual benefits they will just overcomplicate things. Somebody should add openrc and runit to their list.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is the option to stay at sysvinit ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting read ;)

http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2013-10.html#e2013-10-29T13_39_32.txt
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kollin wrote:
Interesting read ;)

http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2013-10.html#e2013-10-29T13_39_32.txt


LoLoL, a true classic. Thanks for the laugh.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a really nice discussion on LKML [1] Pure gold [2] what Linus and kernel guys think about systemd and udev.

Linus torvalds wrote:

>> I basically tried a few different approaches, including deferred probe(),> as you suggested, and request_firmware_async(), as Kay suggested.Stop this crazy. FIX UDEV ALREADY, DAMMIT.Who maintains udev these days? Is it Lennart/Kai, as part of systemd?

[1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/2/194
[2] https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/3/618
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be real interested in what Linus thinks of things now, as those were from last year.

No, he wasn't too happy with udev crowd at the time for breaking things then not owning up to it.
And I can't blame him.

Personally, I'll keep my system like it is and watch the fireworks happen when everyone that
has jumped on the systemd bandwagon realizes that the systemd developers are in over their heads
with what they are attempting to do. I base this pessimistic assumption on what many of these
developers were trying to do with HAL and the fiasco that followed it. And hal wasn't near as
complex or ambitious as systemd.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@schorsch_76
Your link of the Poettering statement made me think to revise my expectations.

I don't get it how your side of this discussion constantly diminishes valid arguments by fishing for cheap applause.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
TomWij wrote:
grey_dot wrote:
The council sucks. The devs suck. You suck. This sums up the thread.


Why? This thread is not about them.


This thread, at least the latest several pages, is about gentoo adapting to systemd and not vice versa as it probably should be. That is the result of the developers' actions. So yes, this thread is among other things about them.


The /usr problem is much larger than just systemd, while systemd is one possible cause; it is not the only one. This is rather the result of the developers' lack of action, because they simply cannot do that much about it as it is more complex than what users think about; if you take systemd out of the picture, you still have to deal with the other problems and that is not a simple task. As apparently nobody is able to do it properly without tons of patches; there isn't a single group of people that suck, rather, everyone sucks because we're all in this together. However, that is outside the scope of this thread; so, it cannot possible sum it up...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomWij wrote:
The /usr problem is much larger than just systemd, while systemd is one possible cause; it is not the only one. This is rather the result of the developers' lack of action, because they simply cannot do that much about it as it is more complex than what users think about; if you take systemd out of the picture, you still have to deal with the other problems and that is not a simple task. As apparently nobody is able to do it properly without tons of patches; there isn't a single group of people that suck, rather, everyone sucks because we're all in this together. However, that is outside the scope of this thread; so, it cannot possible sum it up...


Blah-blah-blah. What is the /usr problem?

The only thing I can imagine is some weirdo's bluetooth keyboard not working at boot, because bluez is infected with dbus just like a south african hooker infected with AIDS. Sucks to be him, but in this case a proper solution would be the auto-da-fé of the bluez developers altogether, and not another damn series of kludges.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
The problem with "the forum of free discussion" is that the discussion itself is worthless. You can a hundred times write that systemd is a badly engineered piece of crap and adapting the whole distro to incorporate it is a bad idea, and TomWij can reply a hundred times that everything's ok. That doesnt lead anywhere, and the problem persists. The devs will commit sometimes stupid changes, our systems will break again and again, another free discussion will emerge and fade, et cetera.

So what? "Someone on the internet is wrong" or an internet forum goes round and round in circles: par for the course ime. IRC can be worse, depending on where you are. To my mind this forum is the equivalent of #gentoo-chat, and much as I love that crowd, sometimes they just chat utter crap for hours on end: that's what the room is for, and that's what I do when I go in there too. That's the whole point of it, afaic.

If problems persist and developers just aren't listening, then eventually users move to another distro. However, irrespective of how useful you think the discussion may or may not be (and if it's so useless, why not just back away and ignore it for a while?) the one thing you cannot say is that TomWij is not listening and engaging with the users. Whether we agree with him or not, he deserves respect just like every other person on the forums.

That's not to say you can't shoot down his statements, just like mine or anyone else's. Apart from your next statement, which does give you problems, doesn't it?
Quote:
And no, you cannot make a distinction between a person and his actions (or statements), because a person is a sum of his actions.

Pfft. And you really think an internet forum is the right place for you to judge the sum of a person's actions? Who do you think you are, God?

Frankly that statement is utter crap afaic. If you think that's a statement about you personally, you are clearly as immature as everyone you sling insults at, if not more. You must have written crap code before now: do you believe that code is you, too? Even when you're debugging what you wrote?
Quote:
You do not distinct a retard from a crappy mess he does, do you?

Actually I do. And I don't like the word "retard", since I actually grew up living next-door to two "retarded" kids (as they were known back then); I find it as deeply offensive as the insult "spastic" or "joey" which was a UK word back then, too.

I might use words that others find more offensive in private about eg Poettering or Sievers. I would not do so in public, as that's not the point: the point is the mistaken path they're leading (or rather kicking) us down, which has been seen before so many times Unix people even have a name for the pattern ("One True Way"; as I'm sure you know.)

My criticisms of them may well appear to be personal in other contexts, if you really think that it's inappropriate to criticise management-style, or arm-twisting, or propagandising instead of letting your code speak for itself. Again, I don't really care: I take my lead in this regard not from geeks, but from wider society, and history (what little I know of it.)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Locked, this was going nowhere and was generating ridiculous amounts of acrimony.

Also, grey_dot had been warned, and is now banned until such time as their boredom has been sufficiently remedied.
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