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Muso
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Who defines "unusual"?


Numbers. When you start looking at single digit percentages, the term "unusual" fits perfectly well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Of course nobody should be pushed into it - is someone here advocating that?


There is an element of that. Transgenderistas demand that individuals can choose their own gender and this reinforces the idea that you do have to conform to one narrowly-defined gender in the first place. If they were truly radical, and gender-aware, they would be demanding that we alter our understanding of human diversity to include those with unusual biology not encouraging people to conform with body-altering hormones and surgery.

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If someone wants to do X, and X doesn't affect you, then the proper response is "fine, go ahead". It doesn't matter what X is. Why you think it matters whether it is a "medical" issue is beyond me.


Last time I checked, these are medical treatments and therefore subject to medical codes of ethics.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
On the other hand, men taking hormones to become like women, or vice versa, isn't a medical issue. It's a psychological one. Counselling, yes; hormones, no.

Same for sex change surgery, with knobs on. This is downright unethical so, yes, they're staying on.

Except, medical science says you're wrong. But lets jam our fingers in our ears and lalala all day long.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Transgenderistas demand that individuals can choose their own gender and this reinforces the idea that you do have to conform to one narrowly-defined gender in the first place.

Choice doesn't come into it. Your gender is innately formed in by your brain in-utero. The problem is gender and sex isn't synonymous for 1 in 10,000 people. This is what you're not getting with your black & white thinking: gender and sex aren't identical properties, they just happen to commonly share the same values in healthy humans.

mcgruff wrote:
If they were truly radical, and gender-aware, they would be demanding that we alter our understanding of human diversity to include those with unusual biology not encouraging people to conform with body-altering hormones and surgery.

Again you show your GID cluelessness. It isn't their 'unusual and unique biology which needs to be accepted' which is at issue here. The problem is their brain carries a gender which doesn't reflect their sex. Which means either one of the two things need to change; their gender; or their sex. And since gender is determined by the brain, and is an innate character property, all that really can be changed is the sex, hence why medical science recommends sex reassignment as a treatment.

mcgruff wrote:
Last time I checked, these are medical treatments and therefore subject to medical codes of ethics.

Which is precisely why they treat with sex reassignment. Because it is a) ethical, and b) effective to remedy the dysphoria.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:

I don't think you even understood my post. Are you going to require a burden of proof for anyone claiming to be transgendered just so they can go and hang out in the female restroom? All one has to do is claim they feel like a woman trapped in a man's body and, voila~ get their kink on in the ladies room.


What I am saying is that seems more like a theoretical problem than a real one. I am not saying that some guy dressing up as a woman just to get into women's restrooms is an impossibility, I am saying that it is unlikely. So, should we punish people with genuine issues because a few bad apples may abuse the system? That doesn't seem right. Furthermore, there is nothing preventing people from doing the implied predatory thing to people of their on gender. A man who wants to get his kicks by watching other males is prevented from doing this. In this case it is a well known person who seems unlikely to be faking it.

I am not claiming that the school handled it poorly.

Some places handle this issue by having most of the bathrooms being gendered, but then some of the bathrooms (single stall type) being non-gendered (one of my old unis had this. it's not impractical in a place as big as a university, but may be an impractical solution in a small place). This seemed like a good starting point, at least.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Some places handle this issue by having most of the bathrooms being gendered, but then some of the bathrooms (single stall type) being non-gendered (one of my old unis had this. it's not impractical in a place as big as a university, but may be an impractical solution in a small place). This seemed like a good starting point, at least.
That's commonly refereed to as a unisex disabled toilet. I wonder whether wheelchair bound trans/poly/pseudo/non-sexuals and all other variants of the above would use this toilet or demand a separate toilet?

I find it somewhat ironic that any race/creed/colour/sex would want to volunteer themselves for apartheid, which is what they are asking for in this case.

Oh well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@aidanjt

I know that gender is sometimes used to indicate perceived sex in contrast to biological sex. The two words are also commonly deployed with the same semantic payload and, in fact, "gender" can help to avoid ambiguity. "Sex" can mean "gender" or it can refer to a variety of trouserless acts which are the cornerstone of the catholic church. I tend to the use the two words interchangeably. It's usually clear from context what is meant; you can always ask if not.

Abuse of language is actually one of the things I object to with the transgenderistas. You are expected to say "transition" not "sex change" for example. F*ck that. People who try to control language usually have something to hide - gender tourism in this case.

aidanjt wrote:
Again you show your GID cluelessness. It isn't their 'unusual and unique biology which needs to be accepted' which is at issue here.


No that's exactly what it is. The fact is that what is commonly termed a male with a "female" brain is actually a normal, albeit unusual, male and should be accepted as such. We are imposing badly-defined terms on a situation which is not as black-and-white as we thought. Male/female gender is pretty black and white, except in rare cases of true hermaphroditism, but the diversity within these categories is wider than is traditionally thought.

If an individual makes a personal decision that they want to conform, that's fine, but they shouldn't have an expectation to conform placed upon them. They shouldn't be made to feel abnormal.

On the other hand, for people with normal biology, I strongly disagree with the abuse of medical treatments to indulge gender-tourism. An individual's distress may be real - OK - but that indicates some kind of psychological treatment not body-altering hormones and surgery.

I also object to transgender bigots incontinently throwing around accusations at anyone who dares to challenge the idea of gender tourism. That is what this thread was started to discuss, not people with genuine physical-medical issues.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bare asserting that it's black and white doesn't make it so. Do you seriously have nothing but no-true-Scotsman fallacies and personal incongruities as objections?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
No that's exactly what it is. The fact is that what is commonly termed a male with a "female" brain is actually a normal, albeit unusual, male and should be accepted as such. We are imposing badly-defined terms on a situation which is not as black-and-white as we thought. Male/female gender is pretty black and white, except in rare cases of true hermaphroditism, but the diversity within these categories is wider than is traditionally thought.

If you precluded your statement with "in my opinion," we could view at as a point of view, however, without it, it merely comes off as ego drivel defending your existing cognitive patterns.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biology is an observable fact and genetics is the sine qua non of biology. That's where you have to start, not hormones.

It's a kind of category error where the categories overlap more than we realised.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
richk449 wrote:
I am offended by your insistence that other people are doing it wrong, when "it" is living their life.

If someone has an unusual hormonal environment for their biological sex, and they wish to take hormone therapy in order to conform to a narrow definition of what their sex/gender should look like, that's OK but they shouldn't be pushed into it or made to feel "abnormal".

Who defines "unusual"? You? Of course nobody should be pushed into it - is someone here advocating that?



a functional human body defines 'unusual'. And yes, there is advocating - in this thread even.

richk449 wrote:

Quote:
On the other hand, men taking hormones to become like women, or vice versa, isn't a medical issue. It's a psychological one. Counselling, yes; hormones, no.

If someone wants to do X, and X doesn't affect you, then the proper response is "fine, go ahead". It doesn't matter what X is. Why you think it matters whether it is a "medical" issue is beyond me.


because it does affect him, you me. Like the asshole parents, creating costs. The health insurance systems are paying for it. So it affects him, you, me. People committing suicide because they got pressed into a polar gender scheme they feel they don't fit into are a high cost for the economy.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Biology is an observable fact and genetics is the sine qua non of biology. That's where you have to start, not hormones.

Err, hormones control many vital genes, so they're integral to genetics and GID. That's exactly why oestrogen hormone replacement therapy produces breasts, female body odour, and a feminine figure. The problem isn't with the biology and genetics, the problem is your lack of understanding about them. That, and bigotry. Smells like feminazi bullshit, to be honest.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where do hormones come from? Could it be information coded in genes...?

You have to start with genes because that's what natural selection works on. You could, for example, make the earth the origin point of the solar system but describing the motions of the sun and planets will get awfully complicated.

What you have described is a discussion between genes; they're using hormones to talk to each other. If you interrupt that process by fiddling with the hormonal message, sure, you can change the final instruction to build protein X or protein Y.

Remind me, what's that got to do with bigotry?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also what does all this have to do with the original post? It's interesting that the discussion has been sidelined into biology but nobody wants to attempt to answer the question: are people with normal biology who want to change sex delusional?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Also what does all this have to do with the original post? It's interesting that the discussion has been sidelined into biology but nobody wants to attempt to answer the question: are people with normal biology who want to change sex delusional?

The question itself stems from delusion that we could know, so at least we have pinpointed who is delusional for sure!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Where do hormones come from? Could it be information coded in genes...?

If you want to play chicken-or-the-egg, ultimately the mother, from where the egg originates. But chicken-or-the-egg is an irrelevant diversion. The endocrine system and mitosis are mutually cooperative as an integrated system.

mcgruff wrote:
You have to start with genes because that's what natural selection works on.

And without the hormones you wouldn't have had the functional traits which advanced inheritance. Genes, in and of themselves, do nothing and are worthless without the biomolecular mechanics which decode them and produce proteins and construct biological systems.

mcgruff wrote:
You could, for example, make the earth the origin point of the solar system but describing the motions of the sun and planets will get awfully complicated.

No, you couldn't, because the solar system doesn't do anything like that. Irrelevant analogy is irrelevant.

mcgruff wrote:
What you have described is a discussion between genes; they're using hormones to talk to each other. If you interrupt that process by fiddling with the hormonal message, sure, you can change the final instruction to build protein X or protein Y.

Genes don't talk. Hormones are the endocrine system switching genes and organ functions on and off according to the macro needs of the organism.

mcgruff wrote:
Remind me, what's that got to do with bigotry?

The bigotry is the handwaving objection for no actual reason other than you personally objecting to a medically prescribed treatment regime which you personally don't approve off, irrespective of the wishes of the patient, solely on the basis of you personally find it incongruent that 1 in 10,000 people could possibly have a legitimate brain dysfunction (i.e. not healthy neurological function, verified by fMRI) whereby they were born with a gender identity which is contrary to their biological sex, which has a serious psychological impact on the patient.

So no, they're not delusional. They have a legitimate medical dysfunction which needs remedied. And what you personally believe is completely irrelevant.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
The question itself stems from delusion that we could know, so at least we have pinpointed who is delusional for sure!


You believe there is no way to physically identify "transgendered" people?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
The bigotry is the handwaving objection for no actual reason
....


I've told you several times that I don't object to medical treatments which have some kind of medical justification. It's the collusion with gender tourism which I find unethical.

Are you going to answer the question? I'm very patient. Any time this year will do.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:

No that's exactly what it is. The fact is that what is commonly termed a male with a "female" brain is actually a normal, albeit unusual, male and should be accepted as such. We are imposing badly-defined terms on a situation which is not as black-and-white as we thought. Male/female gender is pretty black and white, except in rare cases of true hermaphroditism, but the diversity within these categories is wider than is traditionally thought.

If an individual makes a personal decision that they want to conform, that's fine, but they shouldn't have an expectation to conform placed upon them. They shouldn't be made to feel abnormal.


What you don't seem to grasp, is it isn't the body that determines gender, it is the brain... So, that "perfectly fine male body" (in my case) doesn't conform to my gender. While I'm capable of full sexual function, I cannot succeed in maintaining interest in sex as a male, even when it is with someone I deeply love and am attracted to. I'm simply incapable of performing as a man, so, outside of some non-traditional method of impregnating a woman, I'm not capable of reproduction anyway.

In fact, it was the complete inability to maintain an erection during sex which ultimately lead me to the conclusion that I had to stop denying reality, pretending that, if I just tried hard enough, I could be a man. Mentally and emotionally, I'm simply incapable of being male and performing as such during intimate situations. You can lecture me all you want about what you think you know about how transgendered brains should work, but you know approximately nothing. Yet, you'll sit there and lecture me about how much you think you know.

It's not a matter of sucking it up and toughing it out, it's a matter of "I'd rather be dead than to continue to endure something so drastically, unbearably wrong."
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:

I don't think you even understood my post. Are you going to require a burden of proof for anyone claiming to be transgendered just so they can go and hang out in the female restroom? All one has to do is claim they feel like a woman trapped in a man's body and, voila~ get their kink on in the ladies room.


What I am saying is that seems more like a theoretical problem than a real one. I am not saying that some guy dressing up as a woman just to get into women's restrooms is an impossibility, I am saying that it is unlikely.


They wouldn't even need to 'dress" like a woman. Just make the claim and there would be no way to prove the claim wrong... as it's based on the guy's subjective feelings.

juniper wrote:
So, should we punish people with genuine issues because a few bad apples may abuse the system?


There's no "punishment" when a cock pisses in the same room as all the other cocks must piss.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:

because it does affect him, you me. Like the asshole parents, creating costs. The health insurance systems are paying for it. So it affects him, you, me. People committing suicide because they got pressed into a polar gender scheme they feel they don't fit into are a high cost for the economy.


So, you just made an argument for doing away with socialized medicine... In fact, it's one of my favorite arguments against it - that is, because everyone else is paying, they deserve a right in saying what individuals can do.

The suicide rate for transgendered people that don't transition is roughly 1 in 3, some believe as high as 1 in 2 (it's hard to say since most people don't leave a note saying "btw, I killed myself because you and the rest of society couldn't accept that I'm TG"). The suicide rate post-transition is comparable to society in general and the rate post-op is lower than society in general.

Anyway, whom is likely to be more productive, and thus a net contributor to society, someone that is depressed and suicidal all the time because they don't see any point in living a life that they don't want, or someone that underwent a procedure which cures their depression, allowing them to feel comfortable in their own skin and be happy?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
mcgruff wrote:

No that's exactly what it is. The fact is that what is commonly termed a male with a "female" brain is actually a normal, albeit unusual, male and should be accepted as such. We are imposing badly-defined terms on a situation which is not as black-and-white as we thought. Male/female gender is pretty black and white, except in rare cases of true hermaphroditism, but the diversity within these categories is wider than is traditionally thought.

If an individual makes a personal decision that they want to conform, that's fine, but they shouldn't have an expectation to conform placed upon them. They shouldn't be made to feel abnormal.

In fact, it was the complete inability to maintain an erection during sex which ultimately lead me to the conclusion that I had to stop denying reality, pretending that, if I just tried hard enough, I could be a man. Mentally and emotionally, I'm simply incapable of being male and performing as such during intimate situations. You can lecture me all you want about what you think you know about how transgendered brains should work, but you know approximately nothing. Yet, you'll sit there and lecture me about how much you think you know.

It's not a matter of sucking it up and toughing it out, it's a matter of "I'd rather be dead than to continue to endure something so drastically, unbearably wrong."


So, if a man cannot maintain an erection during sex he's not a man? A man with erectile dysfunction is a female? should a man, self identified as a male, be considered a female if he prefers prostate stimulation or something else?

Those are not rhetorical questions, i genuinely am confused. :?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:


So, if a man cannot maintain an erection during sex he's not a man? A man with erectile dysfunction is a female? should a man, self identified as a male, be considered a female if he prefers prostate stimulation or something else?

Those are not rhetorical questions, i genuinely am confused. :?


In my case, the inability to maintain an erection (Z) stems from my severe dysphoria (A). If someone has erectile dysfunction due to another cause (B), it doesn't mean that they have a (that is A imples Z doesn't mean that B or Z imply A).

My point being, if mcgruff's argument is that "we shouldn't ruin our perfectly functional bodies," my body doesn't function perfectly anyway due to my dysphoria, so I'm not "ruining" anything.

It's also not a matter of embarking on "gender tourism," I'm not looking to take a tour of the full spectrum of genders, I know what I am and I need to bring my body in alignment with my brain (since, at this time, there is no way to rewire the brain to identify as my body's sex). If it was just a matter of taking some pills or talking to a therapist for a year or two or simply donning the clothes we feel comfortable in, we'd already be doing that to fix us. The simple truth is, most of us reach a point in our life where we feel we must die since we can no longer endure the misalignment... that death can come in one of two forms, suicide, or transitioning so we can live the life that corresponds to our internal gender.

It seems that quite a few people here are of the authoritarian mindset that we can, essentially, "just pray the gay away," so to speak. It doesn't work like that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
...gender tourism which I find unethical.

WTF does that have to do with anything discussed here?

mcgruff wrote:
Are you going to answer the question?

Answer what question?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

noyb wrote:
(since, at this time, there is no way to rewire the brain to identify as my body's sex).

And it would be beyond extremely ethically dubious to go rewiring a personality just to be more socially acceptable anyway.
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