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Prenj
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
noyb wrote:
(since, at this time, there is no way to rewire the brain to identify as my body's sex).

And it would be beyond extremely ethically dubious to go rewiring a personality just to be more socially acceptable anyway.

And whos to say it would stop there? People are already rewired into consumers, and look at the mess. If people view themselves as members of opposite sex and want to express it, by all means, go ahead. The only scary part is if this is part of something else, some personality/trauma/whatever manifest which should be screen by a psychologist, hence more research is needed to get a nuanced view of the subject beyond the dogmatic viewpoints of immature members of current society.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
. . . like a boy who thinks he's a girl who likes girls), which I'm sure are out there too . . .


I know one. Yes, they do exist.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Change yourself or change the world is a problem everybody has to face, not just transgenderites. Me, I always try to change the world.

On behalf of the world, please give us a break, and spend some time thinking about whether you need to change yourself.


++

I had such a hysterical laughing fit when I read that the crime dog is aware and proud that he always tries to change the world instead of personally growing and improving. Just incredible the shit that will come out of some peoples mouths. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that saw fault in that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, back to the conversation of bathrooms.

I really think we are long overdue on getting rid of gender-specific bathrooms and just having one huge bathroom. It would save space, building materials, time, and money. You could cut into a little of that money savings by making the stalls more secure so that there isn't really any "peaking" or danger above and beyond the current system.

Problem: solved.

As for the crime dog, what you seem to illustrate is that you are incapable of understanding that all of reality as we experience it is filtered through our own perceptions. There is simply no way to ever escape that fact. If you were somehow able to wrap your brain around that fact, you might start to loosen up a little in some areas.

Yes, I believe that transgendered people are experiencing something real. I do not believe them to be delusional. I believe that science hasn't yet documented what is going on within the brain/mind that causes this.

One individual I know that does not identify with her biological sex is the sole survivor of triplets, she consumed the other two triplets in the womb and carries parts of them within her. I don't think it is hard to imagine in a scenario like that how one might get to a different conclusion than a more "normal" growth process in utero.

I've been really surprised in reading this thread to see the various positions that I find at odds with my understanding of many active OTW posters. That reads very awkwardly to me, what I'm trying to say is that many of you really surprised me with your responses, I would have guessed very differently for most people posting.

It does seem to me that those people that don't understand transgendered people haven't ever gotten to know one. Go figure. So, like pretty much anything else, why don't you keep your uninformed opinions to yourselves. No one wants to hear your opinion on something you know next to nothing about.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the hard part would be to find an informed opinion for most of the threads after the first few replies. It's the YouTube comment syndrome where for any given video, after about comment #10 there will be a shift to a irrelevant subject. It's normally Nazi Germany vs Allies or America vs World.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:

I've been really surprised in reading this thread to see the various positions that I find at odds with my understanding of many active OTW posters. That reads very awkwardly to me, what I'm trying to say is that many of you really surprised me with your responses, I would have guessed very differently for most people posting.

It does seem to me that those people that don't understand transgendered people haven't ever gotten to know one. Go figure. So, like pretty much anything else, why don't you keep your uninformed opinions to yourselves. No one wants to hear your opinion on something you know next to nothing about.


In my experience, there are a LOT of very vocally opinionated people that desire to express their opinion, but whom will still respect you even if you do something contrary to it... Meanwhile, those that constantly demand tolerance are often the first to try to shut down people that disagree with their world view.

Of my real life friends that know about me, two of the most supportive are born again christians... and one of the most vocally against is a lesbian. One of the local feminist groups chased out an intersexed friend of my aunt's (born a true hermaphrodite, surgically assigned and raised male, internally identified as female and sought reassignment around age 50).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
pjp wrote:
I never claimed a homosexual thought their gender was different than it outwardly appears.


What was your point? You're not making any sense. Gender identity does not map to sexual preference so how could sexual preference, as you put it, "be exactly where gender identity is located".
You're almost there. What "decides" sexual preference? It isn't a vast gay conspiracy recruiting the unwilling. It isn't a choice. It isn't a "lifestyle."
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
noyb wrote:
(since, at this time, there is no way to rewire the brain to identify as my body's sex).

And it would be beyond extremely ethically dubious to go rewiring a personality just to be more socially acceptable anyway.
No it wouldn't. If you were to be born with a sixth finger, it wouldn't be in the slightest bit "ethically dubious" to fix it (assuming some kind of gene therapy existed to fix it, etc.). If cerebral palsy could be identified early enough to fix, it wouldn't be at all "ethically dubious" to fix it. If gender identity issues and homosexuality turn out to be "birth defects", why would it be "ethically dubious" to correct them? It wouldn't.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
No it wouldn't. If you were to be born with a sixth finger, it wouldn't be in the slightest bit "ethically dubious" to fix it (assuming some kind of gene therapy existed to fix it, etc.). If cerebral palsy could be identified early enough to fix, it wouldn't be at all "ethically dubious" to fix it. If gender identity issues and homosexuality turn out to be "birth defects", why would it be "ethically dubious" to correct them? It wouldn't.

We're not talking about lopping off a superfluous pinky or any other cosmetic or physically disease, we're talking about fucking around with the very fundamental properties of what makes you, you, as a human being. If we start messing around with people's brains to make them more socially acceptable wrt gender or sexual orientation, what do we 'fix' in your brain next? That you're combative, not submissive enough to authority, not pious enough? Calling it a slippery slope would be the understatement of the entire expanse of human history.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
I think the hard part would be to find an informed opinion for most of the threads after the first few replies. It's the YouTube comment syndrome where for any given video, after about comment #10 there will be a shift to a irrelevant subject. It's normally Nazi Germany vs Allies or America vs World.

Is that after comments #1-10 where they blame Zionist Jews and their NWO global conspiracy?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
pjp wrote:
No it wouldn't. If you were to be born with a sixth finger, it wouldn't be in the slightest bit "ethically dubious" to fix it (assuming some kind of gene therapy existed to fix it, etc.). If cerebral palsy could be identified early enough to fix, it wouldn't be at all "ethically dubious" to fix it. If gender identity issues and homosexuality turn out to be "birth defects", why would it be "ethically dubious" to correct them? It wouldn't.

We're not talking about lopping off a superfluous pinky or any other cosmetic or physically disease, we're talking about fucking around with the very fundamental properties of what makes you, you, as a human being. If we start messing around with people's brains to make them more socially acceptable wrt gender or sexual orientation, what do we 'fix' in your brain next? That you're combative, not submissive enough to authority, not pious enough? Calling it a slippery slope would be the understatement of the entire expanse of human history.


Wait, so we should leave people with schizophrenia alone, because that's one of the properties that make them an individual human being? How do we determine that to fix GID == sex reassignment therapy/surgery/hormones and schizophrenia == antipsycotics? I guess my confusion is this: if Person A has gender dysphoria and we accept it is a brain issue, why is it preferable to treat it by doing what Person A wants/feels-is-right and not something else?

ps: @noyb: the question to you would be "if there was a way to treat(for a lack of a better term) gender dysphoria, would you consider that or is reassignment the only solution?"
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
We're not talking about lopping off a superfluous pinky or any other cosmetic or physically disease
I used readily understandable examples of birth defects to make a point. I'm not referring to changing eye color or genetically engineering a super athlete. That's where the slope is, not correcting birth defects.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
So, back to the conversation of bathrooms.

I really think we are long overdue on getting rid of gender-specific bathrooms and just having one huge bathroom. It would save space, building materials, time, and money. You could cut into a little of that money savings by making the stalls more secure so that there isn't really any "peaking" or danger above and beyond the current system.

Problem: solved.


I'd prefer just making a bunch of individual little single occupancy restrooms.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
I'd prefer just making a bunch of individual little single occupancy restrooms.
++
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
Wait, so we should leave people with schizophrenia alone, because that's one of the properties that make them an individual human being? How do we determine that to fix GID == sex reassignment therapy/surgery/hormones and schizophrenia == antipsycotics? I guess my confusion is this: if Person A has gender dysphoria and we accept it is a brain issue, why is it preferable to treat it by doing what Person A wants/feels-is-right and not something else?

ps: @noyb: the question to you would be "if there was a way to treat(for a lack of a better term) gender dysphoria, would you consider that or is reassignment the only solution?"

Just shows that you don't know much about the subject. We can actually measure schizophrenia, that much we know. We know very little about gender identity. So thread lightly.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
Wait, so we should leave people with schizophrenia alone, because that's one of the properties that make them an individual human being? How do we determine that to fix GID == sex reassignment therapy/surgery/hormones and schizophrenia == antipsycotics? I guess my confusion is this: if Person A has gender dysphoria and we accept it is a brain issue, why is it preferable to treat it by doing what Person A wants/feels-is-right and not something else?

ps: @noyb: the question to you would be "if there was a way to treat(for a lack of a better term) gender dysphoria, would you consider that or is reassignment the only solution?"

Just shows that you don't know much about the subject. We can actually measure schizophrenia, that much we know. We know very little about gender identity. So thread lightly.


I don't, thus my questions.

About the bold part, "we" as in "us here in the forum" or "we" as in humans? if it is the latter, that just confuses me more, how can we have treatment for something we know very little about?

PS: I don't get the "so thread lightly" comment, i don't think i'm being disrespectful/dismissive/agressive if that's what you mean by it. If, on the other hand, just asking questions is considered offensive, i guess i can just fuck off, since any subject that can't stand questions reeks of dogma to me and i want none of that.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:

ps: @noyb: the question to you would be "if there was a way to treat(for a lack of a better term) gender dysphoria, would you consider that or is reassignment the only solution?"


I would consider whatever treatments are available to me, taking into account the severity, probability of a positive outcome, opportunity costs, etc. With that in mind, today, there is precisely one workable treatment for someone that is trans (and I'm all for the therapy requirements to ensure they need that treatment).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:

because it does affect him, you me. Like the asshole parents, creating costs. The health insurance systems are paying for it. So it affects him, you, me. People committing suicide because they got pressed into a polar gender scheme they feel they don't fit into are a high cost for the economy.


so? What should be done about them? Telling them to fuck off and deal with their gender problems is just going to exacerbate things like depression. Frankly, I don't see the trans block being the big drag on the economy you are suggesting they are, and it certainly isn't by choice (like most health issues). I do like to keep up with economic news, and I don't recall the Wall Street Journal talking about this transgendered scourge bringing down economies. The old are the largest block (and getting larger) of people costing the health care system money, followed by the obese and women of child bearing age. I don't get your point.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:

They wouldn't even need to 'dress" like a woman. Just make the claim and there would be no way to prove the claim wrong... as it's based on the guy's subjective feelings.


someone obviously taking the piss isn't the target. we are talking about people genuinely in the midst of transitioning, not some guy off the street who wants to pee in the girls bathroom.

Muso wrote:

There's no "punishment" when a cock pisses in the same room as all the other cocks must piss.


so, a MTF in the midst of transitioning, dressed like a woman and trying to live as a woman, is forced to go in a male bathroom because he/she has a penis. Sounds like punishment to me. Also, it certain parts of the world, sounds rather unsafe (trans bashings do happen).

But I am willing to be proven wrong. if we let trans people use the other toilets and suddenly every bathroom has a queue of hairy men with drool dripping from their chin trying to use this as a reason to peek into women's restrooms (or the opposite), I am happy to reevaluate the whole thing. As I said, I don't see your dystopic scenario happening.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:

They wouldn't even need to 'dress" like a woman. Just make the claim and there would be no way to prove the claim wrong... as it's based on the guy's subjective feelings.


someone obviously taking the piss isn't the target. we are talking about people genuinely in the midst of transitioning, not some guy off the street who wants to pee in the girls bathroom.

but he has a point. how do you quantify the difference between someone taking the piss? this stinks of being too subjective
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Muso wrote:
I'd prefer just making a bunch of individual little single occupancy restrooms.
++


That's essentially what I was saying, just with common to all sinks, mirrors, soaps, paper-towels, etc. So one big room to contain all the little single occupancy rooms, with real full-sized solid doors on each single occupancy room.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GabrielYYZ wrote:
I don't, thus my questions.

About the bold part, "we" as in "us here in the forum" or "we" as in humans? if it is the latter, that just confuses me more, how can we have treatment for something we know very little about?

PS: I don't get the "so thread lightly" comment, i don't think i'm being disrespectful/dismissive/agressive if that's what you mean by it. If, on the other hand, just asking questions is considered offensive, i guess i can just fuck off, since any subject that can't stand questions reeks of dogma to me and i want none of that.

Why is this so dogmatic to you btw? Transgendered people have existed since humanity existed, before we even knew the word "psychology". Old cultures had traditional names for such people, they accomodated them within the society and everything. It is only at odds with abrahamic monotheists, and the gap between your cultural programming and the reality of that fact is so big you need PROOF to accept it. How about you offer us PROOF that whatever your culture taught you was true?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
pjp wrote:
Muso wrote:
I'd prefer just making a bunch of individual little single occupancy restrooms.
++


That's essentially what I was saying, just with common to all sinks, mirrors, soaps, paper-towels, etc. So one big room to contain all the little single occupancy rooms, with real full-sized solid doors on each single occupancy room.

Sounds very communist. McGuff should approve.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
juniper wrote:
Muso wrote:

They wouldn't even need to 'dress" like a woman. Just make the claim and there would be no way to prove the claim wrong... as it's based on the guy's subjective feelings.


someone obviously taking the piss isn't the target. we are talking about people genuinely in the midst of transitioning, not some guy off the street who wants to pee in the girls bathroom.

but he has a point. how do you quantify the difference between someone taking the piss? this stinks of being too subjective


you don't just walk off the street and credibly claim you are in transition with no effort. as I said, I am willing to see if a problem is created before I start solving it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
GabrielYYZ wrote:
I don't, thus my questions.

About the bold part, "we" as in "us here in the forum" or "we" as in humans? if it is the latter, that just confuses me more, how can we have treatment for something we know very little about?

PS: I don't get the "so thread lightly" comment, i don't think i'm being disrespectful/dismissive/agressive if that's what you mean by it. If, on the other hand, just asking questions is considered offensive, i guess i can just fuck off, since any subject that can't stand questions reeks of dogma to me and i want none of that.

Why is this so dogmatic to you btw? Transgendered people have existed since humanity existed, before we even knew the word "psychology". Old cultures had traditional names for such people, they accomodated them within the society and everything. It is only at odds with abrahamic monotheists, and the gap between your cultural programming and the reality of that fact is so big you need PROOF to accept it. How about you offer us PROOF that whatever your culture taught you was true?


from what I can tell he is genuinely asking questions. I don't think he is coming down on one side or the other.
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