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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:22 pm    Post subject: linux philosophy Reply with quote

This 'gentoo' teach a man to fish philosophy is flawed to the core. The man is starving, take em to mc donalds, get him a mc fish, give him a fishing pole, lures, a tackle box, and some fishing magazines. one day when you have no fish, and are starving, they may just get you back. the "read the manual" responses are a waste of breath, and time with out pointing to relevant manuals to read, or commands to execute to extract information from.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a man page somewhere that would explain this more thoroughly to you.

- John
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, John. You made my day. There is no better way to answer this question. :lol:
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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

statement.

"it's a big club and you ain't in it" -George Carlin
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@666threesixes666, in the long run, spoon feeding Gentoo doesn't work very well. You might even be doing the people you're trying to help a disservice. That said, nobody's going to stop you if you want to, but you're not going to get any traction at all berating others for their refusal to do so. In fact, it's borderline trolling.

- John
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kurly
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
In fact, it's borderline trolling.

Borderline? I think it pretty well crosses the line. I've been wondering when someone was going to do/say something about it again.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be right. However, the reason I called it borderline is that I believe he honestly wants to help, but just doesn't get it...(hopefully) yet.

- John
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: linux philosophy Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
take em to mc donalds

Who's gonna pay for that?

What will happen is, you'll get heartily sick of stupid people with the same old stupid questions, and constants requests for money to buy McShakes and burgers, which they then don't even want to share with you.

Unless you're Jesus, of course. Are you? Maybe the username is just to put people off the scent.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: linux philosophy Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
Unless you're Jesus, of course. Are you? Maybe the username is just to put people off the scent.

Lol.
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grey_dot
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux philosophy is about forking or rewriting from scratch every piece of software without actually getting things done. I'm serious. Look at ifconfig for example - in BSD world you have a single ifconfig binary which allows to control almost every aspect of the network interface. I can even setup wifi+wpa connection using only ifconfig in OpenBSD. On the other hand in linux world we have almost abandoned ifconfig, fancy yet retarded iproute2, iwconfig, brconfig, wtfconfig, etc, and they all suck. I really hate this thing in linux people.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666,

If handing out fish is your way of helping, nobody here will stand in your way. Most users come to Gentoo because they want to understand how something works. Thats best achieved by providing aids to understanding, which is not the same thing as providing a solution to the immediate problem.

Pointing to man pages saves quoting them in posts or writing them out again. man is just one of many useful references to spread understanding.
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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not handing out fish, emerge is. this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability.
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Funtoo Linux - baselayout 2.2.0
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http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ku-vxIb3L._SL1500_.jpg
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/666threesixes666
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability.

I don't see a problem there
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Thats best achieved by providing aids to understanding, which is not the same thing as providing a solution to the immediate problem.

Because then the helpee will need to work and work...
Enables self-consciousness!

:lol: Pardon me, I just could not resist.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
... this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability


There are some mutually exclusive aims there. That means Gentoo has to make some compromises.
In my view, its about right. I freely accept that others have different opinions about what is a good compromise.

That explains why
a) there are so many Linux distros
b) gentoo is not for everyone

Feel free to make Gentoo into something its not (yet) ... open your own overlay, hack away there on top of the portage tree.
If you make your 666threesixes666 overlay public, you might even find others to join and reshape Gentoo.

You might even get the opportunity to add your ebuilds to the official portage tree.

@aCOSwt,

:)
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
I think there's a man page somewhere that would explain this more thoroughly to you.


/usr/src/linux/Documentation/ManagementStyle

666threesixes666 wrote:
i'm not handing out fish, emerge is. this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability.


http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml --> "configurability", "about any application or need" (aka "choice")
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml --> "flexibility", "pleasantly" and "joy" (aka "maintainability")


Last edited by TomWij on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grey_dot wrote:
Linux philosophy is about forking or rewriting from scratch every piece of software without actually getting things done. I'm serious
... they all suck. I really hate this thing in linux people.

Then go and use something else, and save all of us from your whining. Why exactly anyone should work on something because you think it matters is beyond me.

Personally I'm quite happy for people to try new implementations, so long as they don't confuse "new" with "good".
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
i'm not handing out fish, emerge is. this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability.

First you want to "get him a mc fish"; now you're complaining because emerge is giving out fish? Make your mind up.
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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not whining, im just explaining where im coming from, and why. people are coming at me with flawed doctrines that are self conflicting. i like the mc fish.... i like being able to remove tartar too if im in that kind of mood for the day. @ steveL there is an edit button so you could attack me too in the same post. :D i mean please do, ill try to respond in an epic evade. @ admins can you plz make a link for "stage3-arch-latest" for my wiki writings so i can have a link that does not move and need updating every time stage3 is changed plz.
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cat /etc/*-release
Funtoo Linux - baselayout 2.2.0
consider this warning no. 1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ku-vxIb3L._SL1500_.jpg
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/666threesixes666
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Personally I'm quite happy for people to try new implementations, so long as they don't confuse "new" with "good".

I agree.
Then, adding to this : So long as they don't confuse "mine" with "best",
and I think I could even feel grateful.
Of course, this is less frequent.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
@ admins can you plz make a link for "stage3-arch-latest" for my wiki writings so i can have a link that does not move and need updating every time stage3 is changed plz.
I think not. You'll just have to teach them to... Wait. What was that word? It's on the tip of my tongue. No...wait. Give me a minute... :wink:

- John
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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why not jrg, there was a symlink to latest portage before it was migrated to emerge-webrsync... id like to be able to give a wget direct to drive being installed to instead of "download to ~/Downloads then move"
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cat /etc/*-release
Funtoo Linux - baselayout 2.2.0
consider this warning no. 1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ku-vxIb3L._SL1500_.jpg
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/666threesixes666
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just couldn't resist, really. :wink: Forum Admins don't control this. You can ping Release Engineering on IRC at #gentoo-releng (might be #gentoo-infra, but releng will send you in the right direction) and, if they're amenable, tell 'em you're going to open a bug with the request for formal tracking.

However, this may be a bad idea. One of the questions we sometimes ask while troubleshooting some installation issues is, "What exact tarball did you download?" If there's a "latest" symlink, then this interferes with troubleshooting as the Noob we're asking won't know. You might really, sincerely, want to consider teaching your Wiki readers to fish for the latest file.

- John
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666threesixes666
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kernel.org gave me a method to do "fetchlatestlinux" & wraps uname -a..... as in i suggest move "date stage3 packaged" to a file... specifically append to /etc/gentoo-release (where that information belongs)

Code:
mkultra@mksrv ~ $ cat /etc/gentoo-release
Gentoo Base System release 2.2

to

Code:

Gentoo Base System release 2.2
stage3-amd64-20130523


as the handbook says "yes, its ok to delete the stage3 now" before even merging anything of use, completely negating your post. (and i am not doing this to be disrespectful)

ref http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?part=1&chap=11

&& reward wrong behavior, punish correct... i give stove and frying pan and pole and bait.... result

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7333790.html#7333790

whats wrong with tarball package management? portage depends on it, why denote it as DANGEROUS, or INCORRECT?

ready for correct logic on that situation? portage has a critical design flaw where it can not track externally compiled packages, or user modifications to /etc configuration files. portage wants to revert back to "broken" and "inferior" default configs. even odd versions svn git etc give exact version number when invoked with --version. portage should be able to extract information and be more flexible and more powerful than it already is, and trace back flaws in builds to hand built packages if they are depended upon by something else thats breaking from "package.provided."

just thinking aloud....
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cat /etc/*-release
Funtoo Linux - baselayout 2.2.0
consider this warning no. 1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Ku-vxIb3L._SL1500_.jpg
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/666threesixes666
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TomWij
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

666threesixes666 wrote:
whats wrong with tarball package management?


What's right with tarballs? Why do you call it package management while it isn't? If there is something managed, what's managed here exactly?

666threesixes666 wrote:
portage depends on it, why denote it as DANGEROUS, or INCORRECT?


Portage does a lot more, it manages it.

666threesixes666 wrote:
portage has a critical design flaw where it can not track externally compiled packages


How would it be able to do that? Why would it need to be able to do that? You just don't externally compile packages that result in a confusing system state.

666threesixes666 wrote:
, or user modifications to /etc configuration files.


Portage keeps track of modifications to config files with CONFIG_PROTECT, which /etc is a part of; that's why you need to run dispatch-conf or etc-update to merge the changes.

Furthermore, since everything has checksums, it even is aware to modifications made to the file it installs; try `qcheck ...` from app-portage/portage-utils

666threesixes666 wrote:
portage wants to revert back to "broken" and "inferior" default configs.


Nope, it is showing you the default config so you can merge any new changes from upstream.

666threesixes666 wrote:
even odd versions svn git etc give exact version number when invoked with --version.


Cool, but it's not always --version.

666threesixes666 wrote:
portage should be able to extract information


Feel free to write a program that does this for a LFS system with hundreds of packages; 1) not every program has a version parameter, 2) the parameter is not always the same, 3) the output is not always the same.

666threesixes666 wrote:
and be more flexible and more powerful than it already is, and trace back flaws in builds to hand built packages if they are depended upon by something else thats breaking from "package.provided."


Portage is flexible and powerful if you don't introduce inflexible matters like uncertainty or unpowerful matters like flaws in hand built packages.
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