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Navar
Guru
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 353
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 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Tomwij wrote: | | Your post goes further than that; you're making arguments to me where there are none, literally shoving words down my throat (see further in this response, eg. "opponents") as well as resort to name calling (eg. "Pulseaudio developer"), that is certainly an offense. If you didn't want to offend me, then please clearly state out so because you're singling me out for no good reason; I'm merely here to help, and not to be annoyed by responses that come over as disrespectful. |
I wasn't out to offend you nor were there any words shoved, but I did take offense at the callous manner you regarded those who questioned you, often twisting what they stated--otherwise I wouldn't have cared to respond. Questioning direct assertions you made is not shoving words, lest I misquote and/or misparaphrase you to twist and change meaning to suit which is never my intention. Off from that you make it into the assumption that we(I) misunderstood. Fine, but that is where the reference came that you were sounding like another and to please reconsider your responses. Other than trying to avoid being affected by it, this is not my fight. There is a plethora of debate on this matter elsewhere for many to see if they so choose and I certainly wouldn't recommend the opinionated blogs. Some good healthy discussions on the mailing lists, some not so much, but what remains true is I've seen no evidence of either side yet proving a one size fits all.
This thread went from sincere aid->discussion->debate. Far too much arguing for the sake of arguing presented all black and white, no middle ground, with the end user perhaps becoming the smallest factor. I found your consideration of others opinions versus yours very lacking. Eventually that will indeed make a lot of people angry if the situation (ffmpeg, not you/I) does not improve. If you had wanted to quietly avoid all this, that second statement of yours I quoted in my original reply to you hits the mark ("[...]the new upstream[...]ffmpeg is merely pulling[...]"). But, again, what eventually brought me in here to respond further was your repeated handling of others during your debate.
The central theme and causation of this thread is the current teeter totter setup of virtual/ffmpeg*. Decisions that were made in what appears to remain over-speculation and favoritism. This was not my understanding of the philosophy behind Gentoo. Other developers stated their unease over this on the mailing lists as well, so at least I'm not alone.
"Opponent(s)" is a term often given to respective challengers in a debate. Your real argument is that you disagree you've been debating. Essentially we can stop here.
There was no ad hominem from me or, in particular, name calling. The overuse of such begins to show illogical fallacy. In particular, I was trying to draw your attention towards your dismissiveness of others (which is disrespect) using that too often as the excuse. Pointing out a similarity in the tone, bias and direction of your responses is not name calling, in fact, a name wasn't even mentioned. I didn't come here looking for seeing others blood boiling, to again paraphrase you. This is chiding your opponent/challenger/individual you disagree with/whatever instead of helping them see your side. Which is really just stoking the fire further.
To presume people, particularly end users, will not end up becoming ardent about these issues is absurd as history and common sense continue to show.
Counter argue again if you feel you must, otherwise I'm done rehashing this.
Respectfully,
_________________
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Counter argue again if you feel you must, otherwise I'm done rehashing this. |
I'm tired of explaining why your posts do not reflect reality and as I said I don't want to debate; so, instead I will give you an actual rehash of this thread (meant to be read side-by-side):
My comment 1: Support.
My comment 2: Overly use of links as I am reflecting upstream, clear statements that I do not favor any side and that you are free to choose yours.
Response to my comment 2 by mv: No explanation of why my conclusion is strange; makes a clearly sided argument, "libav childishly".
My comment 3: Reflection of his comment, no preference or side picked whatsoever.
Response to my comment 3 by mv: Clarification of it being "childish". Statements in the middle of his post that don't match with S(R)E theory. Last paragraph annoyance kicks in, asking me if I see a "logical mistake" which I don't since he gave no explanation in his response to comment 2.
My comment 4: S(R)E theory makes me aware of the indications of something being and unmaintainable ffmpeg shows enough sides to call it as such, this is about the only argument (though it is based on theory, so not really an argument); he earlier ditched it away as "an early excuse" without explaining why it maintainable. Clearly stated that I can't even test libav, so how can I advocate it; explicit quote: "I'm still using ffmpeg-1.0.7 fine today, there's nothing wrong with that version to me; I'm just skeptical about what the future will bring, like newer ffmpeg versions being broken because of audio issues."
Response to my comment 4 by mv: Makes a reference to that refactoring for the sake of refactoring, I however see no such indication; therefore I point out the opposite end "no refactoring" so he can explain himself. "OMG. No comment anymore." clearly doesn't make him want to explain himself, therefore I am still aware of any mistake which I may have made.
My comment 5: Further clarifications, no mentions of either side. I assume he agrees with me.
Response to my comment 5 by mv: Does not appear to see the needs for refactoring and maintenance as per S(R)E theory; accusations were made, though I did not "claim" and "destroy", in fact anything in this thread won't negatively affect the project he sides for. Again points out logical mistakes without actually pointing at them
My comment 6: Further clarifications because of missing S(R)E theory; ditch away the accusation, reflect his last sentence.
My comment 7 reflecting the other person: Truth: "You've asked for a clarification and justification, therefore this is not propaganda; I'm explaining Gentoo's new default and run media-video/ffmpeg myself... Don't crawl back now by twisting your own words.  "
And I'll stop right here, the rest of the comments continue in this manner; arguments being thrown at me, further explations from me with barely any ffmpeg and libav mentions and I show no clear side for either of both except for the fact that I am running ffmpeg and may or may not consider to switch depending on the future. I sincerely do not see what exactly you are accusing me of in your response, neither do I see much truth in the last comments made by mv; since he could not explain his truth, he walked away which was a good thing to do (instead of arguing for the sake of arguing and making accusations; note that I do not such thing, as I am merely giving explanations). But then, weeks later, I get accused again (which may not be your intention). I'm done rehashing it, goodbye and thanks for all the fish. |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Navar wrote: | | I found your consideration of others opinions versus yours very lacking. |
Give it up: Discussion with TomWij makes no sense.
He claims he favors no side but simultaneously claims that libav is the upstream now.
He makes many similar logical contradictions like not distinguishing between cause and effect (Debian and Gentoo had no other choice than declaring libav upstream because Debian and Gentoo have already declared libav as upstream) etc. After I pointed some of the logical mistakes out to him, he is not able to understand them (or pretends so) and just repeats them. He even interprets the deserved reply "OMG" to his mistakes as a weakness of me. In my real life, I unfortunately sometimes have to do with students who are unable to get the simplest first-order logic conclusions correct; I do not want to teach in my spare time.
As typical for such students, he starts throwing buzzwords, trying to make me appear incompetent by even raising monetary considerations of some economist a "theory" (as if anybody had mentioned any doubts that it is economically cheaper to maintain a program which has most functionality removed) while he himself is unable (or as he claims uninterested) to explain his buzzwords.
I stopped to reply to him in this thread, because I have no interest in a nonsense discussion about buzzwords of economy or why it is a bad idea if developers of free software think that their goal should be economical efficiency instead of featureful programs - unfortunately everybody can see to what this leads in all recent horrible software cripplings which make linux less and less a usable system.
What makes me angry is that this guy is now talking bad about me behind my back by discussing indirectly about me, twisting my words. So I think I also have the right to indirectly talk about him, although this is really not my style. I really do not want such a discussion, but I also do not want to be talked bad behind my back.
Please, lock this thread! |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | Navar wrote: | | I found your consideration of others opinions versus yours very lacking. |
Discussion with TomWij makes no sense. He claims he favors no side but simultaneously claims that libav is the upstream now. ... He even interprets the deserved reply "OMG" to his mistakes as a weakness of me. ... As typical for such students, he starts throwing buzzwords, trying to make me appear incompetent by even raising monetary considerations of some economist a "theory" ... while he himself is unable ... to explain his buzzwords. ... no interest in a nonsense discussion about buzzwords of economy or why it is a bad idea if developers of free software think that their goal should be economical efficiency instead of featureful programs - unfortunately everybody can see to what this leads in all recent horrible software cripplings which make linux less and less a usable system. What makes me angry is that this guy is now talking bad about me behind my back by discussing indirectly about me, twisting my words. So I think I also have the right to indirectly talk about him, although this is really not my style. I really do not want such a discussion, but I also do not want to be talked bad behind my back. Please, lock this thread! |
That's not my claim at all, but the claim as made in the blogs by others than me; which I have shown in my previous response. I'm reflecting the thread in the context of that I do not choose a particular side and that I do not want a discussion, not to reflect you. Of course I do not understand logical mistakes that you do not clarify upon request. Why do you resort to irrelevant teaching efforts when asked for clarifications? Please be clear, stop making assumptions about me...
Indirectly talking about me is definitely not constructive, you wouldn't want someone to do the same about you; what are you exactly tring to reach with this? Why? These mentions you make are absolutely all your thoughts; but from my point of view and as demonstrated and explained before, none of it is true in my eyes. Please, follow the forum guidelines, the Gentoo discussion forums are no place for this, we can move this to OtW, perhaps lock it and stop this here right now; if you didn't make yet another reply not clarifying yourself or the reply you did now, you wouldn't have made yourself so upset by this point. What exactly are you upset about? The discussion making no sense since you are not willing to clarify yourself and make assumptions? Because yes, my confused responses that request for clarifications and posts that clarify that I do not do what you assume are a result of yours. Again; please be clear, stop making assumptions about me...
This post and any previous I made were in good faith, I am not bothered with you or Nevar in any way and don't think you, Nevar or I did anything bad; I just don't see this discussion I unwantedly became a part of going anywhere and it should stop. Seriously, if I really wanted to claim it to be a new upstream based on personal opinion, which I can't and won't since that would not reflect them; this thread would have been very different than me stating the opposite. The only moment I've used it, was to test the new handbrake package to compile against it; nothing more.
Please consider to read that post that you think talks bad about you from my point of view; at one point I've considered quitting these forums as this is not what I want as a response to support, but quitting on its own would help nobody either. So, instead, here are my very last words for this thread:
Whatever unintendedly upset any of you, I'm sincerely sorry! |
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mv
Watchman
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 6747
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| TomWij wrote: | | Indirectly talking about me is definitely not constructive, you wouldn't want someone to do the same about you |
Exactly: You started this indirect discussion, and I reacted on it in the same way. I really have no interest to continue such kind of discussion.
I still suggest to lock this thread - all technical facts have been exchanged. |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| mv wrote: | | You started this |
Stop accusing me, say sorry instead. I did not, it is an objective explanation based on the blog posts in response to Ant P's questions; I did not start any discussion and have no interest in doing so when I am merely here to support and explain. |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Please stop namedropping random users in an attempt to further perpetuate this bullshit you've drawn out to three pages already. You're not going to win any friends when you respond to accusations of slimy doublespeak by wearing them with pride.
Also your "developer" status does not equal "untouchable", so stop crying to the moderators when you fail to get your way or I'll start making a case to them for sending you the way of ciaranm.
At the very least, this thread is too long, too off topic, and too argumentative to be allowed to be bumped to the top of the search results by continuation. At worst, there are multiple guidelines violations, principally in the ream of civility. So, locked to allow the slow process of necrotization to continue. − JRG |
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