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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that it definitely appears to be in a "growing pains" stage of development, which is why it seems scary so many seem interested in it (distro level).

I'm assuming at some point I'll encountered it in a distro that uses it, which is fine.

Solaris switched to SMF, which is useful, and has some niceties, but adds a layer of complexity. It's main use seems to be dependencies, which is nice, but it excessively obfuscates everything. After adjusting to the initial discomfort of change, I still think it was unnecessary. Of course, it uses XML and puts stuff in too many different places (IIRC, that's a general complaint some have said of Solaris, though mostly I don't encounter it).
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xml is for machines, not people.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. And when you create an environment relying on XML which also requires people to troubleshoot, it just makes it needlessly more difficult.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some core gnome 3.8 ebuilds now have a hard dependency on systemd. It seems that the devs decided to give up trying to make gnome 3.8 work without systemd. This will force some people to migrate to systemd which might help improve the situation with it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ggeeoo wrote:
Some core gnome 3.8 ebuilds now have a hard dependency on systemd. It seems that the devs decided to give up trying to make gnome 3.8 work without systemd. This will force some people to migrate to systemd which might help improve the situation with it.
:rotflmao:

So systemd effectively assimilated GNOME.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
ggeeoo wrote:
Some core gnome 3.8 ebuilds now have a hard dependency on systemd. It seems that the devs decided to give up trying to make gnome 3.8 work without systemd. This will force some people to migrate to systemd which might help improve the situation with it.
:rotflmao:

So systemd effectively assimilated GNOME.
:lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
ggeeoo wrote:
Some core gnome 3.8 ebuilds now have a hard dependency on systemd. It seems that the devs decided to give up trying to make gnome 3.8 work without systemd. This will force some people to migrate to systemd which might help improve the situation with it.
:rotflmao:

So systemd effectively assimilated GNOME.


http://lwn.net/Articles/520892/

Quote:
Although many seemed to initially interpret Nocera's "hard requirement" message to mean that gnome-settings-daemon would have a build-time dependency on systemd, he later clarified that the change relied on systemd's D-Bus interface, and that through run-time detection, the system would simply disable the power plugin if systemd was unavailable. According to another message, the power plugin only uses two systemd interfaces, inhibitor locks and session tracking.

But if the plugin that introduces the dependency only needs to access two well-known interfaces over D-Bus, the question becomes whether or not systemd is actually required at all. In the email cited above, Bacher asked if Nocera had considered defining the interfaces as a standard, so that GNOME would work on any system that implemented them. Nocera responded that the question should be directed at the systemd developers, as he was not interested in taking on the task. That suggestion garnered little support; although Rostovtsev expressed some interest, Bacher replied that he did not have time to undertake the task.


Apparently it is to the devs of non-systemd OS/distro to provide the systemd-like functionalities required by Gnome 3.8, by the time gnome 3.8 becomes stable on gentoo the problem should have been solved somehow :-)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the problem is being solved by not allowing a non-systemd gnome :P
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was the idea behind app-admin/openrc-settingsd, to provide a d-bus api compatible with systemd. Unfortunately, it seems that this effort is being abandoned, probably because it was an uphill battle against upstream.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pffft... I shit-canned Gnome (and KDE) years ago because of other similar dependencies on similar crap. I remember fighting a battle over one form or the other of zero configuration networking having become a hard dependency (a battle that was won, but the trend was obvious -- if you don't steer clear of everything that freedesktop.org touches, you get sucked into their gravity well, and before you know it, they have defined your system for you and you might as well be using Windows).

The problem is now they've got their grubby little fingers into the core infrastructure of the system, creating artificial constraints and dependencies between all sorts of things that ought to be wholly independent of each other. What makes this particularly onerous is that many of these are not well-thought-out and tested, not seriously and collaboratively engineered, and you end up doing back-flips to accommodate something like HAL only to have it quickly obviated and deprecated.

This stuff is all well-intended, but it's also somewhat misguided. It seems quite focused on the desktop computing use case, and that is neither the front on which Linux is achieving success nor the strategic direction computing in general seems to be moving. If your're going to create a Borg, at least create a Borg that's not deluded as to what it's purpose ought to be. :lol:
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And that's the main problem I have with it. Its like they have not learnt anything from windows (and soo many vuln All coming from one core service... Svchost) or the Unix philosophy (single app does one job really well).

More and more applications are linking into sysd when there is no need... (Wtf does sysd have to manage cgroups when we have means already...). Any vuln will now ripple through the system. Any update will cause more and more applications to be rebuilt.
They have demonstrated time and time again they do not believe in api or abi compatibility.

I now have a fun task of removing gnome from my system so my system will update. Maybe I will use sysd in the future but in my own time. An init system is that... Wtf does it have todo with cgroups or login permissions when what exists works well
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah. Fran is swearing at them in the bug. Not good for morale.

So *you* were the sanctimonious John Brender... I should've figured :lol:

Gotta give you props for the patience. Maybe in 2016 #373219 will be fixed.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to gentoo wiki:

Quote:
systemd is a modern sysvinit & RC replacement for Linux systems. It is supported in Gentoo as an alternate init system.


Sometimes I still fancy about switching to systemd on my small server but this supported/non supported status is scaring me. This doesn't mean I am fully satisfied with openrc, but I immagine systemd will require even more tweaking. For example I don't see an iscsi target systemd unit installed .... Recently I decided that iscsi is a GOOD thing to have :-) Nor a uwsgi unit ....
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd still seems socialist in doing it all for you and not allowing you todo anything
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it'll be deprecated soon.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Maybe it'll be deprecated soon.


mmmhh, it is dependency-based systems that are showing their limits already :-)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Limits? Limits how?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well reacting to events, like for example the network connection is active, a monitor has been plugged in, ok this can be hacked in, like halting the boot process when dhcpcd is started but it is usually less effective.

It is the difference between "01start A, 02start B, 03start C, 04start D", "start A B C D considering that C requires B and B requires A and D", "start A B C D considering that C has to be started after B has started, A before starting B and D after C and when event X has been received".
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be missing something, but Solaris achieved dependencies pretty well in SMF. My only gripe was the use of XML.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so did Debian ...

I haven't used Solaris in years, but a long time ago smc (beside being a fatty CPU hungry java program), was continuosly monitoring the system to detect events like a node in the cluster has failed start the failover procedure according to the dependency tree or process X is using 100% of cpu1 restart it ..... (usually process X was the webserver of successful site that was attracting a lot of visits, visitors left waiting for a useless server restart :-) )

So, beside being a dependency based system (and also systemd has dependencies) was also reacting to events, by continuosly monitoring the system.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, yeah, if "availability" isn't done well, it can reduce availability :D
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
systemd still seems socialist in doing it all for you and not allowing you todo anything

Yeah, except if it were truly socialist, you'd have to pay for it as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/NetworkTarget/

BTW apparently my problem that the scsi initiator is started before the network is up can't be solved in systemd without the usual hack of halting the boot process waiting for nm-online ....

Well, I could hack NetworkManager-wait-online.service and instead of
Code:
WantedBy=multi-user.target

use
Code:
WantedBy=open-iscsi.service



Or look if iscsid can do it, well iscsid is the real problem, if the network is down when it starts it should wait and retry. I guess multipathd could do the job but why should I install it if I have a single interface ....
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