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flysideways
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Game On Reply with quote

“The only silver lining is that we now know who refuses to stand with the 90 percent of Americans – and in 2014, our ever-expanding coalition of supporters will work to make sure that voters don’t forget,” Bloomberg added.
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big dave
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

douchey politician and idiot reporter. the bill allowed for establishment of a federal registry of firearms (as long as the attorney general isn't involved), and got rid of firearms transportation rights which are guaranteed by federal law, even in shit states that don't have them. yeah, like republicans and tea are really going to support that.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great example of US "democracy": vested interests from world of commerce and industry - in this case the NRA - decide what happens not ordinary voters.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2014 will be interesting. Regardless of who wins, it will be viewed as a "mandate."
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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
2014 will be interesting. Regardless of who wins, it will be viewed as a "mandate."

Is that like a "bromance" that goes too far?
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juniper
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big dave wrote:
douchey politician and idiot reporter. the bill allowed for establishment of a federal registry of firearms (as long as the attorney general isn't involved), and got rid of firearms transportation rights which are guaranteed by federal law, even in shit states that don't have them. yeah, like republicans and tea are really going to support that.


so, what should be done about american gun violence if you can't even do this?

What a baffling country. In the 40s, pearl harbour was bombed and america entered the second world war on the side of the allies and the war turned. America flexed its considerable muscles and showed the world what it can do. in 1970, a situation with considerably more complexity, america showed opec whose boss by staring them down. But for some reason, this great country throws it hands in the air when it comes to gun violence. Or more precisely, what opec couldn't do, the NRA could.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
Is that like a "bromance" that goes too far?
A bromance would seem to imply dating. Then again, I've never truly understood the premise beyond cheesy sitcoms.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
big dave wrote:
douchey politician and idiot reporter. the bill allowed for establishment of a federal registry of firearms (as long as the attorney general isn't involved), and got rid of firearms transportation rights which are guaranteed by federal law, even in shit states that don't have them. yeah, like republicans and tea are really going to support that.


so, what should be done about american gun violence if you can't even do this?

What a baffling country. In the 40s, pearl harbour was bombed and america entered the second world war on the side of the allies and the war turned. America flexed its considerable muscles and showed the world what it can do. in 1970, a situation with considerably more complexity, america showed opec whose boss by staring them down. But for some reason, this great country throws it hands in the air when it comes to gun violence. Or more precisely, what opec couldn't do, the NRA could.


Yeah the 2nd amendment should be scraped. Only those with something to hide would be against a registry. The same needs done with the 4th and 5th amendments. Only people that have something to hide would be against the cops searching your house and person whenever the police felt like it.

Look at all the lives that would save.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
big dave wrote:
douchey politician and idiot reporter. the bill allowed for establishment of a federal registry of firearms (as long as the attorney general isn't involved), and got rid of firearms transportation rights which are guaranteed by federal law, even in shit states that don't have them. yeah, like republicans and tea are really going to support that.


so, what should be done about american gun violence if you can't even do this?

What a baffling country. In the 40s, pearl harbour was bombed and america entered the second world war on the side of the allies and the war turned. America flexed its considerable muscles and showed the world what it can do. in 1970, a situation with considerably more complexity, america showed opec whose boss by staring them down. But for some reason, this great country throws it hands in the air when it comes to gun violence. Or more precisely, what opec couldn't do, the NRA could.


Yeah the 2nd amendment should be scraped. Only those with something to hide would be against a registry. The same needs done with the 4th and 5th amendments. Only people that have something to hide would be against the cops searching your house and person whenever the police felt like it.

Look at all the lives that would save.


slippery slope needn't apply. 4 and 5 are in the canadian constitution (in various parts), 2 is not. As you may guess, I would say 4 and 5 are ESSENTIAL, and meh for 2.

but the left is all ears. anything?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've got to read this:


The Senate's gun control fail: dead children and monied politicians


Quote:
What is left to say?

A sane man's contempt for the United States Senate must now be certain and complete. Given the inertia on even the most modest legislative response to the mass murder of schoolchildren, those still credulous enough to believe that our governance is representative of popular will are either Barnum-sized suckers, or worse, tacit participants in tragedies soon to come. An entrenched collection of careerist incumbents, chosen and retained through their singular ability to gather cash from money troughs over six-year intervals – and the unrestrained ability of capital to keep those troughs constantly full – none of this is worthy of any intelligent citizen's respect or allegiance.

Never mind that the higher house of our bicameral farce is one in which 40% of the American population choses 60% of the representation; that millions of New Yorker or Texans, say, are represented and served to the same degree as thousands of Montanans. And never mind that the lower house has now been gerrymandered to a point where a majority of American votes are guaranteed to achieve a minority of the representation – ignore, for the sake of argument, the ridiculous and antiquated structural impediments to popular will ever achieving a popular outcome. Don't worry that mess. Just focus on the fucking money.

Our elections – and therefore our governance – have been purchased. Instead of publicly funded elections, instead of level playing fields, instead of processes in which the power of actual ideas prevails over the size of the bankroll, we have given our democratic birthright over to capital itself. A gun manufacturer's opinion can be thousands of times louder than the voice of any grieving Connecticut parent. And the damage that might come to political careers from individual Americans who wish to have gun laws require as much responsibility of gun owners as, say, motor vehicle laws? It pales when compared to the damage that can come to political careers from a lobbying group backed to hilt by those who will profit directly from the fear and violence in our culture.

Measured against profit and political security, dead children mean nothing. Common sense is easily dispatched. Truth itself is expendable in any circumstance. Only cash still has meaning to those who claim to represent us. And the cash will always be there, more with every election cycle. Unsatisfied with the profits that can be achieved within the context of actual representative government, capital has instead succeeded in buying the remnants of democracy at wholesale prices, so that profit can always be maximized and any other societal need or priority can be ignored.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most "NO" senators took arms industry cash... 8O

Quote:
All but three of the 45 senators who torpedoed gun control measures in Congress on Wednesday have received money from firearms lobbyists, according to new analysis by the Guardian and the Sunlight Foundation.

Some, such as Indiana Republican Dan Coats, registered donations from pro-shooting groups as recently as three weeks ago, when the proposal to extend background checks was still seen as likely to pass.

President Obama and congresswoman Gabby Giffords, who survived a gun attack, have both accused the Senate of being in thrall to gun money following Wednesday's vote. "They worried that the gun lobby would spend a lot of money and paint them as anti-second amendment," said Obama.

Yet campaign disclosures show the group were also direct recipients of gun cash. The National Rifle Association alone has given $800,000 to 40 of the senators who voted against the amendment since 1990, much of it in the run-up to the last election, according to Sunlight Foundation figures.

Information for the period since the Newtown school shooting is harder to come by because many quarterly filings due out on Tuesday have been delayed by the suspected ricin attack on members of Congress.

But Guardian analysis of the data available so far for 2013 reveals that some groups have continued to be active outside the election cycle – including Safari Club International, a pro-hunting organisation which gave $1,000 to Senator Coats on 29 March, according to the filings.

Documents also show the NRA saw a surge in donations to its lobbying arm in the months following Newtown – registering a record $2.7m in cash during January and February. Further disclosures showing the scale of its recent donations, particularly to politicians in the House of Representatives, are expected on Saturday.


Democracy for sale.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:
juniper wrote:
big dave wrote:
douchey politician and idiot reporter. the bill allowed for establishment of a federal registry of firearms (as long as the attorney general isn't involved), and got rid of firearms transportation rights which are guaranteed by federal law, even in shit states that don't have them. yeah, like republicans and tea are really going to support that.


so, what should be done about american gun violence if you can't even do this?

What a baffling country. In the 40s, pearl harbour was bombed and america entered the second world war on the side of the allies and the war turned. America flexed its considerable muscles and showed the world what it can do. in 1970, a situation with considerably more complexity, america showed opec whose boss by staring them down. But for some reason, this great country throws it hands in the air when it comes to gun violence. Or more precisely, what opec couldn't do, the NRA could.


Yeah the 2nd amendment should be scraped. Only those with something to hide would be against a registry. The same needs done with the 4th and 5th amendments. Only people that have something to hide would be against the cops searching your house and person whenever the police felt like it.

Look at all the lives that would save.


slippery slope needn't apply. 4 and 5 are in the canadian constitution (in various parts), 2 is not. As you may guess, I would say 4 and 5 are ESSENTIAL, and meh for 2.

but the left is all ears. anything?

The Second Amendment is just as binding law as the Fourth or Fifth. If one does not like the amendment, the Constitution provides a means to change.

And my post had nothing to do with a slippery slope, and everything to do with equivalence of the amendments and following the Law of the Land, which is the Constitution.
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Last edited by Old School on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A single screeching grieving parent should not dictate the laws of a free society.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. Never mind all that pathetic screeching about dead children. If they want to buy some Senators they'll have to pony up same as everybody else.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to point out that when I bought my AR-15 online, I had to undergo a background check. The company refused to send the controlled portion of the weapon to anyone who wasn't a federal firearms licensee. The FFL in my hometown ran the background check on me and then transferred the weapon into my name. It's the same process for states like Idaho.

When I was sixteen, my brother-in-law gave me a .22 LR semiautomatic rifle. It was in his name because I wasn't eighteen years old yet. When I became an adult, the weapon was transferred to me (personal transfer) by an FFL (background check).

I don't honestly understand what this bill was going to accomplish if passed.

After all the drama and fiddles playing around this, there's really nothing to see. I don't care that it failed, and I wasn't going to care if it passed.

EDIT: Added info about Idaho.

EDIT: Removed Senator finance comments.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't read thread. Just want to add that I said from the beginning that the Democrats knew very well that they weren't going to get anything like this passed at the Federal level, because it's an obvious violation of the Constitution. This whole thing is just political theater, to set up content for political attack ads in the coming Congressional elections.

If they had wanted to get something passed, they could have, by toning it down a bit and being reasonable. They purposely brought something to the floor that they knew would get hammered. Now they're all full of false outrage and populist demagoguery. It won't work though, unless there's another equally horrific shooting shortly before election time -- so look for Democrats to arrange one.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Yeah. Never mind all that pathetic screeching about dead children.
On that we can agree. Once they're able to have a rational discussion, we can revisit. Attempting to implement policies which would not have prevented their child from being dead is NOT the answer. Especially because they were screaming in reaction to their child's death. Among the absolute worst times to make any significant decisions. Which of course Democrats see as an opportunity.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Yeah. Never mind all that pathetic screeching about dead children. If they want to buy some Senators they'll have to pony up same as everybody else.

Practically all the people in Congress who have been caught taking bribes in recent history have been Democrats. On what basis are you making the claim that this vote is the result of "buying Senators"? Maybe they just know more about the specifics of the bill than you do. To many found this bill unacceptable, but others will certainly be brought forward.

But don't let facts and reality impinge on your histrionics. :roll:
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bogamol
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

90% of Americans support this bill? I've seen that in a few different articles. What is the source?
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Juniper wrote:
I fail to see the relevance.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bogamol wrote:
90% of Americans support this bill? I've seen that in a few different articles. What is the source?

It's a nice round number pulled out of a nice round place.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:

The Second Amendment is just as binding law as the Fourth or Fifth. If one does not like the amendment, the Constitution provides a means to change.

And my post had nothing to do with a slippery slope, and everything to do with equivalence of the amendments and following the Law of the Land, which is the Constitution.


I don't disagree.

However, why does this violate the constitution?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
On what basis are you making the claim that this vote is the result of "buying Senators"?
...
But don't let facts and reality impinge on your histrionics. :roll:


See previous posts. Read and learn.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Old School wrote:

The Second Amendment is just as binding law as the Fourth or Fifth. If one does not like the amendment, the Constitution provides a means to change.

And my post had nothing to do with a slippery slope, and everything to do with equivalence of the amendments and following the Law of the Land, which is the Constitution.


I don't disagree.

However, why does this violate the constitution?

Quote:
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Infringe means to encroach upon.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sikpuppy wrote:
bogamol wrote:
90% of Americans support this bill? I've seen that in a few different articles. What is the source?

It's a nice round number pulled out of a nice round place.

I like that expression. I will have to borrow this. :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
On what basis are you making the claim that this vote is the result of "buying Senators"?
...
But don't let facts and reality impinge on your histrionics. :roll:


See previous posts. Read and learn.

The only thing I learn from your posts is that there's a real-world "Arm Flailing Tube Man" out there in industrial sludge bogs of middle England.
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