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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LoTeK wrote:
btw, when hugo chavez died, woah, our conservatives showed so much respect!!!


Muso wrote:
Good riddance to that sweaty little fireplug.


Old School wrote:
About time.


pjp wrote:
Ding dong the Dick is dead!


Muso wrote:
your dear little socialist scumbag corpse known as "Ex-Chavez"
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Old School
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote, "about time" because, as you well know, I had him dying in 2012, and he hung on past.

The bastard made me look bad. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I think mcgruff has a point.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Actually, I think mcgruff has a point.

You think?
wswartzendruber wrote:
I think it's that conservatives show respect for someone when they die

:lol: :lol: :lol:

By the comments quoted by mcgruff you'd think Chavez used to eat USian children for breakfast.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
When Adolf Hitler died, not many people complained about the subsequent celebrations. Of course there were a few...

Some people here have no idea what she did or the millions of lives she wrecked.

That is a ludicrous comparison. Whatever your disagreements with Thatcher, and however justified they may be, she was well within the political mainstream. And however many lives she wrecked, that was decades ago and her death doesn't change it. I can see cheering if she was presently causing immense suffering and her death ended it, but that's not the case. Moreover, you actively cheer on politicians (Obama) who are wrecking countless lives right now. Bottom line: it's vulgar and poor taste. I'm not singing her praises, but neither am I expressing glee at her death. You should be more like me and less like you.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
......


So you concede that rampant unionism was a major problem and Thatcher sorted it.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mainstream..?! Thatcher was notorious as a deeply divisive extremist who despised large sections of the population whom she was elected to govern. Nobody, not even her supporters, would have called her mainstream. This was a woman who called Nelson Mandela a terrorist and was pals with General Pinochet. She gloried in

She was finally brought down by a hated poll tax and a riot involving a quarter of a million people. Now there's something you don't see every day.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
So you concede that rampant unionism was a major problem and Thatcher sorted it.


I think you kind of missed the point. Thatcher was the major problem. Unions were a minor one.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
. This was a woman who called Nelson Mandela a terrorist


Depends on your viewpoint at the time.

She stood for something, rare - don't get politicians or statesmen nowadays like that.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
So you concede that rampant unionism was a major problem and Thatcher sorted it.


I think you kind of missed the point. Thatcher was the major problem. Unions were a minor one.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry no - rampant inflation ? Think of a number and double it Scargill - militant unionism had a knife at
industry's throat.

I remember my father, (was) staunch Labour - working man, headed up the local branch of his particular union. In the end, turned against it all,
he saw what was happening you see, exploitation of a rather kind boss.

Now take that and broadcast it nationally.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
So you concede that rampant unionism was a major problem and Thatcher sorted it.


I think you kind of missed the point. Thatcher was the major problem. Unions were a minor one.


wait WAT, ur not british are you?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
A lot of assholes here. Even if she was the worst ever, dancing on her grave doesn't reverse anything she did.

++
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
wait WAT, ur not british are you?


Half-Scottish by birth.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

and u grew up where?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
When Adolf Hitler died, not many people complained about the subsequent celebrations. Of course there were a few...

Some people here have no idea what she did or the millions of lives she wrecked.

That is a ludicrous comparison. Whatever your disagreements with Thatcher, and however justified they may be, she was well within the political mainstream. And however many lives she wrecked, that was decades ago and her death doesn't change it. I can see cheering if she was presently causing immense suffering and her death ended it, but that's not the case. Moreover, you actively cheer on politicians (Obama) who are wrecking countless lives right now. Bottom line: it's vulgar and poor taste. I'm not singing her praises, but neither am I expressing glee at her death. You should be more like me and less like you.

mcgruff only cares when the other party kills children. When the the extremists on his side of the fence do it, he is silent.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
and u grew up where?


Fortunately, I never did grow up.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Mainstream..?! Thatcher was notorious as a deeply divisive extremist who despised large sections of the population whom she was elected to govern. Nobody, not even her supporters, would have called her mainstream. This was a woman who called Nelson Mandela a terrorist and was pals with General Pinochet. She gloried in

She was finally brought down by a hated poll tax and a riot involving a quarter of a million people. Now there's something you don't see every day.


she was by definition in the political mainstream. she was reelected.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
When Adolf Hitler died, not many people complained about the subsequent celebrations. Of course there were a few...

Some people here have no idea what she did or the millions of lives she wrecked.

That is a ludicrous comparison. Whatever your disagreements with Thatcher, and however justified they may be, she was well within the political mainstream. And however many lives she wrecked, that was decades ago and her death doesn't change it. I can see cheering if she was presently causing immense suffering and her death ended it, but that's not the case. Moreover, you actively cheer on politicians (Obama) who are wrecking countless lives right now. Bottom line: it's vulgar and poor taste. I'm not singing her praises, but neither am I expressing glee at her death. You should be more like me and less like you.

mcgruff only cares when the other party kills children. When the the extremists on his side of the fence do it, he is silent.


i think that was well said by dmitchell. frankly i disagreed with much of what she did. But it seemed both popularly supported, well-intentioned and in the mainstream. dancing on her grave isn't warranted (keep that in mind when obama dies righies!).

but it does bring up an interesting question. I think we would all dance when hitler died. So where is the line?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thatcher never got more than a third of the vote.

She wrecked millions of lives and gloried in it. "No such thing as society" indeed! What about mass unemployment and all the homeless beggars who appeared on the streets, or the huge chunk of British industry destroyed? All the while insisting that her barking mad neoliberal economic policies were the solution not the problem. "This lady's not for turning!".

A truly evil, ignorant woman. Now the lady's not for returning.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Thatcher never got more than a third of the vote.

She wrecked millions of lives and gloried in it. "No such thing as society" indeed! What about mass unemployment and all the homeless beggars who appeared on the streets, or the huge chunk of British industry destroyed? All the while insisting that her barking mad neoliberal economic policies were the solution not the problem. "This lady's not for turning!".

A truly evil, ignorant woman. Now the lady's not for returning.

So then why is nothing changed?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Thatcher never got more than a third of the vote.


Enough for govt.

Quote:

She wrecked millions of lives and gloried in it. "No such thing as society" indeed! What about mass unemployment and all the homeless beggars who appeared on the streets, or the huge chunk of British industry destroyed? All the while insisting that her barking mad neoliberal economic policies were the solution not the problem. "This lady's not for turning!".

A truly evil, ignorant woman. Now the lady's not for returning.


it's both hard and sometimes undesirable for a govt to turn around an industry. There are various factors that may make an industry unprofitable in certain places. You can't just send money down a sink hole forever.

I think lefties should move on from "protecting jobs" to protecting people. By that I mean accept that some jobs will simply go, but make sure there is a good safety net with a big chance to retool (a solid inexpensive education system) in another industry, and meanwhile protect the people too old to move on.

I don't know her in that I am too young to remember, and that goes for her policies, so if I was I guy who got stamped on in the 80s, my tune might be different. I admit that. But the point remains that she was, as I said, in the mainstream. Furthermore, context is important as well. She was elected 3 years after the IMF bailout of Britain.

I don't want to be put in the position of defending her, since I can't really politically (I wouldn't side with her likely). But it seems she was perhaps misguided rather than malicious.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Thatcher never got more than a third of the vote.

She wrecked millions of lives and gloried in it. "No such thing as society" indeed! What about mass unemployment and all the homeless beggars who appeared on the streets, or the huge chunk of British industry destroyed? All the while insisting that her barking mad neoliberal economic policies were the solution not the problem. "This lady's not for turning!".

A truly evil, ignorant woman. Now the lady's not for returning.


Were you one of the people that were made homeless? were you made unemployed? were you thrown in prison for not paying the poll tax?
Fact of the matter is Labour had again fucked up the economy. The unions had the country by the balls. There was a vote of no confidence against the prime minister!
The country was fucked and fucked because of Labour (they have a habit of doing that, country gets into the good times, tories don't give back so ppl vote in Labour, labour spends like crazy, ppl are happy BUT shit hits the fan and they can't sort it out so the ppl vote back in the tories to sort labours shit out again...)

In 1975 the national inflation was at 25%!!!
The average for the 70s was 13%, known as the shocking 70%

1978
17 February – Inflation has fallen to 9.9% – the first time since 1973 that it has been in single figures.
7 September Prime Minister James Callaghan announces that he will not call a general election for this autumn, and faces accusations from Tory leader Margaret Thatcher and Liberal leader David Steel of "running scared", in spite of many opinion polls showing that Labour (currently a minority government) could win an election now with a majority. Callaghan also announces that the Lib-Lab pact, formed 18 months ago when the government lost its majority, has reached its end.[23]
26 September – 23 Ford car plants are closed across Britain due to strikes.
3 November – Dominica gains its independence from the United Kingdom.
4 November – Many British bakeries impose bread rationing after a baker's strike led to panic buying of bread.[30]
10 November – Panic buying of bread stops as most bakers go back to work.
30 November – An industrial dispute closes down The Times newspaper (until 12 November 1979).[16]


1979
5 January - Lorry drivers go on strike, causing new shortages of heating oil and fresh food.
10 January - Prime Minister James Callaghan returns from an international summit to a Britain in a state of industrial unrest. The Sun newspaper reports his comments with a famous headline: "Crisis? What Crisis?"[1]
15 January - Rail workers begin a 24-hour strike.
22 January - Tens of thousands of public-workers strike in the beginning of what becomes known as the "Winter of Discontent".[2]
[edit]February
1 February - Grave-diggers call off a strike in Liverpool which has delayed dozens of burials.
12 February - Over 1,000 schools close due to the heating oil shortage caused by the lorry drivers' strike.
14 February - "Saint Valentine's Day Concordat" between Trades Union Congress and Government, The Economy, the Government, and Trade Union Responsibilities, marks an end to the "Winter of Discontent".[4]
28 March - James Callaghan's government loses a motion of confidence by one vote, forcing a general election.[10]
29 March - James Callaghan announces that the general election will be held on 3 May. All of the major opinion polls point towards a Conservative win which would make Margaret Thatcher the first female prime minister of Britain.



Its surprising how easy it is for people to forget how bad the country was just before she got in, in a state that the previous labour gov'n left it in. Thatcher won the EU Rebate, she sorted out the unions, she (for better or worse) started privatisation of some costly public institutions. She did alot for the country

Likewise what is this 1/3 of the vote? she ACTUALLY only won 0.5% of the vote when she won her constituency.
The conservatives

1979: 13,697,923 out of 31,221,362 == 43.87%
1983: 13,012,316 out of 30,661,309 == 42.44%
1987: 13,760,935 out of 32,530,204 == 42.30%

So where the fuck did you get 33% from.

She was also voted in 3 times in a row because while she may have been harsh, Neil Kinnock's proposals to sort the economy out just did not add up. The people consecutively voted in a labour gov'n which destroyed the country, reduced it to the poorest member of the EU, the people had to feel the pain of what they did.



So again how exactly did you get fucked over by Thatcher?
I grew up under Thatcher, she literally took my milk! (one of her 1st policies). Likewise I am from a single parent family. I grew up on benefits and due to colossal fuck ups in her gov'n we were living well below the breadline while she was saying on national television "there are no child in this country in poverty". We were living on £1 meals YET I shudder at the thought of what things would have been like if labour stayed in.

Now there are some people at work who while I was eating plain pasta for my meals were getting fucked over by the govn' since The conservative gov'n at the time were hitting the self-employed middle-class HARD, really hard. A contractor mate will literally start swearing for 5min if you mention her as he had to declare himself bankrupt due to the harsh taxing laws that were brought down on the middle class. Meanwhile the big corporations were profiting - as is the way with the conservatives. YET I shudder to think what the country would be like if labour had stayed in
Likewise it is a cabinet decision. a PM does not unilaterally make policies, they do not go against the majority of the cabinet (since they will just raise a vote of no confidence).

She also defended the Falklands, something that under NATO rules France, Germany, USA should have also jumped into but they didn't... an attack on one is an attack on all..


My entire upbringing was fucked by her government yet I can see the alternative would have been worse, the next labour gov'n then ensured I left university with £10,000 of debt + creditcards... (benefit of growing up on really not alot is you learn how to live like that so I thought I was living a life of luxury while others were running for handouts) So again HOW exactly were you affected by the Iron Lady!
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Last edited by Naib on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
it seems she was perhaps misguided rather than malicious.


No she was deliberately malicious both by neglect and by design. Thatcher and her party detested the welfare state which they saw as a burden on the productive wealth-creating sector. She revelled in her chance to take a wrecking ball to the status quo. She presided over an orgy of greed for those at the top and desolation for those at the bottom. The tories privatised everything they could get away with leading to worse pay and conditions for ordinary workers. Crime doubled under the party of "law and order" and "Victorian values".

None of this had to happen. She was a dangerous, bigoted narcissist who didn't care about the cost of any of her policies. She was always right and it was perfectly all right to make other people pay the price for her "vision". They were only socialist scum after all.

I don't think you realise just how malignant were the forces she unleashed under the guise of "saving Britain". Any fool can run an economy to create success for some at the expense of others. That's not hard. The trick is to create success for everyone.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Fact of the matter is Labour had again fucked up the economy. The unions had the country by the balls. There was a vote of no confidence against the prime minister!


So the UK needed a better labour party, or a "one nation" tory party. Thatcher's "cure" was worse than the disease. It's like going to the doctor with a broken finger only to have the doctor break your arm and pronounce you cured.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Naib wrote:
Fact of the matter is Labour had again fucked up the economy. The unions had the country by the balls. There was a vote of no confidence against the prime minister!


So the UK needed a better labour party, or a "one nation" tory party. Thatcher's "cure" was worse than the disease. It's like going to the doctor with a broken finger only to have the doctor break your arm and pronounce you cured.


and you failed to answer the question. How exactly did she and her conservative gov'n fuck with you?


The country always needs a better labour gov'n they always fucked things up. The country always needs a better tory gov'n. The country needs better gov'n but it doesn't exist it jocky's between one extreme and another. YET you still havn't backed up ur drivel
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