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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: steveL
Topic: Gentoo Package Repository now using Git
Post: post 7816806
Reason: spreading negativity and hate, probably trying to derail the topic
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
Reason: spreading negativity and hate, probably trying to derail the topic

Oh God, not you again.

Responded in-thread to your falsehoods in-thread.

Making up crap about people, and then spreading it all over the forums, and abusing your position to complain about said made-up assertions, to anyone who'll listen, does not make them true.

It does qualify as "negativity and hate" though, so as usual you're doing your usual projection number.
Bravo.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Oh God, not you again.

It looks like a quote from moby dick seeing achab ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: hasufell
Topic: Gentoo Package Repository now using Git
Post: post 7816846
Reason: Abusive behaviour

hasufell has no grounds for the following, and it is directly insulting to me as a person:
Quote:
Please refrain from spreading your negativity, hate and drama for no reason. You are neither productive, nor helpful.

I would appreciate it if someone had a word with him, and took it up with comrel, as this groundless abuse of person, and process, has gone on for about 2 years.

He seems to think he can do what he wants, assert whatever lies he likes, making direct personal insults, and comrel will never ever act against him.

Please prove this wrong; or be honest and tell us Comrel is a developer-only avenue.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:

Please prove this wrong; or be honest and tell us Comrel is a developer-only avenue.

I agree with you about his attitude that look too much obsessive against you.

But from what i know ; mods do moderation work in the forum ; and calling Comrel is not a moderator task.
They are here for the forum, so they might and could take action for the problem here.

To get comrel looking at it, you must ask it to bugzilla ; and bugzilla is own by... devs... So circle is close.
The only thing that is good about it ; to kept their circle close to them only, devs must accept forum is under 100% hands of mods only (else putting forum status under questions would put bugzilla and comrel also under questions).
So when it's about forum, mods are the law.

Just query mods about forum issue. Comrel is a dev only avenue ; you shouldn't then ask any mod to put himself in an unstable and uncomfortable chair when you know it will do nothing anyway no?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
steveL wrote:

Please prove this wrong; or be honest and tell us Comrel is a developer-only avenue.

I agree with you about his attitude that look too much obsessive against you.

I don't agree because just days ahead at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7813028.html#7813028
hasufell wrote:
You are confused. I cannot censor anyone's opinion just by expressing my own opinion. That makes no sense =)

Naib wrote:
...

steveL wrote:
Wow. Just wow.

And people wonder why I want nothing to do with being a Gentoo "developer".

Can someone show me
one existing example
where a Gentoo developer can discuss with normal Gentoo users
without steveL making his case until the developer on his knees
begging for pardon?

Is there any thread left not derailed for his own purpose?
Since years ...
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desultory
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
User: steveL
Topic: Gentoo Package Repository now using Git
Post: post 7816806
Reason: spreading negativity and hate, probably trying to derail the topic
Would you prefer him to have quoted you directly? Seriously: what is your actual claim here?

krinn wrote:
But from what i know ; mods do moderation work in the forum ; and calling Comrel is not a moderator task.
They are here for the forum, so they might and could take action for the problem here.
While there has been some disagreement as to the actual boundaries of responsibility, ComRel (as with DevRel and UserRel before it) has never requested action on the part of the forum staff. The only debatable exception being one instance some years ago (before UserRel and ComRel merged) when a member of both relevant teams took action on the forums with regard to a *Rel proceeding, though as I recall that action was in keeping with forum rules as well making it more logically a joint action even if only one person actually made the decision. ComRel has offered assistance with adjudication should it ever be necessary, we have not had occasion to take them up on that offer.

ulenrich wrote:
krinn wrote:
steveL wrote:

Please prove this wrong; or be honest and tell us Comrel is a developer-only avenue.

I agree with you about his attitude that look too much obsessive against you.

I don't agree because just days ahead at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7813028.html#7813028
hasufell wrote:
You are confused. I cannot censor anyone's opinion just by expressing my own opinion. That makes no sense =)

Naib wrote:
...

steveL wrote:
Wow. Just wow.

And people wonder why I want nothing to do with being a Gentoo "developer".

Can someone show me
one existing example
where a Gentoo developer can discuss with normal Gentoo users
without steveL making his case until the developer on his knees
begging for pardon?

Is there any thread left not derailed for his own purpose?
Since years ...
Considering the distinct paucity of posts from you of late not evidently dedicated to baiting or harassing steveL, you hardly seem to be the most neutral, objective, or even merely rational of observers. Still, you have full access to the basic search functions of this site and of those that index this site, feel free to avail yourself of them while curtailing excess hyperbole.

Split from "Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc.".
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It certainly would help if some people stopped their vendettas. :roll:

(And now embrace and kiss! :twisted: )
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
It certainly would help if some people stopped their vendettas. :roll:


++

My only comment on this whole circus is that I typically just walk on by when I see the performers going at it again on the circus floor.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
Is there any thread left not derailed for his own purpose?
Since years ...
Considering the distinct paucity of posts from you of late not evidently dedicated to baiting or harassing steveL, you hardly seem to be the most neutral, objective, or even merely rational of observers.
steveL mentioned he answered in thread:
steveL wrote:
Responded in-thread to your falsehoods in-thread.

steveL wrote:
hasufell wrote:
Please refrain from spreading your negativity, hate and drama for no reason.

WTF are you talking about? It was a simple statement, alluding to the content miket posted above in response to your negativity.

Projecting your issues on me, then asserting that I behave in manner X, does not make it true.

Though you're not alone in trying it.

Funny how often it happens with formerly-lucid developers who become paludroids; normally after about 12-18 months indoctrination in the myth that the cult-members are a "persecuted minority".
Typically they then start kicking up a fuss about how no-one wants paludis as a default (boo-hoo.)

There were several years of very good reasons why McCreesh was forcibly ejected from Gentoo, and why his behaviour thereafter formed the background to the Developer CoC, including its effect on developers after they leave Gentoo.

You really should reconsider both your approach, your manners, and the people you associate with.

I'll return to the actual topic next week; I had no intention of even posting to this thread until then, then I found out you'd done your usual "ban him, because I don't like him, let me count the made-up reasons" nonsense.

Consider whether you are not just a troll, however wonderful you might think you are (before you actually have to run your ideas by others, let alone real-life.)
Apropos baiting:
- steveL is not shy to open a case ten years after regarding McCreesh
- associates hasufell with a "cult"
- calls him a troll (Of course he puts it in a rhetorical question: "Consider whether you are not just a troll")
What is there reasonable in this answer? I cannot see non baiting of steveL. This kind of derailing the threads where Gentoo maintainers talk with normal users happens since long. Also it is widely known steveL gets exclusive protection from forum admins. It is seen a lost case to stand up against his behavior. @desultory, typically you focus on me baiting him!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Ramble Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Is there any thread left not derailed for his own purpose?

Oh God, and you again. What a surprise.

I'm pretty sure there aren't any threads on systemd that you haven't stuck your "surreal" oar into, seemingly with the express purpose of propagandising for RedHat.

It doesn't seem to matter how ridiculous you sound, nor how many people tell you you're talking nonsense, you keep eulogising about how great it is. That really is dedicated.

IME dedication like that, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is usually paid-for belief, or a familial connection.

As for my "derailing" threads, I don't accept the notion: I am never alone in querying what I query, but I'm usually the guy anyone who wants to lie about it and pretend it isn't real[1], accuses of "causing" whatever issue it is we're discussing.

As if to talk about a thing after it has already happened, is to cause it in the first place. What nonsense.

If that can't work, then we get sidetracked into "ooh he's so horrible, isn't he Gavin?" iow: let's pretend the issue is the person raising it, not what she's talking about.

To anyone external, all this looks exactly like "shoot the messenger."

In that regard, consistent deflection is an embarrassment, not a point-scored.

My only purpose is to improve Gentoo, despite all the mud you keep throwing my way.
Disagree with me on that tip, and I'll be happy to deal with you.

Talk crap about how your ego cannot handle a piece of software being critiqued, and I will laugh at you, offline at least.

Same goes for everything to do with software production: if it affects the output, it's fine for discussion.

If it's business, it can usually be improved, and that is all it is to me when we're discussing at this non-code level: business.
Results, first and foremost.

Software that wastes our time, costs us money; and has knock-on real-world effects that matter to real human-beings.

Sorry if you don't like that, but it's so not my problem.
--

[1] Naturally that's going to be a developer, most of the time, since they're the ones implementing whatever it is, and I'm calling their baby ugly; even if that's not what I'm saying, that's how it feels when you're new. Which is why I'm usually careful to qualify criticism to a specific area, not the whole shebang. (If I really don't like the whole shebang, I'm not using it.)

Does that mean we should kowtow, or mince our words? Absolutely not: we're meant to be nurturing professionals. That requires an ability to ego-detach, or you will go insane (aka: burn-out); since if you don't care about the work, you're not even up for consideration.

You MUST be able to cope with people calling your software crap: if it is, most everybody will, and you learn (something technical.)

If it isn't, then someone will just because you're competition. And again, you learn (something social.)

Either way, you MUST NOT attach criticism of your code to yourself.

I know I don't, since most of my time is spent thinking "No, that won't work," along with an occasional "What was I thinking?", and the seldom-encountered-but-scary "Who wrote that?" when I know damn well no-one else has touched that code.

That is why I am dismissive of bad ideas: it's not confrontational, it's simply that I know it's a bad idea, and having explained or read why, my overriding impetus is to move on with a better one. (As it would be if scotched a particular approach in code.)

Arguing about the bad idea, once we know it's a bad idea, is simply a waste of time when it comes to getting results.[2]

Even worse is arguing about how I should not have said it was a bad idea, as it supposedly hurt the feelings of someone who usually displays no empathy for anyone else, only bafflement at even being called-out on unforgivable rudeness.

Thinking about why we made a mistake is only useful at a meta-level, usually individual, and not conducive to getting results; especially when it comes to the limited collaboration-time available to move forward.
(A different consideration applies to social matters, rather than technical: I am only talking about the latter.)

If it's a basic mistake you keep making, like pretending that modularity is a "traditional", "legacy" concern, and not as fundamental as hygiene is to surgery, then people will make the criticism directly, and again: you learn.

Honestly, it's a lot more fun when you don't take code-criticism personally, and broader criticism as a chance to self-improve.

If you don't want to learn, except from your own ego, then you are in the wrong business.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

You should do everyone, including yourself, a favour, and find another trade, preferably after seeing a therapist.
--

[2] So all you're going to get from me is: "No, it's still a bad idea", which apparently comes across as stubborn.

To me it's like having to say: "No, water is still wet"; I'm unsure why we're even having the conversation, so I look for other reasons, when perhaps I should not.
Yes, that's a concession that I, too, can get carried away. Make of it what you will.

I'm only human, and it's no fun coming under constant fire from people with badges and yet far too much to prove, as well as friends to collude with, in abuse of Comrel process; which keeps on happening with no consequences for the initiating party: just an "oh well, better luck next time."

If someone else wants to take on the "mantle" of user-some-of-us-would-most-like-to-ban-but-can't-because-there-are-no-grounds-as-really-we're-just-being-a-bunch-of-asshat-dweebs, then feel free.

It won't be hard: just post to the developer mailing-list pointing out the massive inconsistencies in various positions adopted, along with constructive ideas on improvement; and show some awareness of the background and supposed "rationale" in each case, so that you cannot simply be dismissed with a "you don't know what you're talking about" (several variants of which you will encounter along the way, with varying degrees of rudeness, but very rarely none.)

You'll soon see just how "pleasant" developer hate-mail can be.

Meantime I'm still going to use Gentoo, and hopefully I'll improve where I have rough edges.
Certainly there's no shortage of "helpful" criticism to point out every tiny mistake I might make, which I guess is no different for the developers.

I just wish people would focus on technical disagreements with what I say, as they're so much more interesting, for me at least.
Though I guess that's the point isn't it: when we cannot argue with what you're saying, we seek to discredit you instead (cue: mud-slinging, call for backup and get them mud-slinging.)

Social ones when applied by developers to users, seem to be a mechanism of control, rather than clarity.

And ofc they don't exist when it comes to developers: they just get swept under the carpet, so other users can trip over them; and hopefully break their ankles for having the temerity, to expect developers to behave just half-as-well as users.

So it is different: for developers, clear social problems are hand-waved away along with whatever spurious meme they are telling themselves this year; and technical criticism can always be deflected into social-criticism of the user, and usually is whenever they feel out of their depth.

For users, any social criticism is magnified inordinately to serve that last; and technical criticism is non-existent since you're only a user, so we don't have to listen to you (if only you "contributed" in ways we acknowledge, that show submission unto us.. iow: if only you wanted to be an ebuild developer, then we'd have leverage over you.)

Essentially the same position as a hospital claiming no other doctor can have an opinion on their botched surgery, on the grounds that "they don't work here".
Yeah, right.

This does not a healthy development-model make.

No, I'm not talking doom-and-gloom or whatever other crap I'll no doubt be accused of:

The developers who behave like this are few and far between.

The vast majority get on with their work without giving a damn about the rest of the tree, let alone what a small group developers are playing at now.

Unfortunately we mostly see that small group (or another) when it comes to flamey threads on the forums, since they have an agenda to push, which is what the threads were about in the first place.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
steveL is not shy to open a case ten years after regarding McCreesh

If you think McCreesh is not still in the background pulling strings, you have no clue what you are talking about.

Which wouldn't be a new occurrence; nonetheless you should inform yourself before you start wading in.
Quote:
associates hasufell with a "cult"

Paludroids have given every indication of behaving exactly like a cult.

You clearly have not seen, as I have on several occasions, formerly-sane and actually quite pleasant developers change over a period of two years into parodies of nastiness, effectively mini-McCreesh's.

They really do sound like they're in pain at the conflicts of loyalty he deliberately engenders, rather than simply respecting another person's loyalties, and loyalty.

It's exactly like a cult: your existing ties are forcibly cut, and you are forced to keep hearing them denigrated, so you can be built-up again from the ground, in a mould to your "great" leader's liking. This is painful to anyone but a sociopath, though an autist might appear unaffected.

I'm sorry you don't know what I am talking about: that does not mean it is untrue, nor that it never happens.

It just means you've never come across it, which does not qualify you to criticise someone who has, and recognises it, for describing it as it is.
Quote:
calls him a troll (Of course he puts it in a rhetorical question: "Consider whether you are not just a troll")

That was a genuine attempt to get him to see another perspective. It relates to my final point about myself.

In any event, as you pointed out, I did not come out and say "you are just a troll", although he of course has insulted me directly, now and in the past.
You appear to be starting down the same route: my advice would be you've taken a wrong-turn, and the only way to correct such is to backtrack.
Quote:
What is there reasonable in this answer? I cannot see non baiting of steveL.

I presume you meant "you cannot see baiting of steveL", which may just be due to the fact that English is not your mother-tongue.

Believe me, there's loads of it in what hasufell wrote, and has written over the last 2 years or so.

You are wrong.

As to what's reasoned about it, the above should have answered that; I'm not going to explain further.
Quote:
This kind of derailing the threads where Gentoo maintainers talk with normal users happens since long.

Ah now we come to it: I'm not a "normal user".
Quote:
Also it is widely known steveL gets exclusive protection from forum admins.

This is untrue (and a bullshit argument when shared as a meme): I get dragged over the coals by moderators far more than you know.

Over the years I've come to realise it's actually good for me, though it still can be tedious, especially when you're forced to listen to the same bullshit argument someone else has made, and the moderator hasn't quite seen that it is bullshit.
Quote:
It is seen a lost case to stand up against his behavior.

By whom? People with agendas who cannot understand why insulting me personally does not work in quite the same way as it works in #gentoo-dev or the mailing-list of yore?

I'm sure they do indeed get together and discuss how much they hate me, for showing McCreesh or Poeterring up (though prob'y not quite as much as I'd like to imagine.)
Everyone gets defensive of their demigod, especially when he's just a living, crapping human-being like everyone else.

I don't see that as a criticism though. More a reflection that moderators don't care about anything other than decent moderation, and the overall health of Gentoo.
Quote:
@desultory, typically you focus on me baiting him!

So stop obsessively baiting me, then.

I lost count of how many threads you attacked me on the other day, instead of simply responding directly in the thread at-hand.

Consider whether my behaviour is in fact within the bounds of normal conversation, irrespective of what stance I might be taking or disagreeing with.
That is all that really applies, though I have of course been picked up on other things, sometimes rightly-so.

You want an example? I have a tendency to stand up to anyone I think is bullying people, which can sometimes be a very subtle troll; so subtle that I am unaware I am trolling them, and in fact not helping the situation.

In my head I'm just speaking the truth to power: but in reality I'm winding them up.

OFC that's what speaking the truth to power has always done, but there's no need to turn this into a metaphor for everything else; it is what it is: a forum for collaboration, and the vast majority of developers came up through it, not from elsewhere, despite the debian influx about 9 years ago or w/e, and the occasional "rockstar" documentation-guy.

So I need to work on that, just as you need to work on your supposedly-surreal responses which just annoy, and start being more straightforward, as well as rational, meaning reasoned before you post.

The point being: getting me to see that, took weeks and it could never have happened without one-to-one discussion, ie: not in public forum-threads.
I'm sure others here have had discussion with mods off-thread as well.

Anyhow, if we've cross-posted again, it'll have to wait, as I really do need to get some work done this week.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Apropos baiting:
- steveL is not shy to open a case ten years after regarding McCreesh
Unfortunately, he remains a rather polarizing figure for much of the Gentoo user, and especially developer, base. Telling people to stop going on about that, or even consider his current behavior instead of historical behavior when complaining about, or supporting, him simply leaves one looking like a massive Cnut.
ulenrich wrote:
- associates hasufell with a "cult"
Not all cults are bad, in fact some of them are quite popular. Gentoo has a decided preference for religious neutrality, for better or worse, accepting members of the Cult of Paludis, the Cult of Systemd, and even the Cult of Emacs. In case the sarcasm there failed to penetrate, you should probably at least skim the relevant wikipedia article.
ulenrich wrote:
- calls him a troll (Of course he puts it in a rhetorical question: "Consider whether you are not just a troll")
What is there reasonable in this answer? I cannot see non baiting of steveL. This kind of derailing the threads where Gentoo maintainers talk with normal users happens since long. Also it is widely known steveL gets exclusive protection from forum admins. It is seen a lost case to stand up against his behavior.
Just because he posts, even asks questions, does not mean he is "derailing" a conversation, it means he is participating in it. If things go off topic, they can be split, we have moderators for a reason.
ulenrich wrote:
@desultory, typically you focus on me baiting him!
Thank you for noticing, perhaps now you can act upon it by making an effort to not bait him or anyone else.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually refrain from mingling in these sad childish battles.
But as I'm on vacation and a little bored + this topic doesn't have anything to offer so there is nothing to destroy or get offtopic from:

Get over it!

If you guys only instead spend half of your energy put into these back-and-forth crying into sourcecode or wiki's...

_NOBODY_ here is interested in your arguments anymore.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee thanks for that Maitreya.

It's good to know we can resolve these issues in a grown-up and reasonably amicable manner.

Kindly STFU if you have nothing constructive to add.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Gee thanks for that Maitreya.


You are very welcome :)

Quote:

It's good to know we can resolve these issues in a grown-up and reasonably amicable manner.


There is nothing being resolved really. It just goes on and on and on. It also not very amicable or grown up.
You are all literate, well versed and good at arguing. But the contents is most of the time "he is stupid because he said this, but he is stupid because said that" etc.

Quote:

Kindly STFU if you have nothing constructive to add.


ok :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me put it more succinctly:

No one here cares that you are bored.

We do not owe you entertainment "value".

No one asked you to read this thread: there are thousands of others, and indeed many other websites you can use, when you are bored.

Your boredom is not our purpose, nor our interest.

All your statement does is make it harder for people to have these conversation in the future, and like it or not, sometimes they need to happen.
If they don't interest you, and no-one is expecting that they would, YTF do you read them?

I hardly ever read anything in the Forums Feedback section; it's hardly the most interesting part of the site.
Nor do I, and I expect others, particularly enjoy the "back and forth" as implied by your post.
It just has to be got through on certain occasions.

In summary: do something more interesting instead, and don't expect us to care about your boredom, as it is completely irrelevant.

Have a nice day now ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Let me put it more succinctly:

No one here cares that you are bored.

We do not owe you entertainment "value".

No one asked you to read this thread: there are thousands of others, and indeed many other websites you can use, when you are bored.

Your boredom is not our purpose, nor our interest.

Good and I agree. I never asked for anyone to care about my boredom. It was just the reason why I this time did react to such a topic.

Quote:

All your statement does is make it harder for people to have these conversation in the future, and like it or not, sometimes they need to happen.

If they don't interest you, and no-one is expecting that they would, YTF do you read them?

Because they have been derailing topics that are interesting.

Quote:

I hardly ever read anything in the Forums Feedback section; it's hardly the most interesting part of the site.
Nor do I, and I expect others, particularly enjoy the "back and forth" as implied by your post.
It just has to be got through on certain occasions.

Again. Agreed. however: certain != every other day

Quote:

In summary: do something more interesting instead, and don't expect us to care about your boredom, as it is completely irrelevant.

I did :)
And never asked for your interest in my boredom.

Quote:

Have a nice day now ;)


It was, and thank you :)
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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*
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