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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who runs the forums and are they open to suggestions about upgrades/improving the security and usability? It would be nice to start working on a potential upgrade path.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YumeWizard wrote:
Who runs the forums and are they open to suggestions about upgrades/improving the security and usability?
They do, and yes.
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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
YumeWizard wrote:
Who runs the forums and are they open to suggestions about upgrades/improving the security and usability?
They do, and yes.


Some questions,

    01. Why is the forum in it's current state with seemingly little interest in any change(atleast documented/planned that I can see)? I can understand that things "just work" right now and have done so for sometime and perhaps in the opinion of forum staff there is no 1 HUGE reason to move forward at this moment but it seems like letting things stagnate for such a long time even after offical support for PHPBB2 has ended is not that great of an idea and the longer you let things stagnate it will just be harder to move forward in the future vs having slowly upgraded overtime you're now presented with a huge leap forward which seems much more problematic.

    02. Is there any upgrade path/plans for the forums being worked on already?

    03. The Wiki page references a "testing" server where new feautres/ideas can be tested but it seems to no longer exist?

    04. Sort of an addition to question #01, is there any major reason keeping us from moving to a better solution?

    05. What is the status on things like: https://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/vuln/detail?vulnId=CVE-2008-7143 Which as far as I know have not been patched by the official devs? Are we maintaining our own patches for the Forum software?
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see the concern. Why should this forum have greater security than my bank, which uses passwords that are case-insensitive and are strictly alpha-numeric? If someone does crack my forum account, what can happen other than some embarrassment. Don't want to venture into politics, but even hillary's private e-mail server that had USA classified information on it wasn't secure.

It's only a forum password. Don't make it too difficult to sign up.
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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
I don't see the concern. Why should this forum have greater security than my bank, which uses passwords that are case-insensitive and are strictly alpha-numeric? If someone does crack my forum account, what can happen other than some embarrassment. Don't want to venture into politics, but even hillary's private e-mail server that had USA classified information on it wasn't secure.

It's only a forum password. Don't make it too difficult to sign up.


It's certainly difficult to argue against the iron-clad logic of your "this one website has bad security, why should any website have good security?" argument but I'll do my best.

None of what I've seen discussed so far would make signing up anymore difficult so your statement about making signing up more difficult doesn't make any sense and only serves to take away from your argument.

You're right about nobody caring that your account gets hacked, I wouldn't care about mine either aside from the inconvenience. Like someone else mentioned I also do not reuse passwords but I feel like you've all missed a very big point.
I'm sure most of you have experienced watching another project make the rounds for bad practices/being hacked, I'm sure you've seen all of the negative attention it brings to the whole project and the loss of trust from current and potential users. Maybe you no longer think very highly of a project due to stupid mistakes they've made in the past. I know lots of people feel that way and I have seen projects lose lots of steam after being run through the muck on news websites/discussion websites after such an incident.

I also feel like it's really unfair to the people who put lots of their freetime into other parts of the Gentoo project to have the whole projects name run through the mud because 1 part of the Gentoo project for whatever reason seems to be quite neglected.


The forums could stand to be updated regardless of whether you think mountains of bad publicity and ridicule is a big deal or not for a Project that relies on contributions from the public, the current software is long EOL/it's missing many convenient features of current forum software/the security features are quite outdated(utilizing MD5 hashing for password protection)/once the new Forum software is in place it would be a good time to plan out the future of the Forums and plans to make sure they're never as outdated as they currently are.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YumeWizard wrote:
Some questions,

    01. Why is the forum in it's current state with seemingly little interest in any change(atleast documented/planned that I can see)? I can understand that things "just work" right now and have done so for sometime and perhaps in the opinion of forum staff there is no 1 HUGE reason to move forward at this moment but it seems like letting things stagnate for such a long time even after offical support for PHPBB2 has ended is not that great of an idea and the longer you let things stagnate it will just be harder to move forward in the future vs having slowly upgraded overtime you're now presented with a huge leap forward which seems much more problematic.
That is a thesis, not a question.
YumeWizard wrote:
02. Is there any upgrade path/plans for the forums being worked on already?
Yes.
YumeWizard wrote:
03. The Wiki page references a "testing" server where new feautres/ideas can be tested but it seems to no longer exist?
That is a statement, not a question; the statement is presently factually correct.
YumeWizard wrote:
04. Sort of an addition to question #01, is there any major reason keeping us from moving to a better solution?
Define better, give examples.
YumeWizard wrote:
05. What is the status on things like: https://web.nvd.nist.gov/view/vuln/detail?vulnId=CVE-2008-7143 Which as far as I know have not been patched by the official devs? Are we maintaining our own patches for the Forum software?
To wit: "The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.", repeatedly; looking up the implied CVE, there are some measures in place which mitigate the stated problem, though it has not been removed entirely. I would guess that the answer to the second would depend on who "we" happens to be.

YumeWizard wrote:
Tony0945 wrote:
I don't see the concern. Why should this forum have greater security than my bank, which uses passwords that are case-insensitive and are strictly alpha-numeric? If someone does crack my forum account, what can happen other than some embarrassment. Don't want to venture into politics, but even hillary's private e-mail server that had USA classified information on it wasn't secure.

It's only a forum password. Don't make it too difficult to sign up.


It's certainly difficult to argue against the iron-clad logic of your "this one website has bad security, why should any website have good security?" argument but I'll do my best.

None of what I've seen discussed so far would make signing up anymore difficult so your statement about making signing up more difficult doesn't make any sense and only serves to take away from your argument.

You're right about nobody caring that your account gets hacked, I wouldn't care about mine either aside from the inconvenience. Like someone else mentioned I also do not reuse passwords but I feel like you've all missed a very big point.
I'm sure most of you have experienced watching another project make the rounds for bad practices/being hacked, I'm sure you've seen all of the negative attention it brings to the whole project and the loss of trust from current and potential users. Maybe you no longer think very highly of a project due to stupid mistakes they've made in the past. I know lots of people feel that way and I have seen projects lose lots of steam after being run through the muck on news websites/discussion websites after such an incident.

I also feel like it's really unfair to the people who put lots of their freetime into other parts of the Gentoo project to have the whole projects name run through the mud because 1 part of the Gentoo project for whatever reason seems to be quite neglected.


The forums could stand to be updated regardless of whether you think mountains of bad publicity and ridicule is a big deal or not for a Project that relies on contributions from the public, the current software is long EOL/it's missing many convenient features of current forum software/the security features are quite outdated(utilizing MD5 hashing for password protection)/once the new Forum software is in place it would be a good time to plan out the future of the Forums and plans to make sure they're never as outdated as they currently are.
To put none too fine a point on this: trolling and strawmen do not make for good foundations for collaboration. Regardless of however valid your points might otherwise be.
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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
That is a thesis, not a question.

Thanks, can you please respond to my thesis? Or maybe just the part that is a question?


desultory wrote:
That is a statement, not a question; the statement is presently factually correct.

Thanks, even though it wasn't requested by me and you clearly understood what I'd meant I'm glad you were able to inform me that I should not have labled these "Some questions". I'll be sure to take my forum posts more seriously in the future so you can focus on answering my questions vs giving me free English lessons.


desultory wrote:
Yes.

Some examples?


desultory wrote:
To wit: "The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.", repeatedly; looking up the implied CVE, there are some measures in place which mitigate the stated problem, though it has not been removed entirely. I would guess that the answer to the second would depend on who "we" happens to be.

I was referring to "we" as the Gentoo community.


desultory wrote:
Define better, give examples.

Is there any MAJOR reason that we have not upgraded the Forums yet? Some kind of incompatibility or something like that?


desultory wrote:
To put none too fine a point on this: trolling and strawmen do not make for good foundations for collaboration. Regardless of however valid your points might otherwise be.

If I'm responding to a meritless shitpost I might be a little rude, sorry. As for the small portion of my post where I exaggerated what Tony said to make a point, was it really enough to call me out on building a straw man? What he said was pretty stupid(sorry, I mean "uninformed") and anyone who has had anything to do with security would not be taking what he said as a serious position(common sense?). So I exaggerated what he said to poke fun at it and moved on, I don't feel that was significant enough for you to mention it.

I do my best to not make shitposts, I might be slightly rude in my response to a(imo) dumb opinion but if I make a decent argument for what I'm saying and it has merit I don't feel bad about it. People were harsh with me when I talked out of my ass and personally I think it was a good thing. I also think it's pretty hypocritical for you to call me out on trolling while you get uneccesarily pedantic over the wording of my questions(which I would wager most people would consider trolling even if you conveniently do not) to the point of not responding to them even though you knew what I was trying to say(Not a very useful response in the context of what you're replying to is it?).

Was I rude? Yes I was, but I stuck to the topic at hand in my "rudeness"(I didn't go after him for grammar, wording or spelling that's for sure) as well as trying to provide useful information in response to what was imo a shitpost("uninformed" post). You on the other hand took a post where I was simply asking questions with the intent of trying to help resolve a problem and trolled me over grammar/wording/etc to the point of not even answering the question. I'd say that's not very good for collaboration.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What he said was pretty stupid


What you suggest is like renting an armored car to go shopping because you have $20 in your wallet.

The big problem in these forums is weeding out the spam.


Last edited by Tony0945 on Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I saw ANY change to the forums, it would be better search. I'll have to agree with others that tight security isn't terribly necessary here. There just isn't that much at risk. I use "keepassx", so none of my passwords are reused, anyway.

To be fair, I haven't tried lately, maybe they have improved it. But I learned years ago that if I want to do any difficult search I go to google and use the "site:forums.gentoo.org" prefix.
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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Quote:
What he said was pretty stupid

What you suggest is like renting an armored car to go shopping because you have $20 in your wallet.

The big problem in these forums is weeding out the spam.


It's more like if you already have an armored car there are 0 negatives to using it over a regular car and you live in a bad neighborhood(but yeah lets not take the armored car). You're pretty confident in your stupidity which would explain why after using these forums for as long as you have the quality of your posts are the same as a 9yr olds first visit.


depontius wrote:
If I saw ANY change to the forums, it would be better search. I'll have to agree with others that tight security isn't terribly necessary here. There just isn't that much at risk. I use "keepassx", so none of my passwords are reused, anyway.

To be fair, I haven't tried lately, maybe they have improved it. But I learned years ago that if I want to do any difficult search I go to google and use the "site:forums.gentoo.org" prefix.

The problem is that what you're referring laughably to as "tight security" is entry level common security practices that take practically 0 effort to implement if you're setting up new software(pw hashes) or simply removing the line of code that sends your password to you in plaintext over email(which is all I've seen suggested so far).

How can you call "SecurityForBabies" stuff like not using MD5 for pw hashes "tight security", it's step 1 and there is nothing "tight" about it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YumeWizard wrote:
Is there any MAJOR reason that we have not upgraded the Forums yet?

Lots of people keep crying that it needs to be done, but not one of them has stepped forward to do the work.
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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
YumeWizard wrote:
Is there any MAJOR reason that we have not upgraded the Forums yet?

Lots of people keep crying that it needs to be done, but not one of them has stepped forward to do the work.

Not really, on page 1 of this thread someone has already made a bug report and produced a patch for the email issue(https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=431106) which has been seemingly ignored for close to a year. Evidently there is already SOMETHING going on with the forums(according to desulotry) but it's just not being discussed publicly as far as I can see which is why I'm trying to get some information on what is going on.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The forum security is fine, let's keep it relative/in perspective.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YumeWizard wrote:
Thanks, can you please respond to my thesis? Or maybe just the part that is a question?
You have an opinion, I have neither need nor desire to change it.
YumeWizard wrote:
Some examples?
https://www.phpbb.com/ https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewforum.php?f=451
YumeWizard wrote:
Is there any MAJOR reason that we have not upgraded the Forums yet? Some kind of incompatibility or something like that?
I have already provided you with sufficient reference matter to answer those questions, but since you have shown such high regard for time invested by others: yes, and yes.
YumeWizard wrote:
If I'm responding to a meritless shitpost I might be a little rude, sorry.
You can be sorry or you can be better, the latter has value.
YumeWizard wrote:
As for the small portion of my post where I exaggerated what Tony said to make a point, was it really enough to call me out on building a straw man?
Yes.
YumeWizard wrote:
What he said was pretty stupid(sorry, I mean "uninformed") and anyone who has had anything to do with security would not be taking what he said as a serious position(common sense?). So I exaggerated what he said to poke fun at it and moved on, I don't feel that was significant enough for you to mention it.
My opinion on the matter evidently differs from yours, in this context mine bears more weight.
YumeWizard wrote:
I do my best to not make shitposts, I might be slightly rude in my response to a(imo) dumb opinion but if I make a decent argument for what I'm saying and it has merit I don't feel bad about it.
While you are making such efforts to avoid "shitposts", do bear in mind that site rules trump your feelings.
YumeWizard wrote:
People were harsh with me when I talked out of my ass and personally I think it was a good thing.
Are you trying to tell me that I should have been "harsh" with you?
YumeWizard wrote:
I also think it's pretty hypocritical for you to call me out on trolling while you get uneccesarily pedantic over the wording of my questions(which I would wager most people would consider trolling even if you conveniently do not) to the point of not responding to them even though you knew what I was trying to say(Not a very useful response in the context of what you're replying to is it?).
This might come as a surprise, but that orange icon by my username indicates that I am, among other things, a moderator here: administering gentle corrections is part of that role.
YumeWizard wrote:
Was I rude? Yes I was, but
No buts, you were being rude for no reason other than to stroke your own ego. That will not work for very long here.
YumeWizard wrote:
I stuck to the topic at hand in my "rudeness"(I didn't go after him for grammar, wording or spelling that's for sure) as well as trying to provide useful information in response to what was imo a shitpost("uninformed" post). You on the other hand took a post where I was simply asking questions with the intent of trying to help resolve a problem and trolled me over grammar/wording/etc to the point of not even answering the question.
You did a grand total of no research, insisted others spoon feed you exactly what you wanted, chose to violate forum rules on a whim and when you got fairly gently chided (given your response to Tony0945) you decided to pout instead of taking correction like an adult. You are, thusfar, doing a fine job of branding yourself as socially useless.
YumeWizard wrote:
I'd say that's not very good for collaboration.
See, here is the rub, as it is you are doing all of the complaining and none of the work, so your ability to continue to "contribute" is totally unfettered at the moment.

YumeWizard wrote:
It's more like if you already have an armored car there are 0 negatives to using it over a regular car and you live in a bad neighborhood(but yeah lets not take the armored car).
To take that analogy just the slightest bit farther, you assume that you have unlimited fuel and maintenance resources. Hint: while our hosting is quite generously donated, treating it as limitless would be at the least boorish and would likely, quite justly, leave us looking for a new place to host the site.
YumeWizard wrote:
You're pretty confident in your stupidity which would explain why after using these forums for as long as you have the quality of your posts are the same as a 9yr olds first visit.
See, this is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to gently warn you about. Since gentle does not work with you, consider yourself formally warned: do not do that here.
YumeWizard wrote:
The problem is that what you're referring laughably to as "tight security" is entry level common security practices that take practically 0 effort to implement if you're setting up new software(pw hashes) or simply removing the line of code that sends your password to you in plaintext over email(which is all I've seen suggested so far).
Again with the things that might surprise you, but this is not a new installation, and users are actually a factor, even ones that use languages that you personally do not.
YumeWizard wrote:
How can you call "SecurityForBabies" stuff like not using MD5 for pw hashes "tight security", it's step 1 and there is nothing "tight" about it?
You do realize that you are essentially begging for a grammar nazi response to that question, right?

I realize this is somewhat out of order, but it seemed to fit better this way.
depontius wrote:
If I saw ANY change to the forums, it would be better search. I'll have to agree with others that tight security isn't terribly necessary here. There just isn't that much at risk. I use "keepassx", so none of my passwords are reused, anyway.

To be fair, I haven't tried lately, maybe they have improved it. But I learned years ago that if I want to do any difficult search I go to google and use the "site:forums.gentoo.org" prefix.
The site:foo syntax also works with other search engines, such as DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, and Bing. The site search should, in theory, get somewhat better in the not too distant future, though there may be some downtime involved at least with regard to searching posts.
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YumeWizard
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
YumeWizard wrote:
Thanks, can you please respond to my thesis? Or maybe just the part that is a question?
You have an opinion, I have neither need nor desire to change it.
YumeWizard wrote:
Some examples?
https://www.phpbb.com/ https://www.phpbb.com/community/viewforum.php?f=451
YumeWizard wrote:
Is there any MAJOR reason that we have not upgraded the Forums yet? Some kind of incompatibility or something like that?
I have already provided you with sufficient reference matter to answer those questions, but since you have shown such high regard for time invested by others: yes, and yes.
YumeWizard wrote:
If I'm responding to a meritless shitpost I might be a little rude, sorry.
You can be sorry or you can be better, the latter has value.
YumeWizard wrote:
As for the small portion of my post where I exaggerated what Tony said to make a point, was it really enough to call me out on building a straw man?
Yes.
YumeWizard wrote:
What he said was pretty stupid(sorry, I mean "uninformed") and anyone who has had anything to do with security would not be taking what he said as a serious position(common sense?). So I exaggerated what he said to poke fun at it and moved on, I don't feel that was significant enough for you to mention it.
My opinion on the matter evidently differs from yours, in this context mine bears more weight.
YumeWizard wrote:
I do my best to not make shitposts, I might be slightly rude in my response to a(imo) dumb opinion but if I make a decent argument for what I'm saying and it has merit I don't feel bad about it.
While you are making such efforts to avoid "shitposts", do bear in mind that site rules trump your feelings.
YumeWizard wrote:
People were harsh with me when I talked out of my ass and personally I think it was a good thing.
Are you trying to tell me that I should have been "harsh" with you?
YumeWizard wrote:
I also think it's pretty hypocritical for you to call me out on trolling while you get uneccesarily pedantic over the wording of my questions(which I would wager most people would consider trolling even if you conveniently do not) to the point of not responding to them even though you knew what I was trying to say(Not a very useful response in the context of what you're replying to is it?).
This might come as a surprise, but that orange icon by my username indicates that I am, among other things, a moderator here: administering gentle corrections is part of that role.
YumeWizard wrote:
Was I rude? Yes I was, but
No buts, you were being rude for no reason other than to stroke your own ego. That will not work for very long here.
YumeWizard wrote:
I stuck to the topic at hand in my "rudeness"(I didn't go after him for grammar, wording or spelling that's for sure) as well as trying to provide useful information in response to what was imo a shitpost("uninformed" post). You on the other hand took a post where I was simply asking questions with the intent of trying to help resolve a problem and trolled me over grammar/wording/etc to the point of not even answering the question.
You did a grand total of no research, insisted others spoon feed you exactly what you wanted, chose to violate forum rules on a whim and when you got fairly gently chided (given your response to Tony0945) you decided to pout instead of taking correction like an adult. You are, thusfar, doing a fine job of branding yourself as socially useless.
YumeWizard wrote:
I'd say that's not very good for collaboration.
See, here is the rub, as it is you are doing all of the complaining and none of the work, so your ability to continue to "contribute" is totally unfettered at the moment.

YumeWizard wrote:
It's more like if you already have an armored car there are 0 negatives to using it over a regular car and you live in a bad neighborhood(but yeah lets not take the armored car).
To take that analogy just the slightest bit farther, you assume that you have unlimited fuel and maintenance resources. Hint: while our hosting is quite generously donated, treating it as limitless would be at the least boorish and would likely, quite justly, leave us looking for a new place to host the site.
YumeWizard wrote:
You're pretty confident in your stupidity which would explain why after using these forums for as long as you have the quality of your posts are the same as a 9yr olds first visit.
See, this is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to gently warn you about. Since gentle does not work with you, consider yourself formally warned: do not do that here.
YumeWizard wrote:
The problem is that what you're referring laughably to as "tight security" is entry level common security practices that take practically 0 effort to implement if you're setting up new software(pw hashes) or simply removing the line of code that sends your password to you in plaintext over email(which is all I've seen suggested so far).
Again with the things that might surprise you, but this is not a new installation, and users are actually a factor, even ones that use languages that you personally do not.
YumeWizard wrote:
How can you call "SecurityForBabies" stuff like not using MD5 for pw hashes "tight security", it's step 1 and there is nothing "tight" about it?
You do realize that you are essentially begging for a grammar nazi response to that question, right?

I realize this is somewhat out of order, but it seemed to fit better this way.
depontius wrote:
If I saw ANY change to the forums, it would be better search. I'll have to agree with others that tight security isn't terribly necessary here. There just isn't that much at risk. I use "keepassx", so none of my passwords are reused, anyway.

To be fair, I haven't tried lately, maybe they have improved it. But I learned years ago that if I want to do any difficult search I go to google and use the "site:forums.gentoo.org" prefix.
The site:foo syntax also works with other search engines, such as DuckDuckGo, Yahoo, and Bing. The site search should, in theory, get somewhat better in the not too distant future, though there may be some downtime involved at least with regard to searching posts.


Jesus you're a terrible admin it's no wonder the part of the project you manage is in such shambles.

When the hell did I ever do anything like "You did a grand total of no research, insisted others spoon feed you exactly what you wanted", the only things I asked you about were things that I couldn't find information on such as the current upgrade path for the Forums. I'd like you to show any information on the questions that I asked which could be found from searching instead of just spouting shit you autistic fuck.
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kurly
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

User: YumeWizard
Topic: forums.gentoo.org password security
Post: post 7944352
Reason: obvious troll is obvious

Thanks, pilla got to that before I did -- NeddySeagoon
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from "forums.gentoo.org password security", aside from kurly's post which was from the reports topic.

Locked.
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