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Bigun
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.


Darth Vader wrote:

Escape is not his plan.


Carnage is.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.


Darth Vader wrote:

Escape is not his plan.


Carnage is.


[DV Voice]
Yes, we will crush these school shooters en mass. Their lives are of no consequence.
[/DV Voice]
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should also have machine gun nests and watch towers at school.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
They should also have machine gun nests and watch towers at school.

Exploding neck collars.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a good idea, provided they are adequately and frequently trained. We also need to stop over-reacting to the occasional act of violence. Just because we'd prefer to think we live in a world where bad things never happen doesn't mean we do, or that we can. Sometimes the supposed "cure" is worse than the disease. Personally, I was embarrassed by my "shocked" countrymen after 9/11, who apparently were living in ignorance that such things can happen at any time. Same thing during the "D.C. Sniper" episode. People come to terms with mortality, understand large numbers, and embrace reality.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.


Darth Vader wrote:

Escape is not his plan.


Carnage is.

Yeah, and not being able to casually blow defenseless people away one after the other by the dozens will reduce the carnage. What's your solution, make people even more defenseless? Great plan. :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you look at all the mass shootings, there are two things in common.

1. Armed lunatic.
2. Gun free zone.

As soon as they are confronted with armed resistance, the murderers tend to commit suicide.


I've lost all patience for any mindless anti-gun leftist bullshit argument against this. GFY.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
When you look at all the mass shootings, there are two things in common.

1. Armed lunatic.
2. Gun free zone.

As soon as they are confronted with armed resistance, the murderers tend to commit suicide.


I've lost all patience for any mindless anti-gun leftist bullshit argument against this. GFY.


yes, leftists say that having more of 2 while keeping 1 constant solves the problem. :roll:

rightists say that lowering 2 solves the problem. :roll:
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.


Darth Vader wrote:

Escape is not his plan.


Carnage is.

Yeah, and not being able to casually blow defenseless people away one after the other by the dozens will reduce the carnage. What's your solution, make people even more defenseless? Great plan. :roll:


Think about. If someone wants to enter a school and kill people, they will be able to do it no matter how many teachers are armed. You walk into a school, and then a classroom, and hit the adult first. then you can get as many unarmed kids as you want. at this point, 10-15 are dead before anyone knows what happened. The perp will ALWAYS have surprise on their side. The best this will do is lower the total number killed slightly GIVEN that such incidents will happen.

You also run the risk of starting an arms race? If I am a lunatic and think that a handgun will the trick on my school shooting spree, I will upgrade on account of the fact that schools now have armed teachers, or target a school that doesn't have such teachers.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.


Darth Vader wrote:

Escape is not his plan.


Carnage is.

Yeah, and not being able to casually blow defenseless people away one after the other by the dozens will reduce the carnage. What's your solution, make people even more defenseless? Great plan. :roll:


Think about. If someone wants to enter a school and kill people, they will be able to do it no matter how many teachers are armed. You walk into a school, and then a classroom, and hit the adult first. then you can get as many unarmed kids as you want. at this point, 10-15 are dead before anyone knows what happened. The perp will ALWAYS have surprise on their side. The best this will do is lower the total number killed slightly GIVEN that such incidents will happen.

You also run the risk of starting an arms race? If I am a lunatic and think that a handgun will the trick on my school shooting spree, I will upgrade on account of the fact that schools now have armed teachers, or target a school that doesn't have such teachers.


So your plan to even reduce the number of kills is to ban guns.... because criminals will obey the ban? That makes even less sense.

As far as upgrading to a higher grade of gun case goes, let's say they (by some miracle because they are extremely illegal and you would have to pay out the nose for one on the black market) get their hands on a spray-n-pray fully-automatic AK-47 and raid a school, the stupid poor fuck would hit mostly concrete wall as the teacher calmly aims and takes his/her shot. They are HARD to aim, in reality the government did serial killers a favor by making the fully automatic weapons illegal as opposed to semi automatic (one shot, one pull, much more control).

In all honesty, I think just a fair bit of experience with weapons (in knowledge and hands-on) would assist your worldview. Guns are not that scary, but they need to be treated with loads of respect, and does not need to be drawn on any human being without full intentions of killing them in defense of yourself or someone else. Honestly I think the NRA should start overseeing any Hollywood movie to make sure the actors follow gun safety properly so regular Joe-dumbass gets some exposure to proper gun handling. Every time I see someone draw a gun on the big screen with their trigger finger curled on the gun's action, makes me want to slap a liberal.

And opposed to typical liberal worldview, owning a gun does not make you blood-thirsty. I dread the day that I draw my gun for self-defense for any reason, I hope it never happens, I don't want the red tape, blood, or trauma in my life if I can help it. I've known someone who killed another in an MMA tournament with his bare hands, and he still has trouble dealing with it 10 years after the fact, I'd imagine the trauma would be just as great no matter what the weapon is. HOWEVER, if it comes between the safety of my daughter and wife vs. some methed out addict up for a bit of rape and theft, the fucker is dead.... no questions, I'll deal with the nightmares so my little girl and beautiful wife can feel safe because of me, that's what we do.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:

So your plan to even reduce the number of kills is to ban guns.... because criminals will obey the ban? That makes even less sense.


Let's think. Is that really my plan? is my plan to prevent law abiding citizens from having guns? The way to prevent lunatic access to guns is not by making it illegal for lunatics to have guns (this is the NRA approach, which clearly doesn't work), but to restrict the supply of guns. Criminals don't follow the law, so let's make it hard for them to get guns. You can try to simply restrict access of guns to this subgroup, but I think the market is too flooded with guns to have any effective control. It's obvious that if you can't get a gun illegally, just go get it on the street.

Guns aren't drugs. They are pretty big and you don't get the same bang per gram like you do with drugs. Furthermore, the US is a major supplier of guns. So, unlike drugs, you can actually effect the supply through your own legal system.

Quote:

In all honesty, I think just a fair bit of experience with weapons (in knowledge and hands-on) would assist your worldview. Guns are not that scary, but they need to be treated with loads of respect, and does not need to be drawn on any human being without full intentions of killing them in defense of yourself or someone else. Honestly I think the NRA should start overseeing any Hollywood movie to make sure the actors follow gun safety properly so regular Joe-dumbass gets some exposure to proper gun handling. Every time I see someone draw a gun on the big screen with their trigger finger curled on the gun's action, makes me want to slap a liberal.


me handling guns isn't going to make them less deadly. At best, it might help explain the fascination with them, but probably not.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Guns aren't drugs. They are pretty big and you don't get the same bang per gram like you do with drugs. Furthermore, the US is a major supplier of guns. So, unlike drugs, you can actually effect the supply through your own legal system.


Now you have cut off your own nose to spite your face. The only people left with guns is a government controlled military, which we have established here time and time again isn't trusted by American's as a hole (with exception of McGruff).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
juniper wrote:
Guns aren't drugs. They are pretty big and you don't get the same bang per gram like you do with drugs. Furthermore, the US is a major supplier of guns. So, unlike drugs, you can actually effect the supply through your own legal system.


Now you have cut off your own nose to spite your face. The only people left with guns is a government controlled military, which we have established here time and time again isn't trusted by American's as a hole (with exception of McGruff).


disarm your govt. or use your guns when their drones come after you.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
juniper wrote:
Guns aren't drugs. They are pretty big and you don't get the same bang per gram like you do with drugs. Furthermore, the US is a major supplier of guns. So, unlike drugs, you can actually effect the supply through your own legal system.


Now you have cut off your own nose to spite your face. The only people left with guns is a government controlled military, which we have established here time and time again isn't trusted by American's as a hole (with exception of McGruff).


disarm your govt. or use your guns when their drones come after you.


Again, guns against airborne targets is nearly useless.

If we disarm our government, we invite invasion, we have several communist governments that would cut their left nut out at a chance to overthrow us, our only choice is to stay an armed responsible country. Cut the TV's off collectively, let Hollywood starve and feed on itself until it resembles Detroit and then we can truly "move forward".
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Let's think. Is that really my plan? is my plan to prevent law abiding citizens from having guns? The way to prevent lunatic access to guns is not by making it illegal for lunatics to have guns (this is the NRA approach, which clearly doesn't work), but to restrict the supply of guns. Criminals don't follow the law, so let's make it hard for them to get guns. You can try to simply restrict access of guns to this subgroup, but I think the market is too flooded with guns to have any effective control. It's obvious that if you can't get a gun illegally, just go get it on the street.


Also, this plan hasn't worked for you either.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

Bigun wrote:
juniper wrote:
Let's think. Is that really my plan? is my plan to prevent law abiding citizens from having guns? The way to prevent lunatic access to guns is not by making it illegal for lunatics to have guns (this is the NRA approach, which clearly doesn't work), but to restrict the supply of guns. Criminals don't follow the law, so let's make it hard for them to get guns. You can try to simply restrict access of guns to this subgroup, but I think the market is too flooded with guns to have any effective control. It's obvious that if you can't get a gun illegally, just go get it on the street.


Also, this plan hasn't worked for you either.


1) nobody claimed it would eliminate all shootings.
2) that happened 17 years ago (I believe it prompted the firearm ban). cumbria is more recent.
3) you guys have about 3-5 a year.

and

england/wales with approximately 55 million people, had 550 murders or so last year. Chicago last year (population 5 millioin?) had 505. england/wales does contain england/wales murder capital of London.

we have knifings here. the fact is, it is hard to get a gun, even for criminals.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
1) nobody claimed it would eliminate all shootings.
2) that happened 17 years ago (I believe it prompted the firearm ban). cumbria is more recent.
3) you guys have about 3-5 a year.

and

england/wales with approximately 55 million people, had 550 murders or so last year. Chicago last year (population 5 millioin?) had 505. england/wales does contain england/wales murder capital of London.

we have knifings here. the fact is, it is hard to get a gun, even for criminals.


But still possible, even for a high price.

Also, Chicago as fairly strict gun laws, it's done them no good.

Let's agree here: gun control (at any level) against law abiding citizens isn't as good as just outright arming law-abiding citizens, sure the ultimate utopia would be to melt every one of them down on the planet, but that isn't going to happen... so.....
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
Bigun wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/03/08/sd-governor-signs-bill-allowing-teachers-to-be-armed/

For those trying to make the case that it will make things worse.... we at least now have a case to go by.

I'm looking forward to the first stupid fucker to try to shoot up a school in SD once this gets enacted.


Darth Vader wrote:

Escape is not his plan.


Carnage is.

Yeah, and not being able to casually blow defenseless people away one after the other by the dozens will reduce the carnage. What's your solution, make people even more defenseless? Great plan. :roll:


Think about. If someone wants to enter a school and kill people, they will be able to do it no matter how many teachers are armed. You walk into a school, and then a classroom, and hit the adult first. then you can get as many unarmed kids as you want. at this point, 10-15 are dead before anyone knows what happened. The perp will ALWAYS have surprise on their side. The best this will do is lower the total number killed slightly GIVEN that such incidents will happen.

So that's bad? Reducing the number of children who get massacred is bad? This is what you are saying. And your alternative is what? Something completely ineffective? You're like somebody arguing that we shouldn't bother to put seatbelts in our cars because you're still going to get hurt in a crash. I say put a cork in it unless you actually have a better idea that will actually work, rather than some inane pipe-dream.

juniper wrote:
You also run the risk of starting an arms race? If I am a lunatic and think that a handgun will the trick on my school shooting spree, I will upgrade on account of the fact that schools now have armed teachers, or target a school that doesn't have such teachers.

How does somebody "upgrade" from what the Anders Breviks, James Holmeses, and Timothy McVeighs of the world are already doing? Self-defense does not cause an "arms race", it's a basic human right. I'm all for making it harder for criminals (violent offenders) and the insane (people who are actually a danger to others) to get guns, but that's not going to put an end to this or "solve the problem" in any sense of the word. The real causes must be addressed, and people like you are part of the problem, by refusing to even think about the real causes.

Furthermore, if you're going to invest energy in solving the world's violence problems, why not focus on what's really a problem? How about authoritarian collectivists killing an average of 10 million of their own people a year over the past century? How about Europeans perpetrating a 2,500 year reign of violence and terror, of constant exploitation and virtually non-stop war, on the entire planet?

This is nothing but domesticated sheep being tricked into bleating for more sheep-dogs to snap at their heels, rather than growing a pair of horns and living free like they were meant to.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah, and not being able to casually blow defenseless people away one after the other by the dozens will reduce the carnage.

It's just fighting the symptoms, when it would be better to address the root cause(s).
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: South Dakota just ended school shootings in their state Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah, and not being able to casually blow defenseless people away one after the other by the dozens will reduce the carnage.

It's just fighting the symptoms, when it would be better to address the root cause(s).

I agree, but why not do both? Moreover, nobody wants to address the root causes (some of which I noted above), and recognizing that availability of firearms to law-abiding citizens is not one of them. The root causes are being ignored, while this is being used by authoritarians as an excuse to disarm the people.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so you take out the teacher first. Now you have to guns to work with. Awesome. Masscre the class, ammo low? No problem, another teacher with a gun is nearby. One shot later, you have again plenty of ammo to continue your killing spree....
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claim: the optimal probability of a school massacre is nonzero.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Claim: the optimal probability of a school massacre is nonzero.

Concur

It's like the optimal probability of an airline hijacking or bombing. To make it zero, we'd have to require everybody to ship all their luggage separately, be quarantined for 24 hours prior to flight, under and upper and lower gastrointestinal X-ray procedure, receive a laparoscopic inspection of all body cavities, go through an MRI scan, receive a thorough, car-wash-style disinfecting scrub-down, be administered intravenous antibiotics, change into government-manufactured disposable garments, and submit to being drugged to the point of helplessness throughout the flight.

Then, the minute you obsessively go completely oveboard on that, or school shootings, some other fad of violent lashing-out takes over, like poisoning water supplies, trash-can bombing, or plowing into crowds with automobiles.

You can't solve this by banning guns, and banning guns is a violation of citizens' rights.
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