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John-Boy
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Location: Desperately seeking moksha in all the wrong places
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 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | The UK are just another one of EU's beggar states . |
How's that Hellenic thing working out for you ?
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McGruff
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Joined: 28 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahenobarbi wrote: | | Mind explaining why "leaving would be utterly insane" ? |
If the UK goes out, they'll still have to try to trade with Europe as best they can without the benefits of membership; there is nothing else to take its place.
The UK will lose a lot of investment which sees the country as a preferred base to enter the European market.
The UK will have no influence over economic and political decisions taken by the EU which affect British interests.
It is simply delusional to think there is a life outside the EU which could be better for the British people. That's not really a problem for the Tory party who don't actually care about living standards for the masses so long as there are business opportunities for their chums and it's certainly not a problem for the loony fringe who are driving this idea forward. To a certain nationalistic, extreme-right mindset, the idea of "taking orders" from socialist European countries is just intolerable, whatever the consequences.
Utterly insane. |
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notageek
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Joined: 05 Jun 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Before anything else, before everything else, tell me, is Scotland independent yet?
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | It is simply delusional to think there is a life outside the EU which could be better for the British people. |
Free trade agreements existed before the EU, they'll exist afterwards - if there's a market
people will trade.
We'll be better off and have control over our own sovereignty
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McGruff
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Trade with whom? |
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wildhorse
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Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Trade what? Financial products?  |
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 763
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | | It is simply delusional to think there is a life outside the EU which could be better for the British people. |
Free trade agreements existed before the EU, they'll exist afterwards - if there's a market
people will trade.
We'll be better off and have control over our own sovereignty |
the main problem is, I believe, to remain in the EEA will force us to abide by the EU rules. But as non members we would be powerless to affect them. Sounds like a bum deal to me. |
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| wildhorse wrote: | | Trade what? Financial products? |
That is not all that we have to manufacture - niche industries -
we also warned the EU about the car crash that is Greece BTW (since
you took aim at the fiscal markets), but you didn't listen.
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 205
Location: somewhere in Renziland.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | energyman76b wrote: | | The UK are just another one of EU's beggar states . |
How's that Hellenic thing working out for you ? |
Too be honest there is a lot more respect for Greek, Spaniards and Portuguese that despite being greatly hit by the crisis (with all their faults of course) are willing to go on with the union and solve the problems all together than for the selfish UKian 
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | But as non members we would be powerless to affect them. Sounds like a bum deal to me. |
The free market will find a balance, away from the collective. In return we get
our own jurisdiction and control over our own borders (which isn't jingoism it's common
sense, there are only so many angels that can dance after all)
You know, I'm not against trade and generally getting along, without Borgification. Why the hell do
we have to climb into bed with each other ? Why when it is proven that it's not working
(Greece) - do we continue with the charade ?
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | are willing to go on with the union and solve the problems all together than for the selfish UKian |
Greece ? That's the country with the 'Golden Dawn' party (or some such isn't it ?)
The manifesto of which is 'bugger off EU' ? I do paraphrase slightly here & how sharper than
a serpent's tooth.
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | John-Boy wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | | It is simply delusional to think there is a life outside the EU which could be better for the British people. |
Free trade agreements existed before the EU, they'll exist afterwards - if there's a market
people will trade.
We'll be better off and have control over our own sovereignty |
the main problem is, I believe, to remain in the EEA will force us to abide by the EU rules. But as non members we would be powerless to affect them. Sounds like a bum deal to me. |
That is my concern. The UK (and Finland) have really pushed for a more open market in the EU, I really would dread to think what francified trade laws would have existed today without the constant pressure from the UK.
Borders and "Human Rights" however do take the piss |
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 205
Location: somewhere in Renziland.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | are willing to go on with the union and solve the problems all together than for the selfish UKian |
Greece ? That's the country with the 'Golden Dawn' party (or some such isn't it ?)
The manifesto of which is 'bugger off EU' ? I do paraphrase slightly here & how sharper than
a serpent's tooth. |
Well, you know, it is possible that some nazi-inspired parties exists elsewhere in the EU, it is just a sign of good integration
I am also pretty sure you didn't read at all their manifesto, they are more interested in immigrants than leaving the EU.
And you know why Greece is full of immigrants? Because the EU is failing to protect its external borders. And you know why the EU is failing to protect its borders?
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | But as non members we would be powerless to affect them. Sounds like a bum deal to me. |
The free market will find a balance, away from the collective. In return we get
our own jurisdiction and control over our own borders (which isn't jingoism it's common
sense, there are only so many angels that can dance after all)
You know, I'm not against trade and generally getting along, without Borgification. Why the hell do
we have to climb into bed with each other ? Why when it is proven that it's not working
(Greece) - do we continue with the charade ? |
I don't disagree. I just think what will happen is the the EU will thumb there nose at us at every opportunity and we will have to suck it up because as non-members we will have to comply to access their market.
I think the EU should have far less powers. But losing the access to the single market will really hurt us. Also, the Greece argument is more an argument against a single currency, not a single market. |
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erm67
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Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 205
Location: somewhere in Renziland.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: |
I don't disagree. I just think what will happen is the the EU will thumb there nose at us at every opportunity and we will have to suck it up because as non-members we will have to comply to access their market. |
Well like everywhere you know, import regulations exists everywhere ...
| juniper wrote: |
I think the EU should have far less powers. But losing the access to the single market will really hurt us.
Also, the Greece argument is more an argument against a single currency, not a single market. |
The problem is the you keep confusing the single market and the European Union, it is called Union because it is supposed to go beyond the single market. Another very likely scenario is that the single market as it is will survive with the UK inside and a separate Union will go on with those interested, it almost impossible to avoid a development like this.
If necessary it will be the eurozone and those interested that will secede from the EU.
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True ignorance is not the absence of knowledge, but the refusal to acquire it.
A posse ad esse non valet consequentia
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aCOSwt
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Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2537
Location: Hilbert space
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| John-Boy wrote: | | We'll never be offered a say-so |
Fortunately !
| John-Boy wrote: | | not while there are influential people making money from various EU related positions. |
Unfortunately !
| John-Boy wrote: | | We need to leave |
Who is "We" ? I mean, does it include future generations of Englanders on which "your" hic & nunc opinion will impact ?
I make no doubt that the adhesion to the eu must be and complete and a free choice.
But whose choice is it ?
Mr Smith's one ?
I don't think so. That sort of decision has to be taken by people who get a (non-interested) vision for the future. People who get a clear historical and political conscience.
If a referendum is organized then the decision will be the opinion of individuals who do not qualify and are misinformed by biased mass medias and might change their mind the morning after.
If a referendum is organized, will it be actually motivated by the question itself ? No! Motivated by the calculus some politician made in order to get reelected !
Whatever the result of a referendum, it just cannot be the good one !
I do trust in the virtues of the Republic but... about these questions... really... my opinion is that you should let your Majesty the Queen decide !
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