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MustrumR
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: GNOME 3.7 requires systemd Reply with quote

http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/core/3.7/3.7.1/NEWS
Quote:

========================================
gnome-settings-daemon
========================================

=============
Version 3.7.1
=============

Daemon:
...
- Use logind for suspending and rebooting the system
- Require logind for session tracking

...

It's systemd-logind by the way.
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LiamOS
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't really say I'm surprised... Just disappointed. I used to like the gnome project.
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MustrumR
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use systemd so I don't care. Just wanted to tell you.
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init_6
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what? Even gnome 3.6.* is not in main tree… only in overlay. and even then not all.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MustrumR ... and this is a fact that has been known since May 2011 ... so you missed the party.

I'm old enough to remember when Microsoft was slighted for its IE intergration, the resulting anti-trust case, and the judgement of "monopolization" (in violation of Sections 1 and 2 of the Sherman Act) ... in short, the prevention of others (including Netscape, and Linux) from competing by fixing API's, and abusing its relationships with OEM's, in order to manitain a monopoly. The argument provided by MS was that IE was "inextricably linked" to the OS, and "inovativation" required that integration.

Now we have a DE that depends on a specific init system, and the same rational is used to justify it. Not suprisingly this move comes from Redhat, and not suprisingly the likes of gnome, freedesktop, systemd, etc, all recieve "sponsorship" from RH, and not supprisingly, it all follows some predictable monopolistic logic.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Not surprisingly, it all follows some predictable monopolistic logic.

That's the nature of corporations: incumbents will always put up barriers to entry to new players (eg: patents.)

RedHat is not a small company, and it is in their financial interest to make sure as many enterprises as possible think "RedHat" when they think "Linux". What better way, than by having every "innovative" technology come from their programmers, and even better if it doesn't work properly anywhere else: that just shows RedHat must be the best, to the executive mindset (which knows nothing at all about computers, even more so in most technology companies: they're usually there to present the right image to outside investors.)

Corporations will always seek to exploit, be that "consumers" (or "people" as we used to be known), the environment, governments or wars: it's their "fiduciary responsibility to shareholders." (This was the reasoning put forward during recent US healthcare scandals.)

Anyone who thinks differently just gets fired or demoted to a sh1tcan position, or their company goes bankrupt, since the banks (who have always lent money printed out of thin air, thanks to Fractional Reserve banking) won't support them, but will pump money into exploitative businesses, who yield a higher return once they are part of the cartel. And all that requires is sufficient capital, which banks get for free, and lend at interest.

It does not matter what principles the founders start out with: as soon as they have shareholders, the "fiduciary responsibility" trumps all other concerns.

Everything else is just marketing.
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rorgoroth
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has Ubuntu caved in to systemd yet? I believe they use something else (upstart?), as well as gnome3 as the base for their desktop... Maybe there will be hope for using gnome3 without systemd in the future :)
Not that I really care what happens to either of them if I'm honest.

~Another systemd user :P
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard that Canonical have stopped (or will stop) following latest Gnome development, because of lack of communication, bug fixing and feature breakage. So maybe they will also just stay on 3.6 much longer and backport the hell out of 3.8.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
That's the nature of corporations: incumbents will always put up barriers to entry to new players (eg: patents.)

steveL ... I mostly agree with your analysis (actually, I'd go further in some regards, particularly on the nature of "interest", and where the sum paid on the principle actually, or magically, comes from ... but that is perhaps for some other time). That given, I still think there is something altogether dishonest about the behavior of many linux users, and advocates, in that they want to call out MS, Nvidia, etc, etc, for their "proprietory" behavior, but when the very same behavoir, ie "vendor lock in", comes packaged in the guise of "inovation" (or what-have-you) they are (mostly) silent. That was really my intention in the above, and in that regard I don't think the blame lies entirely with the likes of Redhat, but the users also.

best ... khay
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting, but I seriously doubt there are any Gnome 3 users who would prefer not to use systemd.
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some around here who do. ;)
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
There are some around here who do. ;)

Well in the future, I suppose I will have to keep from making over-reaching generalizations then! :)
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Dominique_71
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care. I never used Gnome more than 5 minutes.

First, I cannot get a decent mouse focus policy with it, something like click to focus without raise, raise/unraise on the window title bar.

Second, I never understood the frenetic efforts that was put into pulseaudio, when we can do the same with ALSA + JACK + the snd_loopback module, that with something than pulseaudio will never archive, or maybe in 10 years, but is a must for any serious audio work: a constant sound latency.

Third, I removed the fully idiotic "take_my_freedom-ware.tm" and "break_my_good_working_system-ware.tm" policykit from my system. This removed the whole of Gnome and pulseaudio. Very 8)

So, I am not surprised by this new idiotic Gnome dependency. :lol:

GNU/Linux is outstanding for a server. But on the desktop side, it is a lot of frenetic efforts made to reproduce the paradigm of big $corporations: the never the better. No matter if it add no new functionality but consume system resources instead, the power of the machines will be increased.

For info, the gimp on AROS running in virtualbox on one cpu core, is starting at least 4 times faster, than the gentoo version of gimp running natively in the same 4 cores machine.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Gentoo Chat to Unsupported Software as it's not currently in the Portage tree.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot: the next Debian release will not use Gnome any more for its default desktop. :wink:
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rorgoroth
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
I've heard that Canonical have stopped (or will stop) following latest Gnome development, because of lack of communication, bug fixing and feature breakage. So maybe they will also just stay on 3.6 much longer and backport the hell out of 3.8.

Interesting, I look forward to seeing how that all pans out.

Dominique_71 wrote:
I forgot: the next Debian release will not use Gnome any more for its default desktop. :wink:

Interesting again, it seems this is the source of this information in case anyone else is interested.
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PSYKORGASM wrote:
Dominique_71 wrote:
I forgot: the next Debian release will not use Gnome any more for its default desktop. :wink:

Interesting again, it seems this is the source of this information in case anyone else is interested.

That's obsolete already - Gnome returned to be the 'default' on disc again.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:

That's obsolete already - Gnome returned to be the 'default' on disc again.

Well that's a relief, it would be terrible if anyone challenged Gnome, the great desktop that it is.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hcaulfield57,

If I have to choose between Gnome and systemd and using another desktop, I will drop Gnome.
I dropped Red Hat for Gentoo, I'm not about to let Red Hat swallow me up again.

I'm old enough to remember the demise of the propriatary workstations before IBM put capital letters into PC.
How long will it be before Red Hat go back to interoperability or become extinct.

Are we just seeing the start of a rerun of computer history?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Neddy what about parallel install of systemd ?

(Or do you think there are trojan horses with red hats apearing? I think it is told about systemd as a red herring story. This might be the main cause of the red hats most people believe to have seen.)
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@NeddySeagoon: I just fail to see what the perceived market is for this software that RedHat is recently pushing. As far as I am aware RedHat's target market is enterprise servers and workstations, unless I'm mistaken I think their making a serious mistake.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@Neddy what about parallel install of systemd ?

(Or do you think there are trojan horses with red hats apearing? I think it is told about systemd as a red herring story. This might be the main cause of the red hats most people believe to have seen.)


Is that another call for zillions unilateral speaking messages about systemd/udev will rule the world because it's the kick ass thing any linux was waiting ?

Please, i know it's to saved us, because we cannot see the light, but could we die without them in silent ?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@Neddy what about parallel install of systemd ?

(Or do you think there are trojan horses with red hats apearing? I think it is told about systemd as a red herring story. This might be the main cause of the red hats most people believe to have seen.)


How about we require that all linux from now on be shipped with the entire KDE bundle as well as openRC? After all, it will give devs more libraries and possibilities. I am sure those who run severs or older computers will not mind the few extra gigs of storage space to make this happen. After all, we need a nice stable system to develop on. And really, what setup can do without Nepomuk? We should require it to be active at all times! it only takes a little bite of ram.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

Why?

Vertical integration is a poor system design concept, so I don't want it at all.
As I've said, internally, in systmd, everything may be nicely compartmentalsed, so its robust east to maintain and test. If that were true, building just parts of it, e.g. just udev, would be easy to support.

The design goes against KISS and teh *NIX idea of one program does one thing and does it well.


hcaulfield57,
I'm with you there.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Or do you think there are trojan horses with red hats apearing? I think it is told about systemd as a red herring story. This might be the main cause of the red hats most people believe to have seen.

You really are extraordinary: you think people don't like systemd or Poettering's other work for some weird conspiracy "red-herring" reason, rather than the reasons several of us have spelt out to you in simple language, over a period of months.

Slavish fanboi-ism is far more foolish than any intuitive, or evidence-based, dislike other people might have of the software "solutions" you espouse.
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