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[SOLVED] Which langage to develop a web site ?
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: [SOLVED] Which langage to develop a web site ? Reply with quote

Hi,
I am new to web developement and I wonder what is the best choice as a scripting langage for web applications : Perl, PHP, Ruby, Java, or other ? As I don't know any of them, I would like to start with a good choice.

I have several web sites to make : some blog (I may choose Drupal as CMS), e-commerce (I think of prestashop), and one with a lot of backend treatments where I will need a lot of glue logic.

Thanks to give your opinion and reasons.


Last edited by lalebarde on Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well - I would stay away from perl and php because they are ugly.

Java is a good choice, it has a wide range of frameworks and libs but it's not easy to find free webspace.
And you totally forgot python.
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your advice. Yes, I forgot Python. At first stage, I will setup my own server, so I can put anything I need. Later when I will have some income 8) , I will have them hosted and I hope I will be able to found a dedicated server where I will be able to clown my own. So there is no showstopper here for Java.

As far as I reviewed these langages (java, perl), java looks the faster, but Java for web is something different, isn't it ? It looks to me an heavy machine.
I read a tuto on Perl. The syntax is complex to master and code difficult to read. But anyway I will have to learn Perl for other purposes.

So between Python and Rubby ?

I found this comparision between java, ruby and php : http://www.cmswire.com/cms/industry-news/php-vs-java-vs-ruby-000887.php
and also this exhaustive? list : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks
This one Perl vs. Python vs. Ruby : http://mjtsai.com/blog/2002/11/25/perl_vs_python_vs_ruby/

Concerning performance, here is a comparison : http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/which-programming-languages-are-fastest.php?java=on&python=on&calc=chart
But I don't know the differences between the different Java - I assume Javascript is the one when dealing with code embedded in a page. Perl looks like the winner : Perl=26.28, PHP=30.21, CPython=34.20, Ruby=50.59, JavaScript=81.65. But on the server side, Java is the big winner with : Java 6 -server=1.32.

And a CMS list per language : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_content_management_systems
I tried in the past Joomla and Drupal, both PHP CMS. Probably I have to learn also PHP to be able to make my custom features ? Or may I mix for example Drupal with any langage, the main interface being the databases ?

I am a bit lost.


Last edited by lalebarde on Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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d2_racing
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, if you want something fast to develop , you should try Drupal, since it's a CMS that doesn't need code from your part.

I can build a website in 20 minutes with that kind of program.


Last edited by d2_racing on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks d2_racing. I think I will use Drupal for my "standard" websites, and it includes also an e-commerce module. However, I will have to make a web site with backend workstations with a lot of glue. This is mainly here I have to choose between Java, Perl and others.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For... my... less than 2 cts :

1/ If there is money involved around your services :
- Rule N°1 : Do *not* go with anything ready-made !
(Everybody knows the code... too easy to hack)
- Rule N°2 : (Personal one) : Do not go with Java.
Too much work to maintain and patch security holes that are found everyday. (To my own taste)

2/ You'll certainly need some database. Choose it first. Then select among the languages that interface nicely (according to your taste) with it.

3/ Do not be dogmatic ! Do not try to do everything in one unique language. For a dedicated task, things can be achieved with less work with one language than with another one.

4/ Do you already know well other programmation language ? (C, C++) ? => Chose a language which syntax is close to the one you know.

5/ Never forget PHP.
- Depending on the way your web services will be host, it might sometimes, for some purpose, be your only solution.
- You will find a huge community able to help you.

6/ Do not forget javascript. there are things that are better to be done on the client side.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And do not forget sh, there are so many possibilities in using the standard tools (cat, echo, etc) ,or writing some simple things yourself in C, and then glue it together with a nice, clean and simple sh-script.

I wrote an entire blog in 40 lines of sh script, and it has even regexp search feature (via grep :))
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks aCOSwt

aCOSwt wrote:
For... my... less than 2 cts :

1/ If there is money involved around your services :
- Rule N°1 : Do *not* go with anything ready-made !
(Everybody knows the code... too easy to hack)

I will respect that as if it was Confucius words. Money stuff will be on a separate server. Off-the-shelves things will be for forums, doc, etc.

aCOSwt wrote:
- Rule N°2 : (Personal one) : Do not go with Java.
Too much work to maintain and patch security holes that are found everyday. (To my own taste)
That makes it easy for me because I don't like Java.

aCOSwt wrote:
3/ Do not be dogmatic ! Do not try to do everything in one unique language. For a dedicated task, things can be achieved with less work with one language than with another one.
Do you have a two entry table for that ?

aCOSwt wrote:
4/ Do you already know well other programmation language ? (C, C++) ? => Chose a language which syntax is close to the one you know.
That makes sense. So what are the one close to C++ ?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lalebarde wrote:
Money stuff will be on a separate server. Off-the-shelves things will be for forums, doc, etc.

Just do... not take identical passwords for both... :wink: (I have seen this more than once... :roll: )
lalebarde wrote:
Do you have a two entry table for that ?

Well, not really because :
1/ What you find easier depends on your skills, your preferences and how you work.
Do you jump on your keyboard and "pisses la ligne" :wink: or do you drive a complete analysis first with data dictionnaries...
You will almost certainly code many lines in relationship with your database.
If this one is well designed, you will be able to achieve very complex processing in a single huge and clever SQL query.
But... up to you, you might find easier to split this query in many simple ones and process in between in PHP.
2/ It also depends on the load of your servers.
You easily understand that if your database server is more loaded than your PHP server, computing huge SQL queries might appear, on the other end... suboptimal !

Anyway, you see in this example that the language you choose might be only used in order to push SQL queries to a server, in which case... selecting the best one would simply be a matter of aesthetic ! And we can then go with Bill Cosby choosing sh.

lalebarde wrote:
So what are the one close to C++ ?

If you know C++ then 8) but I will not answer exactly this question.
If you know C++ then :
Jump to... javascript ! :twisted:

If someone wonders why I suggest first the learning of a client side language to somebody having asked for a sever-side language then...
I answer next time ! :twisted:
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much for your answers :D .

aCOSwt wrote:
Just do... not take identical passwords for both... :wink: (I have seen this more than once... :roll: )
I am paranoiac, so that should be ok.

aCOSwt wrote:
1/ What you find easier depends on your skills, your preferences and how you work.
I have some old and few experience with Assembler, C, C++, TCL, Matlab, Gambas (a basic), bash, awk. So it is like I start from scratch.

aCOSwt wrote:
Do you jump on your keyboard and "pisses la ligne" :wink: or do you drive a complete analysis first with data dictionnaries...
I am both top-down & bottom-up. "pisser du code" enables fast prototyping and keeps feet on the ground, while design enables a straight line to the result with less recoding.

aCOSwt wrote:
selecting the best one would simply be a matter of aesthetic ! And we can then go with Bill Cosby choosing sh.
So it doesn't matter.

aCOSwt wrote:
If you know C++ then :
Jump to... javascript ! :twisted:
I 'll have a look.

aCOSwt wrote:
If someone wonders why I suggest first the learning of a client side language to somebody having asked for a sever-side language then...
I answer next time ! :twisted:
I suppose the most you delegate to the client, the less you load your servers :wink: ?
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bill.
Bill Cosby wrote:
And do not forget sh, there are so many possibilities in using the standard tools (cat, echo, etc) ,or writing some simple things yourself in C, and then glue it together with a nice, clean and simple sh-script.
I did that once with Gambas + Bash + C++ for a Desktop application. I like this philosophy. I realize I can do it also on the server side of my web project.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And don't forget assembly language. There are even more possibilities as you have complete control over the code you run. And no complex, high-level abstractions to worry about.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
And don't forget assembly language.

Do not worry lalebarde ! John R. Graham is a "Real programmer" :wink:
Real programmers do not use Pascal. They use Fortran !
If it is not achieveable in Fortran, they do it in assembly language !
If it is not achieveable in assembly language then...

...It is not worth doing it ! :D
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's almost correct. If it's not achievable in assembly language, then I design custom hardware to do it. :P

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
John R. Graham wrote:
And don't forget assembly language.

Do not worry lalebarde ! John R. Graham is a "Real programmer" :wink:

BTW, because I love quoting myself, because it is definitely on topic and because I was personally a quiche-eater in these times...
For those newcomers who missed a big part of our history...
The original : http://www.ee.ryerson.ca/~elf/hack/realmen.html
John R. Graham wrote:
Well, that's almost correct. If it's not achievable in assembly language, then I design custom hardware to do it. :P

"As long as there are ill-defined goals, bizarre bugs, and unrealistic schedules, there will be Real Programmers willing to jump in and Solve The Problem, saving the documentation for later"
What did I tell you lalebarde...

Bak to your quest lalebarde, YES ! What you will do on the server-side is what you will not be capable of doing on the client side !
That is, for the greatest part, database queries, file management and http requests !
=> Learn well, in the following order : Javascript, SQL, PHP.
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
John R. Graham is a "Real programmer" :wink:
Real programmers do not use Pascal. They use Fortran !
If it is not achieveable in Fortran, they do it in assembly language !
If it is not achieveable in assembly language then...

...It is not worth doing it ! :D
My brother is like John. He won some international reversi championship in early 80's with an old Intel card with just a few digits diplay and an hexa keyboard (0-9a-f, enter, and a few more). He programmed directly in hexa as fast as you can type a message in this forum without needing debuging because his code was right the first shot !

aCOSwt wrote:
=> Learn well, in the following order : Javascript, SQL, PHP.

This is exacly the kind of advice I was seeking for :D :D .

Thank you very much all.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've been insulted. Why is there never a Moderator around when you need one?

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
And don't forget assembly language.

I am not sure if you want to imply that a shell script would be too low level, sarcasm doesn't transport well over the Internet.
In any case it certainly is much more high-level than pascal.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure. :) What I meant to imply was that, in my opinion, it's too low level for a beginner. (I also like to gently tweak aCOSwt.)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
...there will be Real Programmers willing to jump in and Solve The Problem, saving the documentation for later"

John R. Graham wrote:
I think I've been insulted.

Well... Only... Hmmm... nightmorph could read some insult there :wink:
John R. Graham wrote:
(I also like to gently tweak aCOSwt.)

You are welcome.
lalebarde wrote:
This is exacly the kind of advice I was seeking for

Right ! So... now... where can we see your index.php ? :twisted:
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lalebarde
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Right ! So... now... where can we see your index.php ? :twisted:
As soon as my brother will lend me is 16 keys 8 digits display 30 years old intel card :lol: .
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Jerry McBride
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lalebarde wrote:
I did that once with Gambas + Bash + C++ for a Desktop application. I like this philosophy. I realize I can do it also on the server side of my web project.


Yes, I see that this comment is almost 6 years old, but I could not resisit. Lalebarde mentioned Gambas. The recent versions of gambas allow you to write code that can be run as cgi under your favorite webserver and php. Although I have not written a complete website with Gambas, I ahve written a number of web apps for my company. It's awesome.

Jerry
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