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0joshuaolson1
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If some parts of the drive are faster to read/write than others

Is this not always true on a hard drive? And I assume ext4 is 'local' in the sense that partition placement affects physical placement.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't parted -a optimal help with that?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's alignment. The instructions specify a partition order, which is what I'm questioning. :) It's not as relevant if one doesn't add a swap partition.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D'oh, spaced on what the -a stands for.

Swap is no good for audio. I'm not sure it's needed at all, but I'm reluctant to recommend it be skipped altogether until I understand more about what possible problems that could introduce.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disabling my Dell boot recovery tool did nothing. No bootable devices found.

The instructions didn't install a legacy GRUB bootloader on my UEFI machine, did they?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's alignment. The instructions specify a partition order, which is what I'm questioning. :) It's not as relevant if one doesn't add a swap partition.
Yes, it does affect disk's performance. No, you're not gonna notice it.
In case of drives I own the beginning is roughly 10% faster than the end.
Everything actually used is being used from RAM though, so the performance penalty only kicks in when the data is read for the first time (including executables). This remains true until you start running out of memory.
If your system begins swapping out to disk, you most likely have serious problems and should either fix your software (remove memory leaks, apply simple optimizations), or get more RAM (if you really process THAT much data at once).

Since SSDs work in a totally different way, I wouldn't expect any differences based on location on disk as long as it is aligned with erase block.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the clear explanation.

Quote:
Everything actually used is being used from RAM though


I'm considering memory mapped preprocessed audio files for synth software I want to write. Is that bad?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
Disabling my Dell boot recovery tool did nothing. No bootable devices found.

The instructions didn't install a legacy GRUB bootloader on my UEFI machine, did they?


I don't think so. You have to do grub-install yourself, so until then, while grub is emerged on your system, it's not actually installed to the MBR.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Progress! Reply with quote

I managed to get partway through the boot process with Super Grub2 Disk, which listed the grub.cfg file as an option.

I saw
Code:
REAL_ROOT=/dev/sda4
, but it's not a real block device (/). I'm asked to specify it. I can 'ls' the filesystem though.

Last edited by 0joshuaolson1 on Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try the BIOS install instructions instead - Super Grub2 Disk complained when I tried some other offered boot options that it was in BIOS mode and couldn't do EFI stuff.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, the current instructions say to use 'eselect kernel set 1' for the Basic tarball too:
Code:
!!! Error: Target "1" doesn't appear to be valid!

Code:
# eselect kernel list
Available kernel symlink targets:
  (none found)
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0joshuaolson1
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to Minimal, the BIOS grub-install method complains:
Code:
grub-install /dev/sda
Installing for x86_64-efi platform.
grub-install: error: cannot find EFI directory.

Maybe I need to wipe my hard drive between every retry of the instructions.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
FYI, the current instructions say to use 'eselect kernel set 1' for the Basic tarball too:
Code:
!!! Error: Target "1" doesn't appear to be valid!

Code:
# eselect kernel list
Available kernel symlink targets:
  (none found)


That particular instruction will be removed, since rt-sources will be emerged-C before it's packed into the tarball. It just adds way too much to the tarball file size. Sorry about that - I'll go edit that post.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
Back to Minimal, the BIOS grub-install method complains:
Code:
grub-install /dev/sda
Installing for x86_64-efi platform.
grub-install: error: cannot find EFI directory.

Maybe I need to wipe my hard drive between every retry of the instructions.


I don't think you can install for BIOS if the machine is UEFI.

I'm going to investigate as to whether I can create my install-test virtual machines to emulate UEFI so I can test UEFI installs. I don't have any spare UEFI hardware machines to use.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for checking this out. I hope this is helpful.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're on UEFI, I highly recommend rEFInd. Tony0945 recommended it, so thanks :-)

Before you get to the bootloader, use gdisk (or cgdisk) for partitioning; it's available on sysrescue which I think has already been recommended for boot medium (I agree: sysresccd makes it a lot easier.)

gdisk will take care of the alignment for you, 2MB by default iirc, though you should read the docs (always!) if you're keeping existing partitions (upgrades, dual-booting.)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think you can install for BIOS if the machine is UEFI.


It may be helpful to add that my machine has a legacy boot mode.

Quote:
If you're on UEFI, I highly recommend rEFInd.


I know it's useful for dual-booting on a Mac.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
I know it's useful for dual-booting on a Mac.
That's one use-case, sure.
I find it to be a much better bootloader than grub2 (which I tried as well: it was all new to me, so why not explore?)

In fact it feels more like the old grub than grub2 does; but it's very smart about EFI (obviously.)

I like the ability to designate a directory per-distro and say "just boot the latest kernel", and the config makes sense (with none of this "recompilation" nonsense.)

Like I say, though, the basis for an easier EFI install is sysrescue with gdisk (gpt fdisk); the latter is also maintained by the rEFInd author.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:53 pm    Post subject: Funtoo bootloader recommendations Reply with quote

Funtoo has something to say about the BIOS/GPT/etc. craziness:

http://www.funtoo.org/Install

And likewise suggests gdisk for UEFI.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Funtoo bootloader recommendations Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
Funtoo has something to say about the BIOS/GPT/etc. craziness:

http://www.funtoo.org/Install

And likewise suggests gdisk for UEFI.
Hmm I don't agree with
Quote:
If you go with new-school GPT partitions and UEFI booting, your /boot partition will be a vfat filesystem, because this is what UEFI is able to read
While that is one way to do it, UEFI only needs an ESP (EFI System Partition) in vfat, and your /boot can be a "regular" ext2 or w/e. (I say "regular" in quotes, because it has its own specific mount options like noauto usually, and I always apply sync as well.)

It's quite cool having rEFInd on the ESP (required) and /boot separate (it can be a distro-specific /boot, or you can use subdirs, if you aren't doing a pure Gentoo install.)

I ended up putting the sysresccue files in the ESP too, as I'd forgotten to leave a 1GB partition for rescue. (At that point you can tweak how it's loaded, eg the keyboard setting, nomdadm, dostartx etc.) It caches the disk file in just 3 or 4 seconds, which rocks if you've been using it from cd, and keep having to reboot.
I had to, as it took a while to work out the whole EFI thing, mainly kernel settings and getting firmware loaded for ATi, then grub2, then realising I really preferred rEFInd, as it's much truer to "edit and forget".

Oh, and rEFInd is pretty good for dual-booting Winbloze, as well as Macs, if that's a use-case of interest.

About the only niggle I have with it, is that it doesn't have an "onlyvols" setting, so you have to tell it to ignore a load of partitions, if you want that.
That's a feature request, ofc, not a bug, that I have to file at some point.

gdisk is brilliant, as well, so I concur on that.

One thing to beware of, is that ext4 really needs the "nodelalloc" mount option, if you want journal consistency on a level with ext3 (data=ordered.)
cf: man mount -- the "FILESYSTEM-SPECIFIC MOUNT OPTIONS" section.

Anyway, good luck :-)
When you run into specific problems, just open a new thread in "installing" or "kernel and hardware"; if you prefer "live support", ask in #gentoo on IRC: chat.freenode.net or .org
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be clear, I don't have the experience or patience to figure out the bootloader myself right now. I'm hoping someone else can figure out how to fix the install instructions.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
To be clear, I don't have the experience or patience to figure out the bootloader myself right now.
Hmm, trouble with that is, that a Gentoo install is all about figuring out stuff you never knew before.

If you've never done one, then you should do a minimal install, following the handbook; just enough to get a terminal running.

Getting there is the hard part, ime; it means you've got a kernel built and accessing your partitions, and booting cleanly (nowadays, that you've figured out UEFI, including kernel parms, enough to make it boot.)
In my case, I had to get the radeon module loading at boot (as I did not want all the firmware built-in); however you do that, you need the linux-firmware package (so again, I explored, as you can configure precisely which firmware lands on your system.)
Thereafter it's a matter of wrangling with emerge, but you always have a machine to work on.

My feeling is that GentooStudio is aimed at people who've already done a Gentoo install. The instructions are minimal compared to the handbook, which is where everyone starts (or they give up on Gentoo.)

"Follow the handbook" is a mantra you will hear again; for good reason.

If the thought of doing a manual install is too much, then Gentoo is not for you; ongoing maintenance requires a self-motivated user who is happy to play sysadmin, ie search out and explore documentation, and consider the options before asking for help or proceeding.
At all times, it's on you: it's your machine, you make the decisions, and you get to keep the pieces.

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear; best to be upfront and save everyone time, ime.

(I was going to add "or if you're a returning user who's heard it all before," but that seems unlikely.)

My advice is "give it a shot", as you're clearly interested.
Just allow for it to take a week or two, if you've never done it before; maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, but you won't be disappointed.
You will definitely learn a load about Linux and software that you never knew before, so it will not be a waste of time, whatever the outcome.

If learning doesn't appeal, then again, Gentoo is not for you (though it might be for your geeky sibling or friend.)
I'd take a look at dyne:bolic if they're still around. (excellent distro for audio, or was 7 or 8 years ago, before all the systemdbust fiasco.)
Here you go (last web-search I'll do for you ;)

Oh, if you do go ahead with Gentoo, do it on a real machine, not a virtual one, or you won't really learn, imo, and it won't be much cop for proper audio either.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your honesty is appreciated. Your concept, however, of the point of Gentoo Studio is more pessimistic than I expected. Since when is it the intermediate non-Gentoo Linux user/beta tester's fault when the Gentoo Studio 'handbook' is wrong?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I was sick for a while, better now, plus have to catch up on homesteading stuff.

steveL, thanks for the boot info. I will look into it as possible ideas for GS.

GS was originally designed for people who wanted to use a source-based system and didn't mind getting their bits and bytes dirty, but now it's heading toward a wider audience. I hope it'll eventually be useful for musicians/recording engineers who want to get right to work AND be suitable for system tinkerers.

The install steps posted earlier ARE the handbook, pared down to do-this-do-this-and-do-that. These instructions are intended to eventually become an install script that the user downloads onto a system booted with SystemRescueCD.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

0joshuaolson1 wrote:
Your honesty is appreciated. Your concept, however, of the point of Gentoo Studio is more pessimistic than I expected. Since when is it the intermediate non-Gentoo Linux user/beta tester's fault when the Gentoo Studio 'handbook' is wrong?
No one attributed blame anywhere. It's not about "fault" iow, but about what is suitable for the user.

As for "non-gentoo user" that's kinda the point; first learn Gentoo, then learn GentooStudio, imo, as you won't be able to maintain it otherwise. (Or it's not Gentoo: it's a downstream bindist, with its own forums and IRC channels.)

By all means, learn Gentoo while doing a GentooStudio install; but in that case (if you are learning Gentoo for the first time) the detailed handbook is what you need to follow (and you will learn much doing so.)

If you just try and do it from a terse summary, that'd be like trying to follow Griz's dingi "script" (it's a text file, well-known to some of us) without ever having done a Gentoo install. Trust me, it won't go well.

Griz could do an install in half an hour, over the wire. In over a decade, I've never done one in less than 3 days (and I had to redo that.)
Coming back to do a UEFI install after a year out, it took a fortnight (but then, I'm very fussy about data, and always end up having to patch openrc.)
The thing is, you don't tend to reinstall Gentoo for the lifetime of the machine.
(By marked contrast to all the bindists I've ever used, where the standard advice was to reinstall every 6 months, or major release at most.)

Hopefully that gives you an indication, and hasn't put you off; if it has, that's cool too: we're not all geeks, TF. Nor is there any judgement attached: it just means you'd be better off with something else, or with someone else doing the sysadmin work. *shrug*

--
Note: I am not trying to say that GentooStudio will never be in a state where you can "just install" it. My point is that, even when it is, if it's still a true Gentoo installation, then it will still need a fairly knowledgeable person to administer it, who actually enjoys that sort of thing.

Time and again, we've had various "easy" installers (I've written one too; it's not hard), that result in users who don't know the basics, and don't know their machines; as they would if they'd done a manual install. They only end up angry with Gentoo when they cannot maintain it, and leave in bad feeling, mouthing off about a Gentoo they never even knew, leading to bad word-of-mouth outside Gentoo (which obviously we're in no position to counter, even if we had the will to live left.)

That's all I'm trying to avoid here; perhaps at too much length, so I'll stfu now. :-)
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