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Marines are Cannon Fodder
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Boris27
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
No really, do I come off as a dick about being veteran?


Depends. Did you actually fight in a war?
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wildhorse
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe marines became cannon fodder when mediaeval missionaries pushed them into the front-line.
Or when some assholes decided that invading countries and slaughtering innocent people for oil is a good thing. Ask your Führer in Washington about that.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Marines aren't cannon fodder; they are amphibious shock troops:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops

The nature of the mission of shock troops requires that be willing and able to assault prepared defenses. That means charging into enemy fire. When you do that, some people are going to die. A well-trained, well-led unit of sufficient size will do it right and overwhelm the defenders without losing an inordinate percentage of the force.

No leader with an alternative sends his men to assault a prepared defense, but sometimes it's necessary. Where it's necessary, it's best to use all the fires you can get (e.g. preparatory airstrikes and artillery, close air support, attack helicopters, electronic warfare, etc.), and carefully selected, specially trained units who can pull it off with as few losses as possible.

In such a situation, average soldiers will end up attacking piecemeal, as many of them wait for the other guy to go first, lose their ability to function, fire blindly, and just become targets running to keep up with their buddies as best they can. Such a unit will fail to achieve overwhelming mass and concentration of combat power, and they'll get shredded.

What's required is that every man have the strength of character, the realistic training or combat experience, and the necessary confidence in the other members of their unit, that they will indeed all attack without hesitation, in a closely-coordinated fashion, achieving the necessary maneuver and concentrations of combined arms combat power to overwhelm the defender. This isn't like defending some hilltop; it takes a great deal of expertise, and it takes a lot of very brave men.

That doesn't make them "cannon fodder" more than any other warrior who is a target. It just makes them a special kind of warrior who is more likely to keep his shit together under extreme duress, work as a team through chaos and confusion, and come out on top in a heavy fight. Also, the only officers who can successfully lead such men do so by sharing every hardship and leading by example and from the front. That's why the motto of the U.S. Infantry is "Follow Me". I'm sure the Marines have a similar philosophy.


Sturmtruppen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper

this is how you take out a stronghold.

What you are discribing is indeed cannon fodder - send in enough forces until the enemy runs out of ammunition or can't shoot at you anymore because of the piles of dead meat in front of him.

That's not what I described.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Suddenly, not all minions of the state are bad (as he has consistently said), and when you think about it, being a net tax recipient is a means to combat the injustice of tax theft. Hey, at least he's not a baby killer or baton-wielding, jack-booted thug. :roll:
++

That's what it sounds like.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wildhorse wrote:
Maybe marines became cannon fodder when mediaeval missionaries pushed them into the front-line.

What the... Oh my, uh... 8O

THAT'S FUCKING HILAROUS!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
wildhorse wrote:
Maybe marines became cannon fodder when mediaeval missionaries pushed them into the front-line.

What the... Oh my, uh... 8O

THAT'S FUCKING HILAROUS!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hilarious from our perspective -- not from that of a Spaniard. Their Infantería de Armada dates back to the sixteenth century and Felipe el Prudente (one generation removed from the days of Columbus). They were indeed sending amphibious assault forces for Jesus. :lol:
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dmitchell
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
The Evolution of dmichell, Chapter III: dmitchell the absolute anarchist becomes a bureaucratic stooge of the state. Suddenly, not all minions of the state are bad (as he has consistently said), and when you think about it, being a net tax recipient is a means to combat the injustice of tax theft. Hey, at least he's not a baby killer or baton-wielding, jack-booted thug. :roll:

I'm not going to put up much of a fight here because even I find a little humor in the situation, but I will make a couple of points. And of course I'm just speaking for myself here, expressing my own opinions.

Quote:
Suddenly, not all minions of the state are bad (as he has consistently said)...

While I do object to government and therefore to all government employment, on more than one occasion I've explained that my beef lies primarily with the enforcers, the hired killers, and the busy bodies. In other words with anyone directly involved in deploying the coercive power of the state. You can't find many instances of me trash talking e.g. the faculty and staff at public universities. Those people just aren't my targets. I do object to public funding of science, and if anyone had asked me, I would not have endorsed it.

Quote:
...and when you think about it, being a net tax recipient is a means to combat the injustice of tax theft.

I made that argument more than a year ago. Meaning that it may be wrong, but it is not a rationalization I made up just now. It isn't "Suddenly," as you put it.

Quote:
Hey, at least he's not a baby killer or baton-wielding, jack-booted thug.

Yes, actually. I'm not. Anyway, go ahead and point and laugh. I deserve it. :lol:
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to push it, because I imagine the cognitive dissonance you are going through already is agonizing enough. :P
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ratmonkey
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
No really, do I come off as a dick about being veteran?


No. You do not come off as a dick about being a veteran. You just come off as being sensitive to the matter.
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