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Which should be the default in Gentoo, ffmpeg or libav?
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default.
62%
 62%  [ 186 ]
I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default.
4%
 4%  [ 13 ]
I prefer libav, and it should be the default.
5%
 5%  [ 15 ]
I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default.
2%
 2%  [ 6 ]
I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently.
7%
 7%  [ 23 ]
I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default.
12%
 12%  [ 37 ]
I don't care either way.
4%
 4%  [ 12 ]
None of the above/Other (please comment)
2%
 2%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 298

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chithanh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: ffmpeg/libav default in Gentoo Reply with quote

There has recently been a discussion among developers about the default choice of ffmpeg/libav in Gentoo. Until recently, libav was the default implicitly by being the first dependency of virtual/ffmpeg. Now the choice has been made explicit to libav in the portage profiles.

Background behind this problem is that ffmpeg and libav cannot be installed simultaneously, and several packages work properly only with the one or with the other.

In order to get a data point which might be useful for the discussion, which if any do you prefer being the default in Gentoo?
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tw04l124
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default.

I removed libav useflag today. Funny it was set all the time and no libav in system ...

ffmpeg worked so far so I keep it ...
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rich0
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This nuance wasn't really in the options, but in general I'm fine with one being better supported than the other, but not at the cost of just excluding packages that don't work with it.

So, if fooplayer is non-default-only my definition of "a smooth user experience" does not include just banning fooplayer from the tree, or requiring fooplayer users to break half their system to get that one player to work.

That said, it is also a bit like saying "gnome should work without systemd" (just an example, please don't re-open that debate) and as much as we might want to have more options there is sometimes only so much a distro can do.
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zx2c4
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For more information:
https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say that normally I could care less which one is default, as long as the other is still support in some fashion. However, with how the current ffmpeg and libav is working, it's looking like the 2 is stopping to be binary compatible to each other. If this continues where ffmpeg and libav diverges more to break even more software, than yes I'd agree it's time we prefer one of them over the other, in the end it doesn't matter which to me. The one thing I still feel significant, is that even though we prefer one, we should at least support the other in some fashion (if 80% of software doesn't work, so be it, at least they still have the choice).
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Anon-E-moose
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using ffmpeg for a long time without any problems (granted I don't use a huge variety of software needing it)
so I voted "I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default"

The last I looked at libav was several years back and it didn't work well with some things at that time, which is why I stuck with ffmpeg.
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhh, I don't think Option 1-4 belong in the same poll as Option 5-7 :P
Currently I use ffmpeg partially due to mpv.
I thought about this but I'm really not involved enough to make any meaningful decision. I just use the thing and am happy when the thing does it's thing.
I guess I'd vote in favor of providing choice over convenience because Gentoo.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ffmpeg as default: libav hostility will get it nowhere.
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chithanh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
Uhh, I don't think Option 1-4 belong in the same poll as Option 5-7 :P
I briefly considered that, but I decided not to make two polls. After all, if you prefer libav and it is the default, you would welcome a smooth experience with it. And if you prefer ffmpeg although libav is the default, you obviously don't want to suffer too much from that decision.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it funny (and predictable) that the only option with 0 votes right now is for the libav camp agreeing to co-operate with the community.

Totally agree with krinn.
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gotyaoi
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went with none of the above. Basically, my position was "I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default." However, I worry about how these projects are *mostly* interchangeable, but not completely. If some package can build against one, but not the other, you run into a situation where you'll need to rebuild a bunch of packages just to install the incompatible one. It just... default doesn't really sound to me like the right thing to talk about when the packages don't really make an interchangeable set to choose from.
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davidm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I chose:

"I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default."

But that is mainly because the virtual package is named ffmpeg and absent any serious reason (such as no more upstream or license change) ffmpeg should then stay the default. But if you were to rename it and make libav the default I really don't care as long as there is a reasonable way to switch.

I did not like how the virtual/ffmpeg package defaulted to libav upon my initial install last December. I felt it was unintuitive and sort of forced upon me. I did not recall the handbook mentioning it either. It was a minor annoyance to spend ~20 minutes recompiling the relevant packages but had I been on older hardware where it took hours it would be a very bad impression of Gentoo.

I intend no disrespect to libav developers though. I appreciate the choice and maybe one day I will switch to libav of my own free will.

edit: fixed nasty error - ffmpeg -> libav


Last edited by davidm on Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zx2c4 wrote:
For more information:
https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav

That link showing:
Libav is the stable tree, while Ffmpeg is the progressing one.

Thus such guys as us hobbyistas prefer ffmpeg. Higher level frameworks (like gstreamer) most likely prefer the more stable Libav. As far as we might want to use such higher level frameworks we may want to be able to also use Libav.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
zx2c4 wrote:
For more information:
https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav

That link showing:
Libav is the stable tree, while Ffmpeg is the progressing one.

Which is of course complete BS.

Quote:
Thus such guys as us hobbyistas prefer ffmpeg. Higher level frameworks (like gstreamer) most likely prefer the more stable Libav.

I know you're a vocal supporter of systemd's and libav's cronyism but step back and open your eyes for a second.

Google sure seems to think ffmpeg is the stable version; they bundle it with their browser and both their OSes. They run youtube.com on it. Where's libav's success stories, the ones the didn't involve under-the-table dealing to muscle it into distros?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default" ... I might have been inclined to vote "I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default" but I really don't think the fork has been of much benefit for end users (though it could be argued that its spurred ffmpeg development ... so that may be a plus). With that in mind, and the fact that we are having subsequent issues (namely, the 'ffmpeg' namespace, useflag denotation, support by dependent packages, etc), I'm more inclined to see libav as a hindrance and/or problem.

best ... khay
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
I know you're a vocal supporter of systemd's and libav's cronyism but step back and open your eyes for a second.

Half a year before the Debian switch I predicted systemd would win. I argued against some dumb statements. But my understatement lets me think much too much honor to be called a supporter of systemd.
As a hobbyista promoter of the Gentoo~testing release I am also promoting the masked version of ffmpeg since long. I am from a time progressive against conservative was the way to go instead of just "positive thinking", which was seen dope for the masses. I never expected to see such a white white racist sentiment in an open source forum:
grot wrote:
I don't like Poettering for being anti-white, anti-western, and targeting conservatives (I consider myself a moderate, but come on - that kind of dialogue really has nothing to do with computers).

@Ant P., as an elderly I am loosing the sharpeness of my eyes: What I am supposed to see if I "open my eyes for a second" ?
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tclover
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Ant P. wrote:
I know you're a vocal supporter of systemd's and libav's cronyism but step back and open your eyes for a second.

Half a year before the Debian switch I predicted systemd would win. I argued against some dumb statements. But my understatement lets me think much too much honor to be called a supporter of systemd.
As a hobbyista promoter of the Gentoo~testing release I am also promoting the masked version of ffmpeg since long. I am from a time progressive against conservative was the way to go instead of just "positive thinking", which was seen dope for the masses. I never expected to see such a white white racist sentiment in an open source forum:
grot wrote:
I don't like Poettering for being anti-white, anti-western, and targeting conservatives (I consider myself a moderate, but come on - that kind of dialogue really has nothing to do with computers).


Where those _false_ positive (white) racists ultra sensitive guys are coming from? Even an _outlined_ support for... some projects using... some dubious methods to... Trigger white racist flags?!
Well, of course, you can _keep_ your dear WHITE SUPREMACIST POSITION even if there's no such attack against it. But please, spare us that BS.


ulenrich wrote:
@Ant P., as an elderly I am loosing the sharpeness of my eyes: What I am supposed to see if I "open my eyes for a second" ?


Obviously some light. Well, it might be a naked (_meaning_ Luminous) Lord Jesus for you.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The split was politically motivated, the choice is equally politically motivated. I honestly do not care as long as it works so my vote would be default easy (ffmpeg or libav) and those that choose differently do the work
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chithanh
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is fine if you state your reasons why you choose one option, but please do not engage in bickering about the ffmpeg/libav split here. And also not about unrelated packages.
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kepstin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer ffmpeg because as a software developer who writes media software using the library and command line tool, I've run in to strange bugs and crashes that magically went away when I switched from libav to ffmpeg. And once I had ffmpeg available, my job was easier because of the additional features and filters it has.

I also found it easier to get involved with the development community of ffmpeg, and I actually have a patch in now.
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RayDude
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole subject really pisses me off.

What ever happened to cooperation?

Why do the developers of libav and ffmpeg get to create havoc for every linux user ever?

If they could simply learn to get along, then we wouldn't even have to contemplate this crap.

And then, for developers to choose camps and prevent me from installing two different pieces of software that I like at the same time because one exclusively uses libav and the other ffmpeg is beyond belief.

The real solution is to figure out a way to have both installed at the same time, force libav to use different library names so they they can be on the system at the same time. Since libav came second, ffmpeg should have dibs on the library names.

I suppose that's impossible, but that would take the politics out of my effing operating system of choice and that's the way it should be.

I have ffmpeg installed, but I want to be able to run apps that have limited themselves to libav.

Damnit, can't we all just get along?
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rich0
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RayDude wrote:
I suppose that's impossible...


It is code, not magic. Nothing is impossible. Granted, some things might involve a lot of work. In this case the work falls mostly on all the packages consuming the libraries to account for the non-standard behavior. That is, unless most other distros do the same thing and upstream (for the reverse dependencies) starts expecting it.
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Kobboi
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, so *that*'s why my system is now bitching about blockers since yesterday. Thanks guys!
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ayay4
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpv developer's comparison sums up most of my thoughts nicely.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RayDude wrote:
Why do the developers of libav and ffmpeg get to create havoc for every linux user ever?

RayDude ... I can't really see what ffmpeg developers could do ITR subsequent to the fork, except perhaps stop developing ffmpeg.

RayDude wrote:
I have ffmpeg installed, but I want to be able to run apps that have limited themselves to libav.

Yes, in all a terrible situation for users, but perhaps this should be reflected in the reasoning given for how we came to this impasse ... "choice ... not necessarily good for users".

Otherwise +1 for voicing that ... though I/we might be getting too close to "bickering about the ffmpeg/libav split" so ...

best ... khay
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