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josephg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: noob coming over Reply with quote

hello all :) i've just landed here, trying to escape from the dependency hell (sorry for the strong language, but i'm told this is a standard phrase) in debian. i've been a long time debian user, since it's potato days. all i see now is layers & layers of obscurity building in. and i'm too much into leaner cleaner systems. my journey has spanned arch, alpine, void, etc. along with a few others.
i'll probably bombard you with stupid questions, while trying to prune everything down.. just to warn you all. thanks in advance!


Last edited by josephg on Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome … in advance :P
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josephg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks dr. :)
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg,

Welcome to Gentoo.

There are no stupid questions - except the one you never ask.
Be on your guard for stupid answers though. There aren't many here and posters usually get called for it.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
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josephg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
josephg,

Welcome to Gentoo.

There are no stupid questions - except the one you never ask.
Be on your guard for stupid answers though. There aren't many here and posters usually get called for it.


thanks NeddySeagoon :) i've already started.. hopefully nobody will ask me to do something stupid enough to trash my gentoo install
i see most people who bother to respond as helpful
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg,

Only once. That's a ban and throw away the key offence.
I've not seen it here but it comes up in #gentoo once in a while.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg ... welcome ...

NeddySeagoon will now sing for you the first 3,000 verses of ying tong yiddle I po ;)

best ... khay
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josephg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, then it's good that we have some people looking out for us :D
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vilehost
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey bud, not sure what type of rig your running on, but if you ever have a question and dont get a quick response feel free to message me, i'll help with what i can
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josephg
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you vilehost :) appreciate it
my rig is a simple laptop. and i'm really keen on getting a stable minimal gentoo x86 32bit on btrfs, with wpa_supplicant & jwm. i'm still trying to finish the gentoo install and get my head around emerge.
i have no need for fancy de/wm, nor for bleeding edge.
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vilehost
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, as far as btrfs goes i wont be of much help other to remind you to make sure to add support for it in your kernel.. i assume your building your own if not make sure to use the --menuconfig option with genkernel and also to point you twords https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Btrfs.. i've also never used jwm but i dont see the installation and starting of any different than running it on arch --which i also assume you've done before.

wpa_supplicant is pretty straightforward as long as your card is detected and operational and if you've made a wpa_supplicant.conf before.. if not you can search for some examples such as this one for a wpa2 and wep network

Code:

network={
               ssid="home"
               scan_ssid=1
               key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
               psk="<my pw>"
}

network={
                ssid="sisters"
                key_mgmt=NONE
                wep_key0=1533437341
                wep_tx_keyidx=0
                priority=5
                #auth_alg=SHARED
}




check with iwconfig to see what your wifi will be labled as--by default it'll be detected if your installing from the gentoo minimal iso, if your network uses dhcp you might have to pass it a command like dhcpcd eth0.. or in my case for wifi dhcpcd wlp3s0 or enp5s0 for ethernet.

alot of people have problems with their network specifically their wifi after installation and the first boot they'll be confused why it worked in the chrooted environment during the install, their card wont show up with iwconfig.. sometimes its a module and something like modprobe iwlwifi will fix it.. also iwconfig can turn/on shut off cards, for instance if i wanted to turn my wifi on/off-- iwconfig wlp3s0 down/up.. which you may need to do at somepoint if the correct module is loaded, but i wont confuse you more with wireless problems untill-and if you experience them yourself because there are a few more 'fixes' that i cant recall atm.

as for wanting a minimal installation that's what your going to have regardless unless you yourself install things to it.

during install you'll get to a point where the handbook will tell you to pick a profile by using
Code:
 eselect profile list
[1]   default/linux/amd64/13.0
  [2]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/selinux
  [3]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
  [4]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome
  [5]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/systemd
  [6]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde *
  [7]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/kde/systemd
  [8]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma
  [9]   default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/plasma/systemd
  [10]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/developer
  [11]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/no-multilib
  [12]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/systemd
  [13]  default/linux/amd64/13.0/x32
  [14]  hardened/linux/amd64
  [15]  hardened/linux/amd64/selinux
  [16]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
  [17]  hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib/selinux
  [18]  hardened/linux/amd64/x32
  [19]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64
  [20]  hardened/linux/musl/amd64/x32
  [21]  default/linux/uclibc/amd64
  [22]  hardened/linux/uclibc/amd64


basically picking one will set the global USE flags you'll build your programs with(https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Profile_(Portage) for a more indepth explanation)so if you pick default desktop you'll just have to add your own flags manually(i believe)

portage is probably the best package manager i've used(and i love pacman/ABS) i'd defenitly recommend you install gentoolkit https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoolkit

sometimes when you go to emerge a program it'll tell you changes to use flags need to be made, theres 2 ways of doing so either with the --autounmask-write(and then etc-update after) or by doing it manually.. if you choose the auto option be careful because sometimes it'll make changes that might not be so good
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Accepting_a_keyword_for_a_single_package

some people never emerge -uavDN world, some people do weekly, some once a month.. frankly it's up to you but from my experience it's way safer to just upgrade the packages you want individually, because things do often break when an emerge world is issued.. sometimes it's simple like you forgot to point grub to your new kernel etc.. or for instance sometimes a form of dependency hell will develop if it pulls a new version of say GCC, installs it and then wont run because something else that it needs hasnt been updated.. and then oops..
http://www.calculate-linux.org/boards/15/topics/20296
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Cheat_Sheet
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=1060314

as for wanting it to be a stable enviroment.. gentoo's rock solid(unless you break it with an emerge world ;p)

there's also a different part of the world called overlays, which you can view all of them with layman -L once you've installed it with emerge layman, but i wouldnt get into this for a while unless your just curious(be cautious because some overlays will have different modified versions of things you already have installed and emerge might see it as an update and if your not carefull it'll install and break things because its configured to be part of and run with a specific set of packages) as you will probably have no need for it, but it's pretty cool especially when you find something you were looking for that isnt in the primary overlay https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Layman

ok that's it for now i hope i help'd more than caused damage xD

--oh if you want somthing other than wpa_supplicant i highly suggest networkmanager and nm-applet
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josephg
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you vilehost, for your patience in giving me this very detailed and helpful post.

btrfs is not much of a problem for me. i have two btrfs partitions, with two subvolumes each, i'm allocating for gentoo.. one partition is dedicated, and the other is shared. i'll be using subvolumes for my irregular backups.

wpa_supplicant is also not a problem. i'll skip networkmanager, as it is usually on my blacklist, unless i have a very specific need for it.

my issue is all gentoo specific atmo.. to finish this install, so i can reboot and login to a pristine system. i've been compiling the whole world, each time i've changed my profile or use flags, which has happened quite a few times now, as i try to find my way.

somehow i ended up playing ping-pong with profiles. i was following the handbook, and set it to desktop. somewhere down the line i messed up use flags and added selinux without really understanding. and my profile became selinux without me knowing. everytime i wanted to install something, emerge would pull in quite an alarming number of dependencies. each time i was spending half a day twiddling my thumbs looking at the matrix flowing through my screen. and then i'd remove another use flag and compile the whole world to normalise my system.

vilehost wrote:
sometimes when you go to emerge a program it'll tell you changes to use flags need to be made, theres 2 ways of doing so either with the --autounmask-write(and then etc-update after) or by doing it manually.. if you choose the auto option be careful because sometimes it'll make changes that might not be so good
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Knowledge_Base:Accepting_a_keyword_for_a_single_package

some people never emerge -uavDN world, some people do weekly, some once a month.. frankly it's up to you but from my experience it's way safer to just upgrade the packages you want individually, because things do often break when an emerge world is issued.. sometimes it's simple like you forgot to point grub to your new kernel etc.. or for instance sometimes a form of dependency hell will develop if it pulls a new version of say GCC, installs it and then wont run because something else that it needs hasnt been updated.. and then oops..

yes oops, i think that is where i might be getting lost.. good thing to know, and timely too!

package management and use flags are where i'm stuck. it has been an endless cycle of change something & compile the world, and then again.. and your above tip is very useful.
i don't know how to list all the installed packages, or to identify orphan packages/files. i won't feel happy, until i've purged every package/file from my system, that i don't specifically have a need for. probably too ocd, and probably why i'm here.. :)

vilehost wrote:
portage is probably the best package manager i've used

hopefully i'll grow to love it too. i've been through quite a few distros and various package managers. this is my first attempt at gentoo.. and i want to stay.

once i finish this round of compiling (i don't want to interrupt) the world, i'll reboot into a hopefully working system, and start reading your links.
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vilehost
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no problem bro. first make sure you've emerged gentoolkit before doing what i'm now going to list.

after you change your make.conf use flags and eselect profile to what you want, to rebuild the system to reflect the changes, the command your looking for is

Code:
emerge --update --deep --newuse @world


then, to see the leftovers from the old world without removing them

Code:
emerge -p --depclean

the -p is for pretend so you can see what will be removed without removing them, if your satisfied and fairly confident it wont break, just remove the -p and run the command again

after that, run
Code:
revdep-rebuild
(revdep-rebuild is part of gentoolkit hence why you need it first) which will rebuild the programs that are dynamically linked against shared objects provided by possibly removed packages, otherwise stuff might remain broken from the depclean. after all that the system will be built to your new settings

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Working/USE first paragraph really will help explain.

the first time i did a gentoo installation was in 2007 i think, and i made many problems for myself by adding a load of global useflags in /etc/portage/make.conf
--flags in that make.conf there are used system wide in addition to what is selected by the eselect profile being used for building

Code:
CFLAGS="-march=corei7-avx -mtune=corei7-avx -O2 -pipe"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
CHOST="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
INPUT_DEVICES="evdev synaptics"
VIDEO_CARDS="nvidia intel"
USE="bindist mmx sse sse2"
PORTDIR="/usr/portage"
DISTDIR="${PORTDIR}/distfiles"
PKGDIR="${PORTDIR}/packages"
source /var/lib/layman/make.conf


years later i'm a little more relaxed..as you can see, i haven't added a single USE flag to this make.conf aside from these default ones. now these in the make.conf, and the ones from the selected profile are considered global USE flags

now on to local use flags(per package), when you go to emerge something it'll show you the USE flags that specific program needs, it will build that specific program with those, + the global ones in your make.conf + the ones from your profile

Code:
emerge -p codeblocks

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    ~] dev-util/codeblocks-13.12-r1  USE="-contrib -debug -pch -static-libs"



now if your absolutly sure of the global use flags you want, add them to your make.conf.. but if you are unsure there is no reason you cant leave them as stock like i personally left this laptop, the system will run and the programs you install will tell you if a flag needs to be added locally for that package

good luck!
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg,

You don't have very much in world yet and you have only been compiling changed things so far.

Your world file only contains thing you have explicitly emerged. Its empty in the stage3 tarball.
Do
Code:
emerge -epv

The dark green packages are installed as dependancies.
The bright green packages are named in your world file.

To read your world file directly,
Code:
less /var/lib/portage/world
works.
Its a verybadthing to edit your world file directly.
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Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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josephg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vilehost wrote:
no problem bro. first make sure you've emerged gentoolkit before doing what i'm now going to list.

i think i'm now ready to digest your very helpful post and links. sorry for the delay.. i've emerged gentoolkit.

vilehost wrote:
after you change your make.conf use flags and eselect profile to what you want, to rebuild the system to reflect the changes, the command your looking for is

Code:
emerge --update --deep --newuse @world


then, to see the leftovers from the old world without removing them

Code:
emerge -p --depclean

the -p is for pretend so you can see what will be removed without removing them, if your satisfied and fairly confident it wont break, just remove the -p and run the command again

after that, run
Code:
revdep-rebuild
(revdep-rebuild is part of gentoolkit hence why you need it first) which will rebuild the programs that are dynamically linked against shared objects provided by possibly removed packages, otherwise stuff might remain broken from the depclean. after all that the system will be built to your new settings


this bit was most helpful. i cleared out quite a lot of garbage. and i feel a bit more comfortable with this system.

at one point i almost gave up and trashed this install, wanting to start a clean one from scratch. NeddySeagoon encouraged me to keep going, and i have now salvaged this install. i've almost got the whole base running as i pretty much want.. i think.

few more niggling bits to clean up before i feel i have a stable base. i've been running amok on this forum of yours creating various threads, and folks have been pretty helpful.

vilehost wrote:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Working/USE first paragraph really will help explain.

the first time i did a gentoo installation was in 2007 i think, and i made many problems for myself by adding a load of global useflags in /etc/portage/make.conf
--flags in that make.conf there are used system wide in addition to what is selected by the eselect profile being used for building

Code:
CFLAGS="-march=corei7-avx -mtune=corei7-avx -O2 -pipe"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}"
CHOST="x86_64-pc-linux-gnu"
INPUT_DEVICES="evdev synaptics"
VIDEO_CARDS="nvidia intel"
USE="bindist mmx sse sse2"
PORTDIR="/usr/portage"
DISTDIR="${PORTDIR}/distfiles"
PKGDIR="${PORTDIR}/packages"
source /var/lib/layman/make.conf


years later i'm a little more relaxed..as you can see, i haven't added a single USE flag to this make.conf aside from these default ones. now these in the make.conf, and the ones from the selected profile are considered global USE flags


this was the bit where i got really lost, and just about trashed my system. yes i used flags without understanding, adding some (which changed my system setup itself). i think some of my posts show the road i travelled :)

thanks for telling me about your experience and setup. i need to keep reminding myself to keep things clean. i usually go overboard in customising my systems.

may i ask if you keep everything as the default, why stick with gentoo.. and not use another simpler distro? you said that you use arch too. i agree that is far more quicker and easier to setup.
but gentoo offers customisation (and flexible options and amazing documentation) the likes of which i haven't seen yet.

vilehost wrote:
now on to local use flags(per package), when you go to emerge something it'll show you the USE flags that specific program needs, it will build that specific program with those, + the global ones in your make.conf + the ones from your profile

Code:
emerge -p codeblocks

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    ~] dev-util/codeblocks-13.12-r1  USE="-contrib -debug -pch -static-libs"



now if your absolutly sure of the global use flags you want, add them to your make.conf.. but if you are unsure there is no reason you cant leave them as stock like i personally left this laptop, the system will run and the programs you install will tell you if a flag needs to be added locally for that package


this is where i am right now. just about feeling like i'm starting to understand use flags.

i created the file /etc/portage/package.use. i think one file listing packages per line is more cleaner, than a directory full of files with one line each. it would also be handy listing out often used flags.

there was a directory by that same name /etc/portage/package.use, which i deleted (moved elsewhere).
that directory had two files, none of which i had created. one was intel with a single line. another was called iputils with 43 lines.

i hope i haven't trashed my system. but nothing gives me more pleasure than to uninstall packages, delete lots of directories/files, and rip out code. i keep testing the boundaries of minimalism.
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josephg
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Code:
# emerge -epv
emerge: command-line interface to the Portage system
Usage:
   emerge [ options ] [ action ] [ ebuild | tbz2 | file | @set | atom ] [ ... ]
   emerge [ options ] [ action ] < @system | @world >
   emerge < --sync | --metadata | --info >
   emerge --resume [ --pretend | --ask | --skipfirst ]
   emerge --help
Options: -[abBcCdDefgGhjkKlnNoOpPqrsStuvVw]
          [ --color < y | n >            ] [ --columns    ]
          [ --complete-graph             ] [ --deep       ]
          [ --jobs JOBS ] [ --keep-going ] [ --load-average LOAD            ]
          [ --newrepo   ] [ --newuse     ] [ --noconfmem  ] [ --nospinner   ]
          [ --oneshot   ] [ --onlydeps   ] [ --quiet-build [ y | n ]        ]
          [ --reinstall changed-use      ] [ --with-bdeps < y | n >         ]
Actions:  [ --depclean | --list-sets | --search | --sync | --version        ]

   For more help consult the man page.


NeddySeagoon wrote:
josephg,

You don't have very much in world yet and you have only been compiling changed things so far.

Your world file only contains thing you have explicitly emerged. Its empty in the stage3 tarball.
Do
Code:
emerge -epv

The dark green packages are installed as dependancies.
The bright green packages are named in your world file.

To read your world file directly,
Code:
less /var/lib/portage/world
works.
Its a verybadthing to edit your world file directly.


ah sir, remember you rescued me from that selinux saga. i had pulled a whole load of garbage containing whatnots i'm still going through with a toothcomb trying to purge those remnants.

thanks for the tip! so this is my world..

Code:
# cat /var/lib/portage/world
app-admin/sudo
app-arch/tarsync
app-misc/tmux
app-misc/tmux-mem-cpu-load
app-portage/gentoolkit
lxqt-base/lxqt-admin
lxqt-base/lxqt-config
lxqt-base/lxqt-notificationd
lxqt-base/lxqt-panel
lxqt-base/lxqt-qtplugin
lxqt-base/lxqt-runner
lxqt-base/lxqt-session
lxqt-base/lxqt-sudo
media-libs/qt-gstreamer
media-plugins/gst-plugins-vaapi
media-sound/alsa-utils
media-video/mpv
net-misc/dhcpcd
net-misc/dropbear
net-misc/netifrc
net-wireless/iw
net-wireless/wpa_supplicant
sys-apps/pciutils
sys-boot/grub
sys-fs/btrfs-progs
sys-fs/eudev
sys-fs/ncdu
sys-kernel/genkernel
sys-kernel/gentoo-sources
sys-kernel/linux-firmware
sys-power/phc-intel
www-client/lynx
www-client/qupzilla
www-plugins/adobe-flash
x11-apps/intel-gpu-tools
x11-base/xorg-drivers
x11-base/xorg-server
x11-drivers/xf86-video-intel
x11-libs/libva-vdpau-driver
x11-misc/obconf-qt
x11-misc/redshift
x11-misc/vdpauinfo
x11-terms/qterminal
x11-themes/hicolor-icon-theme
x11-wm/jwm
x11-wm/openbox


there is a lot more garbage loitering around on my system. i suppose your definition of the world is what you have specifically installed. and not every package on your system. i must confess, that did confuse me!

does this mean you can't rid of other packages not in your world?


Last edited by josephg on Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg wrote:
does this mean you can't rid of other packages not in your world?

josephg ... no, in fact by their not being in @world (or a dependency of same) they are slated for removal.

Code:
# emerge --depclean --ask

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless they are in @system. Which I think your profile gives you.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg wrote:
this is where i am right now. just about feeling like i'm starting to understand use flags.

i created the file /etc/portage/package.use. i think one file listing packages per line is more cleaner, than a directory full of files with one line each. it would also be handy listing out often used flags.

there was a directory by that same name /etc/portage/package.use, which i deleted (moved elsewhere).
that directory had two files, none of which i had created. one was intel with a single line. another was called iputils with 43 lines.

i hope i haven't trashed my system. but nothing gives me more pleasure than to uninstall packages, delete lots of directories/files, and rip out code. i keep testing the boundaries of minimalism.

IMHO that's the best way to have a fine grained control of packages USE flags. Avoid useless or redundant settings and you could run your system with less than 50 lines in /etc/portage/packages.use.
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