Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
GNOME Without Systemd
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Documentation, Tips & Tricks
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dantrell
n00b
n00b


Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:47 am    Post subject: GNOME Without Systemd Reply with quote

For those not familiar with the matter, the state of GNOME is such that:
  • systemd is not a hard compile time dependency
  • systemd is a hard run time dependency for basic functionality
Basic functionality is what the GNOME team has decided includes:
  • power management
  • session tracking
  • lid close handling
  • log/event viewing
  • Wayland (in GNOME, not in general)
This means that right now without applying any patches you can run GNOME (yes, even 3.16) in 2 official conditions:
  • GNOME with systemd and with basic functionality (which is supported out of the box in Gentoo)
  • GNOME without systemd and without basic functionality
Support for the latter condition in Gentoo involves:
  • globally disabling the systemd USE flag
  • disabling the kms USE flag on mutter
  • unmasking and enabling the openrc-force USE flag
But what if you want to use GNOME without systemd and with basic functionality?

Simple, you utilize my patchset which I have officially assisted Funtoo Linux in implementing since GNOME 3.12. It reintegrates support for everything but Wayland. Until recently, practically the only way for Gentoo Linux users to enjoy a similar experience was to utilize Sakaki's funtoo-2-gentoo shim overlay. This is no longer the case as I have decided to extend support to Gentoo Linux directly through the GNOME Without Systemd project. Those seeking background information (such as the description of the project, my rationale for creating it, the length of long-term support, the frequency of updates and so forth) can begin with the Introduction while those wanting to jump right in can skip ahead to Getting Started. If you have any trouble, feel free to contact me directly.

In short, my patchset aside, anyone telling you that choosing GNOME means choosing systemd is wrong. Granted, one day, GNOME may really and truly depend on systemd, but that day is not today. So in the meantime, for Gentoo and Funtoo Linux users who still desire in a choice in how they run GNOME, they have one.
_________________
Dantrell B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tw04l124
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 2842
Location: A t z e l, lower austria

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can I see the contents of: eselect profile set dantrell-gnome:default/amd64/3.16

I think I prefer setting those useflags myself as to rely on a preset which I may not need int he first place ...


and how much memory does gnome needs these days?
htop memory usagae after startup on amd64, ty

Does failback gnome still works or is this deprecated? I am only interested in that failback gnome thing..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 4285
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: GNOME Without Systemd Reply with quote

dantrell wrote:
Basic functionality is what the GNOME team has decided includes:
  • power management
  • session tracking
  • lid close handling
  • log/event viewing
  • Wayland (in GNOME, not in general)
..
..my patchset ..reintegrates support for everything but Wayland. Until recently, practically the only way for Gentoo Linux users to enjoy a similar experience was to utilize Sakaki's funtoo-2-gentoo shim overlay. This is no longer the case as I have decided to extend support to Gentoo Linux directly through the GNOME Without Systemd project.

In short, my patchset aside, anyone telling you that choosing GNOME means choosing systemd is wrong. Granted, one day, GNOME may really and truly depend on systemd, but that day is not today. So in the meantime, for Gentoo and Funtoo Linux users who still desire in a choice in how they run GNOME, they have one.

Great job! :-)
tw04l124 wrote:
I think I prefer setting those useflags myself as to rely on a preset which I may not need in the first place...

It's the same as setting your profile to desktop/anything-else; you can still override globally or on a per-package basis.
The defaults just tend to be well-tested by the upstream ebuild or overlay maintainer, as well as other users.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
keitho2000
n00b
n00b


Joined: 10 Jul 2015
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a difference between your overlay and the funtoo overlay? this forum post it says funtoo comes with this overlay, but on your github guide there are steps to add it to funtoo. I'm currently using funtoo, and gnome is in the repository and available without systemd, but version 3.16 isn't available. If it's the same overlay, is there a reason for 3.16 not being available?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dantrell
n00b
n00b


Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
How can I see the contents of: eselect profile set dantrell-gnome:default/amd64/3.16

I think I prefer setting those useflags myself as to rely on a preset which I may not need int he first place ...


and how much memory does gnome needs these days?
htop memory usagae after startup on amd64, ty

Does failback gnome still works or is this deprecated? I am only interested in that failback gnome thing..

The contents are in the generic GNOME repository.

Regarding memory usage, reference "Memory consumption of Linux desktop environments".

As for Fallback Mode, it was dropped in GNOME 3.8. What they have now is GNOME Classic.

steveL wrote:
[...]
Great job! :-)

Thanks. :)

keitho2000 wrote:
Is there a difference between your overlay and the funtoo overlay? this forum post it says funtoo comes with this overlay, but on your github guide there are steps to add it to funtoo. I'm currently using funtoo, and gnome is in the repository and available without systemd, but version 3.16 isn't available. If it's the same overlay, is there a reason for 3.16 not being available?

Yes, there is a difference between my overlay and Funtoo's overlay. My overlay:
  • is compatible with both Gentoo and Funtoo linux
  • always has the latest version of my patchset
  • easily supports switching between GNOME release versions
Furthermore, Funtoo's GNOME overlay is not directly derived from mine. They have an earlier version of my patchset which was manually integrated and which they are independently maintaining. If you check FL-2485 on their bug tracker, I already gave them the information they need to implement GNOME 3.16 however they wish. Perhaps they are still reviewing things?
_________________
Dantrell B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tw04l124
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 2842
Location: A t z e l, lower austria

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[edit] removed as i think it was offtopic ...

I realized measuring memory usage is a bit tricky.

thank link uses systemd, and other services which are not really essential and drives up memory consumption

And i prefer the memory value x-screensaver + nvidia-binary-gpu blob after entered password to the log in manager ..
I also saw top and htop have different memory footprints which should be considered too.

that stuff looks like in the good old gnome 2 days ...


Last edited by tw04l124 on Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:25 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 34965
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dantrell,

Nice work. Thank you.
It may be a while before I can test it.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, I can confirm that the 3.14 version of GNOME from this overlay (haven't tried 3.16 yet) builds and runs successfully on a 'stock' amd64 install.

I've put together a short page on the Gentoo wiki here covering the steps involved, for those interested. Please feel free to edit.

Also, I'd like to thank Dantrell B. for his great work making this available to the Gentoo community (and for effectively letting me off the maintenance hook for the funtoo-2-gentoo shim ^-^)

It'd be great if dantrell's overlays could make it into the official Gentoo repos one day!

Edit: now tested 3.16 from the overlay also (on ~amd64); builds and runs successfully.
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheuk3
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, I have install the 3-16 version but when i run emerge --depclean after emerge --newuse --changed-use --deep --update @world, it will unemerge all gnome apps? how can i prevent this? thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, did you set the "dantrell-gnome:default/amd64/3.16" profile, prior to updating @world? Also, is this a fresh installation, or do you already have GNOME installed on your machine?

(And, minor point, but since --newuse is a superset of --changed-use, you don't need both together)
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheuk3
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi, I have reinstall the system again, this time only the following package will be unmerge with --depclean, is it safe to unmerge those package? Thanks

All selected packages: =media-fonts/liberation-fonts-2.00.1-r1 =x11-apps/mkfontscale-1.1.2 =x11-libs/xpyb-1.3.1-r3 =x11-apps/mkfontdir-1.0.7 =media-fonts/encodings-1.0.4 =x11-libs/libXaw-1.0.13 =dev-lang/nasm-2.11.08 =x11-libs/libXpm-3.5.11 =net-nds/openldap-2.4.40-r4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, so on the VirtualBox VM I use for testing dantrell's overlays, after a 3.16 install (based on a vanilla handbook ~amd64 system, per these instructions), emerge --depclean wants to remove (inter alia) dev-lang/nasm-2.11.08 and media-fonts/liberation-fonts-2.00.1-r1.

The other packages that you mention (mkfontscale etc) are not installed (on my system) to begin with. If I then go through with the emerge --depclean and reboot, the system comes up fine into GNOME 3.16.

So yes, I think you should be fine to unmerge the list of packages cited.
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheuk3
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, i got another problem with nautilus, when i use the new dropdown menu to change the view (icon or list). the nautilus freeze and ended...
I have tried to recomplie it but still same happen. do you have this problem? Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, just tried this: nautilus freezes when the view toggle dropdown is used for me also, on 3.16.
This occurred on my VM build both before and after the depclean (I have snapshots either side), so that's not the issue.
The view can be switched OK on nautilus on GNOME 3.14, no freeze.
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheuk3
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm...I can switch the view with shortcut
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dantrell
n00b
n00b


Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheuk3 wrote:
Hi, i got another problem with nautilus, when i use the new dropdown menu to change the view (icon or list). the nautilus freeze and ended...
I have tried to recomplie it but still same happen. do you have this problem? Thanks!

Sakaki wrote:
Yes, just tried this: nautilus freezes when the view toggle dropdown is used for me also, on 3.16.
This occurred on my VM build both before and after the depclean (I have snapshots either side), so that's not the issue.
The view can be switched OK on nautilus on GNOME 3.14, no freeze.

Sakaki, thanks for verifying the issue. However, since it isn't related to my patchset, it should really be reported elsewhere. Although my guess is that it already has been and may even be resolved with Nautilus commit 394fde4 (which hasn't been backported to 3.16 yet).

Still, I will be happy resolve this issue on my end if it isn't handled in a reasonable amount of time.
_________________
Dantrell B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those interested in using Dantrell's overlays in Gentoo, I have just extended my EFI Install Guide to include instructions for installing GNOME 3 under OpenRC (the default systemd instructions are also retained, of course).

As before, those looking for shorter-form instructions should look instead at the GNOME without systemd wiki entry.
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
waynedpj
n00b
n00b


Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:26 pm    Post subject: thanks! Reply with quote

ahoy all,

just wanted to say THANKS to dantrell and Sakaki for the ability to run GNOME & co. w/o systemd! for quite a while i have been stuck with crazy package.{use,keywords,mask} settings in order to keep using Evolution 2.32 w/o GNOME+systemd. eventually it just stopped working and screwed up my system. regardless, while i have not installed all of GNOME 3, i can report that GNOME 3 apps like Evolution work fine with this setup. in particular i followed Sakaki's https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd guide.

this also has made me learn a little about Funtoo, which seems worth a closer look.

i did have 1 question: is it necessary to activate the dantrell-gnome:default/amd64/3.16 profile if i am not installing all of GNOME 3? so far it seems to be willing to update w/o the profile selected?

finally, thanks again so much, this has been a big big help!

peace, w
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dantrell
n00b
n00b


Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: thanks! Reply with quote

waynedpj wrote:
i did have 1 question: is it necessary to activate the dantrell-gnome:default/amd64/3.16 profile if i am not installing all of GNOME 3? so far it seems to be willing to update w/o the profile selected?

The bundled profiles are there to expedite matters for a default install.

If you have unique requirements (such as a partial install), then in lieu of activating a profile, you simply have to manage the relevant configuration yourself in /etc/portage/*.
_________________
Dantrell B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick update - Dantrell B has now made a patchset for GNOME 3.18 available (in addition to 3.14 and 3.16, which remain supported). I have tried emerging this under ~amd64 and it works fine (for me).

I've modified the Gentoo wiki page GNOME Without systemd to reflect the availability of this new version. I have also (for those interested in more 'end-to-end' system install instructions) updated the OpenRC track of my EFI Install Guide, and added a corresponding 3.18 profile to the dantrell-gnome-reparent overlay, for those who use this.

PS 3.18 does not appear to have the 'Nautilus freeze on list/icon toggle' issue which has impacted some users of 3.16 under OpenRC.
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 4285
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good one Sakaki.

Do please both, keep up the good work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sakaki
n00b
n00b


Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

another quick update: Dantrell is now providing a set of 'extended' profiles (in addition to his existing, 'regular' variants, which remain supported) for each of GNOME 3.14, 3.16 and 3.18, as part of his patchset.

These new profiles provide a close USE-flag match to their familiar Gentoo desktop/gnome cousins, and (happily!) make my dantrell-gnome-reparent profiles redundant.

As such, users of the dantrell-gnome-reparent profiles (for example, those who have installed GNOME on OpenRC using my EFI Install Guide (OpenRC track)), should migrate now to the corresponding 'extended' Dantrell profile.

For example, if you were using dantrell-gnome-reparent:default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop/gnome/3.14, you should sync all your overlays, then issue:
Code:
# eselect profile set "dantrell-gnome:default/amd64/3.14/extended"
# emerge --ask --verbose --deep --with-bdeps=y --changed-use --update @world

The Gentoo wiki page GNOME without systemd, and my EFI Install Guide, have been updated to reflect these new profiles.

Now we just have to get Dantrell's patchset accepted into the main Gentoo tree ^-^
_________________
Regards,

sakaki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shibotto
n00b
n00b


Joined: 19 Jun 2015
Posts: 6
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi and thanks for your hard work. I've noticed the "deprecated-background" useflag in gnome-shell and mutter, 3.18 branch, but it seems the patches are missing from the repo. Does it mean this useflag is deprecated or the patch files were simply forgotten?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dantrell
n00b
n00b


Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 50
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shibotto wrote:
Hi and thanks for your hard work. I've noticed the "deprecated-background" useflag in gnome-shell and mutter, 3.18 branch, but it seems the patches are missing from the repo. Does it mean this useflag is deprecated or the patch files were simply forgotten?

The patches aren't missing, they are just referenced incorrectly in the ebuilds which prevents them from applying (besides, the patches are incomplete). The USE flag isn't deprecated either, I just use that word as a prefix to mean that the codepaths they relate to are deprecated upstream and not that I deprecated them.

If you look at the table in Configuration (Optional Quality of Life Improvements) you'll notice that patch is only supported with GNOME 3.14. It's not that I can't support it in 3.16 and/or 3.18, it's just that I haven't had a reason to do so.

Are you experiencing wallpaper corruption when resuming from suspend?
_________________
Dantrell B.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shibotto
n00b
n00b


Joined: 19 Jun 2015
Posts: 6
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dantrell wrote:
The patches aren't missing, they are just referenced incorrectly in the ebuilds which prevents them from applying (besides, the patches are incomplete). The USE flag isn't deprecated either, I just use that word as a prefix to mean that the codepaths they relate to are deprecated upstream and not that I deprecated them.

If you look at the table in Configuration (Optional Quality of Life Improvements) you'll notice that patch is only supported with GNOME 3.14. It's not that I can't support it in 3.16 and/or 3.18, it's just that I haven't had a reason to do so.


Oh, I see. I misunderstood the missing files/ dir in x11-wm/mutter.

dantrell wrote:
Are you experiencing wallpaper corruption when resuming from suspend?


So it seems
http://i.imgur.com/li3UPrZ.jpg
This or similar patterns is what I get when I resume from suspend. Using Nvidia 340.96.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Documentation, Tips & Tricks All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum