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dolphinaura
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:25 am    Post subject: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

Ive encontered a weird problem.
To enable realtime audio, I have to disable CPU Group Sheduling.
The problem is, if im using BFS, there is no such "cpu group scheduling" option in menuconfig.

Is there some say to get BFS and the CPU Group Scheduling option at once, or does BFS not support it?

im using the zen kernels btw
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK, it's either enable bfs, or cgroups, but not both.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

dolphinaura wrote:
Is there some say to get BFS and the CPU Group Scheduling option at once, or does BFS not support it?

http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt wrote:
On top of the current scheduler design, it has a SCHED_IDLEPRIO which actually
does only schedule tasks when idle, and SCHED_ISO for unprivileged realtime
performance. BFS does NOT implement CGROUPS. A desktop user should not need
know about CGROUPS
, nor should they need to use them.".

BTW, If your intention was to let's say... get both BFS + "Galbraith-Patch"... well then... it's a waste of time IMHO...
Not to say that I doubt you would get support from ck... :twisted:

EDIT : I did not understand your question with regard to the title of your thread. What is Jack doing there ?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
dolphinaura wrote:
Is there some say to get BFS and the CPU Group Scheduling option at once, or does BFS not support it?

http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt wrote:
On top of the current scheduler design, it has a SCHED_IDLEPRIO which actually
does only schedule tasks when idle, and SCHED_ISO for unprivileged realtime
performance. BFS does NOT implement CGROUPS. A desktop user should not need
know about CGROUPS
, nor should they need to use them.".

BTW, If your intention was to let's say... get both BFS + "Galbraith-Patch"... well then... it's a waste of time IMHO...
Not to say that I doubt you would get support from ck... :twisted:

EDIT : I did not understand your question with regard to the title of your thread. What is Jack doing there ?


afaik jack-audio-connection-kit need realtime capabilities or a kernel being capable to offer low-latency to work reasonably well

BFS offers both (?) -

@dolphinaura:

you won't need group scheduling - try BFS on it's own - that should work out well
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:
afaik jack-audio-connection-kit need realtime capabilities or a kernel being capable to offer low-latency to work reasonably well
BFS offers both (?) -

Hmmm...
jack-audio-connection-kit needs a scheduler able to elect it as frequently as possible for the greatest possible amount of time ! :evil:
<flaming>
Whoever would come with such a solution for simply copying a buffer from somewhere to elsewhere under a true real-time kernel would be sent (back) to hell !
</flaming>
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
kernelOfTruth wrote:
afaik jack-audio-connection-kit need realtime capabilities or a kernel being capable to offer low-latency to work reasonably well
BFS offers both (?) -

Hmmm...
jack-audio-connection-kit needs a scheduler able to elect it as frequently as possible for the greatest possible amount of time ! :evil:
<flaming>
Whoever would come with such a solution for simply copying a buffer from somewhere to elsewhere under a true real-time kernel would be sent (back) to hell !
</flaming>


the same goes for pulseaudio

which might be even worse (I haven't use jack-audio-connection-kit yet)

at least I have to say that using 2.6.37 + CFS-patch (update) to 2.6.38 state + fixes (with autogroup enabled)

really makes pulseaudio usable

even before that with chrt -p -v -r 9 $(ps -C pulseaudio -o pid=) it still would stutter or not work nicely

now chrt isn't needed anymore (autogroup also doesn't support some realtime features)
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dolphinaura
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
dolphinaura wrote:
Is there some say to get BFS and the CPU Group Scheduling option at once, or does BFS not support it?

http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt wrote:
On top of the current scheduler design, it has a SCHED_IDLEPRIO which actually
does only schedule tasks when idle, and SCHED_ISO for unprivileged realtime
performance. BFS does NOT implement CGROUPS. A desktop user should not need
know about CGROUPS
, nor should they need to use them.".

BTW, If your intention was to let's say... get both BFS + "Galbraith-Patch"... well then... it's a waste of time IMHO...
Not to say that I doubt you would get support from ck... :twisted:

EDIT : I did not understand your question with regard to the title of your thread. What is Jack doing there ?


afaik jack-audio-connection-kit need realtime capabilities or a kernel being capable to offer low-latency to work reasonably well

BFS offers both (?) -

@dolphinaura:

you won't need group scheduling - try BFS on it's own - that should work out well


and... it does!
Thanks! :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:
kernelOfTruth wrote:
afaik jack-audio-connection-kit need realtime capabilities or a kernel being capable to offer low-latency to work reasonably well
BFS offers both (?) -

Hmmm...
jack-audio-connection-kit needs a scheduler able to elect it as frequently as possible for the greatest possible amount of time ! :evil:
<flaming>
Whoever would come with such a solution for simply copying a buffer from somewhere to elsewhere under a true real-time kernel would be sent (back) to hell !
</flaming>


the same goes for pulseaudio

which might be even worse (I haven't use jack-audio-connection-kit yet)

at least I have to say that using 2.6.37 + CFS-patch (update) to 2.6.38 state + fixes (with autogroup enabled)

really makes pulseaudio usable

even before that with chrt -p -v -r 9 $(ps -C pulseaudio -o pid=) it still would stutter or not work nicely

now chrt isn't needed anymore (autogroup also doesn't support some realtime features)

pulseaudio was the reason why I switched to jack.
With all the crackling, popping, and stuttering I was getting....
Currently, in JACK, I have none. (both were realtime)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Bfs + jack Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:

the same goes for pulseaudio
which might be even worse

It does indeed and it is indeed. :evil:
(One could nevertheless argue that pulse tries to do a bit more than just copying a buffer from somewhere to elsewhere...)

Anyway, I got rid of pulseaudio and made my system Jack-only from the beginning.

Coming back on Jack justifying BFS over CFS, I do not completely agree.

It greatly depends on :

- Is the system overloaded with tons of non-audio related stuff running while using jack ?
- Is the hardware a bit too old / too low end mono-processor / too poor in ram...

In which case, I agree that BFS is to be preferred.

If it is not the case then CFS + preemptible kernel + timer frequency = 1000 + appropriate declarations in /etc/security/limits.conf is (IMHO) better.

- The only difference I noticed in favour of BFS is that for a given hardware / given latency / given load, I get less very-first-initial-XRUN with BFS than with CFS.
- As a significant inconveniency, when jackd bugs, the only solution I get with BFS is to reset ! Under CFS... well... it'll take me no less than 2 minutes but... I can SIGKILL it... !

As my conclusion to date, I would say that :
kernelOfTruth wrote:
afaik jack-audio-connection-kit need realtime capabilities or a kernel being capable to offer low-latency to work reasonably well ... BFS offers both (?) -

BFS offers both... to a restricted set of apps to the full expense of all the others. (This potentially including processes needed in the audio chain) :twisted:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, I've followed advice from the wiki (http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/JACK) but I got the first stumbling block:

I shall execute

Code:
jackd -d alsa


or
Code:
jackd -R -d alsa



but there's NO jackd installed

only jackdbus

would that be the file or executable in question ?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:
would that be the file or executable in question ?

jackd and jackdbus are two incarnations (sic) of the jack server.
jackd is the legacy version of the server that interacts with the ~/jackdrc setting file.
This setting file may be written by Qjackctl or Ardour.

This is what I work with.

jackdbus is the new D-Bus aware version of the server, it uses a completely new setting management system using a "conf.xml" file.

I never tested it.

What did you emerge from where in order to be left jackd-less ?

EDIT : Well... I mean that logically after emergeing :
media-sound/jack-audio-connection-kit-0.118.0 USE="-3dnow alsa (-altivec) (-coreaudio) -cpudetection -debug -doc -examples mmx -oss sse"
From portage, jackd should be installed in /usr/bin

Would you have tried installing jack2 from some sombre overlay ?
In which case, the wiki you used does not apply to this version of jack.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that was before:
emerge jacksum libflashsupport-jack gst-plugins-jack jack-rack qjackctl projectm-jack jack-tools jackEQ jack_capture jack_mixer jackmeter jackminimix jackmix madjack jackd-init -pv
wrote:
Error during set creation: Redefinition of set 'koffice' (sections: 'usersets', 'kde sets')
Error during set creation: Redefinition of set 'plasmoids' (sections: 'usersets', 'kde sets')
Error during set creation: Redefinition of set 'koffice-2' (sections: 'usersets', 'kde sets')

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies ... done!
* Please fix your ebuild to not inherit the deprecated qt3.eclass
[ebuild N ] media-libs/liblo-0.26 USE="ipv6 -doc -static-libs" 508 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/lash-0.6.0_rc2 USE="alsa gtk python -debug" 422 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/qjackctl-0.3.7 USE="alsa dbus -debug -portaudio" 410 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-python/gnome-python-2.28.1 0 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-python/fpconst-0.7.3 10 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-plugins/swh-plugins-0.4.15-r1 USE="nls sse -3dnow" 1,027 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-libs/libprojectm-2.0.1-r1 USE="openmp -debug" VIDEO_CARDS="-nvidia" 846 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-libs/liblrdf-0.4.0 330 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-libs/libflashsupport-jack-9999 0 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-plugins/gst-plugins-jack-0.10.19 2,939 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jack_capture-0.9.56 USE="gtk" 47 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jackmeter-0.3 140 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jackminimix-0.2 107 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jackmix-0.4 38 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/madjack-0.4 159 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-libs/libprojectm-qt-2.0.1 USE="-debug" 97 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jack-rack-1.4.7-r1 USE="alsa gnome lash nls xml" 311 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jackEQ-0.4.1 269 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jack_mixer-9 USE="lash -debug -phat" 373 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] sys-apps/jackd-init-0.5 0 kB [1]
[ebuild N ] app-crypt/jacksum-1.7.0 437 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/projectm-jack-2.0.1 35 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-lang/ghc-6.12.3 USE="-bash-completion -binary -doc -ghcbootstrap" 106,430 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] app-admin/haskell-updater-1.1.3.0 23 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/cabal-1.8.0.6-r1 USE="-doc -profile" 222 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/mtl-1.1.0.2 USE="-doc -profile" 19 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/utf8-string-0.3.6 USE="-doc -profile" 9 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/zlib-0.5.2.0 USE="-doc -profile" 123 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/parsec-2.1.0.1 USE="-doc -profile" 16 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/terminfo-0.3.1.1 USE="-doc -profile" 42 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/mmap-0.4.1 USE="-doc -profile" 6 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/html-1.0.1.2 USE="-doc -profile" 11 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/binary-0.5.0.2 USE="-doc -profile" 41 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/dataenc-0.13.0.2 USE="-doc -profile" 13 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/regex-base-0.93.1 USE="-doc -profile" 9 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/hashed-storage-0.4.13 USE="-doc -profile -test" 54 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/haskeline-0.6.2.2 USE="-doc -profile" 49 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/network-2.2.1.7 USE="-doc -profile" 110 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/regex-posix-0.94.1 USE="-doc -profile" 13 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-haskell/regex-compat-0.92 USE="-doc -profile" 5 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] dev-vcs/darcs-2.4.4-r1 USE="-bash-completion -doc -profile -test" 1,166 kB [0]
[ebuild N ] media-sound/jack-tools-9999 0 kB [1]

Total: 42 packages (42 new), Size of downloads: 116,847 kB
Portage tree and overlays:
[0] /usr/gentoo/portage
[1] /usr/gentoo/overlays/proaudio


this after the emerge:
emerge wrote:
* The following 2 packages have failed to build or install:
*
* (media-sound/jackmix-0.4::proaudio, ebuild scheduled for merge), Log file:
* '/var/log/portage/media-sound:jackmix-0.4:20110120-185831.log'
* (media-sound/madjack-0.4::proaudio, ebuild scheduled for merge), Log file:
* '/var/log/portage/media-sound:madjack-0.4:20110120-185837.log'


so it should be included but it isn't I'm meanwhile trying to install jack-audio-connection-kit

would it be worth a try ?

is it better ?

I haven't restarted my box yet and there's totally no sound whatsoever ;)

thanks !

edit:

also strangely there doesn't seem to be any jackdmp ebuild anymore in the pro-audio overlay :(
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right... so you did install jack from some somber overlay ! => You got jack2 (jackdbus)

Is it worth trying ?

Well... I honestly do not know. I use jackd only and keep myself far from pro-audio's overlay thingies.

Jackd (from portage's jack-audio-connection-kit) does the job I am waiting for period. :P

I see at least two advantages for you to go with portage's version :

- The wiki will be helpful :wink:
- The community of users ready and able to help you (real users I mean, those pluging at least 30 clients to jack and using jack for making sound, not users having jack for testing fancy features) is far more important under jackd than under jackdbus. 8)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kernelOfTruth wrote:

also strangely there doesn't seem to be any jackdmp ebuild anymore in the pro-audio overlay :(


jackdmp is obsolote. Use jack-audio-connection-kit-1.9.6 for jack2. You can have old jackd server with the "classic" useflag or the new dbus support with the "dbus" useflag. Or you can have them both :) I am very happy with the new dbus interface. There was a discussion here with some explanations.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@aCOSwt, keenblade:

thanks to both of you

I went "back" to 0.118.0, copied over some useful tools from the pro-audio overlay and it's working nice now !

man - that's a difference

whereas pulseaudio (with the so-called realtime use-flag) would create 25-62% of load

jackd now only uses roughly 1% and sound's not stuttering
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok - I now nearly tested all audio or video apps with jack

and the only ones not working are

vlc

and

totem


I selected jack in vlc, also re-compiled it with pulseaudio use-flag disabled but still no sound

totem wouldn't work with:

"the playback of this movie requires a gstreamer element uridecodebin plugin which is not installed"
Plugin Error "unable to activate plugin screenshot"
Plugin Error "unable to active plugins movie properties"


totem might be related to something else (exaile and brasero - both utilizing gstreamer work fine)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest you launch jackd via the QJackCtl interface.
Then you activate the Messages and Connect windows
Then you launch you client (vlc for example)
Then you post here :
1/ Have you seen some linked established between you client (vlc or any other) and Jack ?
2/ The logs as seen in the message window.

EDIT : BTW jack works with vlc, I have helped i92guboj on this forum on this subject.
Cannot tell for totem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok,

that worked (for vlc) :P

thanks again aCOSwt !

I just needed to connect the 2 outputs

D'oh ! 8O

seems like I still need to get used to that :wink:

edit:

the strange this is that it's not being connected at startup so something's wrong with vlc

besides that I now also can't hear sound / connect since the "connect" button is greyed out :(

edit2:

how can select 5.1 surround sound output, btw ?

setup -> output channels -> 6 (?)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1/ Surround with jack

Well jack gets indeed into troubles when the number of outputs differs from the number of inputs, which is actually the case with surroundXX
In order to avoid these troubles you must create a new virtual device.
As this needs "magic incantations" (sic), I prefer you follow the link to the official book of scrolls : :arrow:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/SurroundSound#Using_surroundXX_PCMs_with_JACK

2/
kernelOfTruth wrote:
the strange this is that it's not being connected at startup

Well... as jack is a connection kit, please do always explicitly mention what is not connected to what :
Do you mean that vlc client does not connect automatically to jack at vlc startup ?
Do you mean you can see vlc in the client windows but you have to drag and drop it's output to one writable input port manually ?

If this is it then :

Warning : The only vlc version I know is 1.0.2 (water might well have passed under the bridges since... so please adapt)
- Under vlc, go to tools->preferences->audio,
- Enable advanced view.
- See the radiobuttons in the left bottom corner
- Enable jack and there you can give it a string to match port names to which it will then be
auto-connected
.

BTW, Auto-connection feature seems convenient and some kind of obvious and compulsory feature as long as you get a single writable client available. But do not forget that jack is a connection kit. When you start using it really for what it is designed for, you are likely to quickly get half a dozen of writable clients and will then dislike the automatic connection to system/playbacks... :twisted:
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