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Florida Alters "Stand Your Ground"
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Yay or nay?
Yay!
61%
 61%  [ 8 ]
Nay!
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Meh.
15%
 15%  [ 2 ]
Whatever something HMES...
23%
 23%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 13

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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Florida Alters "Stand Your Ground" Reply with quote

Burden of proof is now squarely on the prosecutors to prove that the defendant wasn't acting in self defense.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay!

I thought that was part of basic US law.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Yay!

I thought that was part of basic US law.


Then how comes police or other government officials (IRS, etc) can seize your property and/or bank account without a court order and _you_ have to fight to get it back? Presumed innocent my foot. Yes, police can take away your home if they _think_ it is used for illegal activity, for starters.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
pjp wrote:
Yay!

I thought that was part of basic US law.


Then how comes police or other government officials (IRS, etc) can seize your property and/or bank account without a court order and _you_ have to fight to get it back? Presumed innocent my foot. Yes, police can take away your home if they _think_ it is used for illegal activity, for starters.

What are you referring to? I know that the IRS can put something called a garnish on your account if you go years without paying taxes.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm.

While I feel perfectly fine with this (fully support it and wish it were universally applied to all states and regions) so long as the act of self defense was on the defender's (not in the legal sense but in the self-defence sense) property.

Once the defender is outside their own property I'm not sure I agree. I'll have to stew on that, and as such have refrained from making a vote in the poll here thus far.

I am currently leaning toward something like "if the situation occurred on neutral ground then burden of proof should be neutral".

I'm still undecided. It just seems too close to what most educated folks know: the history books are written by the victors. Just because you survived without any other witnesses does not mean one should get away with murder.

It's a tough call for me. A good mental puzzle to chew on.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IRS has the right to take your money if they think you are trying to avoid taxes. They do not have to prove it. You have to prove you didn't do anything wrong. There was a case when a bank clerk recommended to a business owner not to make cash deposits over $10k (less work for clerk, no need to file paperwork with IRS). IRS found it out and seized the whole account because it matched their pattern for money laundering. It was something in excess in $100k, I think. In fact there was nothing illegal about those deposits, but IRS refused to give the money back. Just one example what they can do. Lawlessness it is.
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Last edited by Jaglover on Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Muso
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

F*** the IRS. If we must have an income tax, make it flat, so we can eliminate the IRS completely.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact is the presumption of innocence applies only to your person in the USA, it does not expand to your belongings. Something you might want to contact your congressman about.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
The fact is the presumption of innocence applies only to your person in the USA, it does not expand to your belongings. Something you might want to contact your congressman about.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

My representative
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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Jaglover wrote:
pjp wrote:
Yay!

I thought that was part of basic US law.


Then how comes police or other government officials (IRS, etc) can seize your property and/or bank account without a court order and _you_ have to fight to get it back? Presumed innocent my foot. Yes, police can take away your home if they _think_ it is used for illegal activity, for starters.

What are you referring to? I know that the IRS can put something called a garnish on your account if you go years without paying taxes.


Generally it's called civil forfeiture. The seized item can be accused of a crime, and as an item is not a person, it has no rights.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R0b0t1 wrote:
Generally it's called civil forfeiture. The seized item can be accused of a crime, and as an item is not a person, it has no rights.

Only a complete and total moron would think that an inanimate object can perform an action off its own bat.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
Only a complete and total moron would think that an inanimate object can perform an action off its own bat.


And yet you blame guns and knives instead of people for violence.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
R0b0t1 wrote:
Generally it's called civil forfeiture. The seized item can be accused of a crime, and as an item is not a person, it has no rights.

Only a complete and total moron would think that an inanimate object can perform an action off its own bat.

Yet this is the reality in the USA. A nation so proud about protection of human rights lacks basic rights, government officials can rob citizens at their will.

I made an internet search, there is plenty of articles like this:

http://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/police-seizing-cash-and-property-from-citizens-without-charges/
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaglover wrote:
pjp wrote:
Yay!

I thought that was part of basic US law.


Then how comes police or other government officials (IRS, etc) can seize your property and/or bank account without a court order and _you_ have to fight to get it back? Presumed innocent my foot. Yes, police can take away your home if they _think_ it is used for illegal activity, for starters.
Corruption and citizen apathy (or ignorance).
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
And yet you blame guns and knives instead of people for violence.

You're clearly thinking of someone else.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Only a complete and total moron would think that an inanimate object can perform an action off its own bat.


And yet you blame guns and knives instead of people for violence.
when does anyone do that?

And as per the original post; the situation would decide whether or not it's self defence. In court you have to a) prove beyond a reasonable doubt and b) show what a reasonable person would so so the law hasn't really changed at all
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BonezTheGoon wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Only a complete and total moron would think that an inanimate object can perform an action off its own bat.


And yet you blame guns and knives instead of people for violence.

I've never seen aidanjt take that point of view.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
BonezTheGoon wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
Only a complete and total moron would think that an inanimate object can perform an action off its own bat.


And yet you blame guns and knives instead of people for violence.

I've never seen aidanjt take that point of view.


OK. Sincere apologies to all, and obviously most specifically to the wrongfully accused aidanjt. Not sure what I got wrong, or how, or why. My mistake, apparently.

I've been pretty sleep deprived of late. (This is not an excuse, but it might serve as a partial explanation.)

Carry on. I'll try to keep myself under better wraps.

Again, sorry.
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