Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
What's wrong with Gentoo, anyway?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
saellaven wrote:
In short, gentoo needs stronger leadership

Leaders don't develop from people sitting on the sidelines whining about what should change. Leaders come from people who get in the game and play.

++

This is so very true.
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Gentoo has been an ever derailing train wreck [...] you don't accept criticism, [...] narcissism [...] acting like a bunch of over-grown children,

You are way over the top here. This does not reflect reality. And it drowns any valid points you may have made otherwise.
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some general remarks on the other points raised in this thread:

What I see as currently the biggest problems with Gentoo are:
* its poor public image and the lack of good PR
* lack of strong leadership in certain key areas (QA, DevRel)
* recruitment process bottleneck
* ignored user contributions due to lack of organization

To cure these problems I believe we need:
* a team of dedicated people who have the balls to make decisions and enforce policies
* a strong council that enables such leaders, and doesn't let itself be sidetracked by poisonous individuals
* an active PR & UserRel team that really communicates with users and the outside world
* overhaul the website to present a professional and modern face
* revive the newsletter
* streamline the recruitment process (including quiz overhaul)
* promote and streamline user contributions (including proxy-maintainership and public documentation wiki)
* a team that reviews open bugs, especially for user contributed fixes, also maintainer-needed/maintainer-wanted bugs
* a much stronger and (pro-)active QA team
* a unified and up-to-date developer manual
* identify problem areas (such as php herd) and actively recruit to fix those
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
...you don't accept criticism...

You are way over the top here. This does not reflect reality. And it drowns any valid points you may have made otherwise.

'Nuff said.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Some general remarks on the other points raised in this thread:

What I see as currently the biggest problems with Gentoo are:
* its poor public image and the lack of good PR
* lack of strong leadership in certain key areas (QA, DevRel)
* recruitment process bottleneck
* ignored user contributions due to lack of organization

To cure these problems I believe we need:
* a team of dedicated people who have the balls to make decisions and enforce policies
* a strong council that enables such leaders, and doesn't let itself be sidetracked by poisonous individuals
* an active PR & UserRel team that really communicates with users and the outside world
* overhaul the website to present a professional and modern face
* revive the newsletter
* streamline the recruitment process (including quiz overhaul)
* promote and streamline user contributions (including proxy-maintainership and public documentation wiki)
* a team that reviews open bugs, especially for user contributed fixes, also maintainer-needed/maintainer-wanted bugs
* a much stronger and (pro-)active QA team
* a unified and up-to-date developer manual
* identify problem areas (such as php herd) and actively recruit to fix those


for my two cents, I think I can agree with all of that...

I think the hardest part for gentoo will be your first cure. At least from the outside, the appearance is things are too casually run because everyone has the "we're all volunteers" attitude. Granted, much of the linux kernel is now developed by folks getting paid, but at one point it was almost entirely unpaid volunteers and its success came down to the benevolent dictatorial hands of a few people, especially Linus (but also his various lieutenants). Linus doesn't tell people what they have to work on, but he does lay down the law on what makes it into his repository and who he trusts to vouch for the code going in since he can't possibly review it all.

Likewise, gentoo needs someone(s) to lay down the law and enforce the peace. A sheriff doesn't create the law, only enforces it based on the consensus of the citizens. Of course, that all comes back to the council and whether or not they will enact such policies and enable such individuals or if they'll bog down into their typical apparent (from the outside) bureaucratic nightmare.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beandog
Developer
Developer


Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 2004
Location: /usa/utah

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, it's been a few hours since my initial rant, and I'm calmed down now.

Sorry for snapping guys, I get a little sensitive sometimes. No harm in your direction, either, saellaven. Thanks for participating. Much love. :)

I need some cookies now.
_________________
If it ain't broke, tweak it. packages | dvds | blurays | blog | home
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beandog
Developer
Developer


Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 2004
Location: /usa/utah

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Seriously, you devs *really* don't sit back and take the time to look at your own behaviour.


Generalities really suck, and really make some devs (me) kinda bugged.

AidanJT wrote:
Your recruitment process is a joke,


I agree, but I'm too busy to help out on that project. I'm already involved in probably two dozen different ones. Sorry.

AidanJT wrote:
you frequently waste time bitching over trivialities


I don't get involved in them.

AidanJT wrote:
there's no leadership worth speaking about all


We tend to float around meritocracy. Works well for the herds I am involved in. We all respect each other's wisdom, knowledge, and work together towards the best situations we can for users after discussing possible solutions (gentoo media herds come to mind, we're a good group).

AidanJT wrote:
you don't accept criticism, even if you did you wouldn't do anything to change it.


I can think of a few times where people file stuff on bugzilla about ebuilds where they don't like my / our approach, and offer alternatives, and we've changed things around.

AidanJT wrote:
And I'm sorry, but *wah*you're not a dev so you don't know what it's like*wah* doesn't cut it.


All I meant is you're painting a picture of what you see. If you're not actually part of the problem (or solution), I don't really see how you can accurately comment on the entire situation.

AidanJT wrote:
Gentoo could be great again if its developers stopped acting like a bunch of over-grown children, sucked it up, coordinated, and worked together to get things done.


Not everyone is going to, so again, you do the best with what you have. I've accepted the practical reality that there are dork-mongers in the group. So, I avoid them, I work with them best I can, and still do my best. Just because there's bad apples isn't an excuse not to do something about it.

Batman Begins wrote:
What chance does Gotham have when the good people do nothing?

_________________
If it ain't broke, tweak it. packages | dvds | blurays | blog | home
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beandog
Developer
Developer


Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 2004
Location: /usa/utah

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I think about it, the more it seems like these threads eventually evolve into one of two attitudes: people who are pessimistic, and those who are optimistic.

I, for one, am hopeful about the future, because I know there are *some* good, honest, hard-working people doing their best to make Gentoo a good, usable community distribution.
_________________
If it ain't broke, tweak it. packages | dvds | blurays | blog | home
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
beandog
Developer
Developer


Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 2004
Location: /usa/utah

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I appreciate the work of almost all of the gentoo devs, yourself included. But there are a lot of problems in the gentoo bureaucracy. I realize that nobody really wants to deal with them, they'd rather be working on bugs, their own code, etc, but something NEEDS to change or the pool of devs will continue to be overworked and will atrophy over time as people burn out. You can either accept some of the criticism and do something about it, as unfun as the political end of things are, or else you can keep complaining that there aren't enough devs, wondering why we don't jump to join the bureaucracy.


Okay, that's a really good point. I like.

It is kind of a circular problem, isn't it. Need devs, recruitment is bogged down. We honestly do need more people to help out w/recruiting process. Kinda sucks.

Again, it's something I wish I could help out on, but ... I can't. Too much other stuff going on. :T Otherwise, I would.
_________________
If it ain't broke, tweak it. packages | dvds | blurays | blog | home
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Etal
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 1639

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
yngwin wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
...you don't accept criticism...

You are way over the top here. This does not reflect reality. And it drowns any valid points you may have made otherwise.

'Nuff said.
And here's an example of a user who aggravates the situation by his mastery of loaded language.


In the 5 years of using Gentoo, here's something I discovered, that I'm surprised a lot of fellow users just don't seem to understand:

If you try to be nice to the devs, you'll find that they're usually pretty normal people. True, sometimes you open a bug and they lash out with something like "you don't know anything now go away." But, if instead of lashing back out, you nicely explain them your view and throw in a few "thanks" or "sorry"s for a measure, soon, you'll find yourself in a perfectly civil conversation, where the dev explains his reasoning and actually listens to what you have to say. Try it, works like magic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kollin
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 1092
Location: Sofia/Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AM088 wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
yngwin wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
...you don't accept criticism...

You are way over the top here. This does not reflect reality. And it drowns any valid points you may have made otherwise.

'Nuff said.
And here's an example of a user who aggravates the situation by his mastery of loaded language.


In the 5 years of using Gentoo, here's something I discovered, that I'm surprised a lot of fellow users just don't seem to understand:

If you try to be nice to the devs, you'll find that they're usually pretty normal people. True, sometimes you open a bug and they lash out with something like "you don't know anything now go away." But, if instead of lashing back out, you nicely explain them your view and throw in a few "thanks" or "sorry"s for a measure, soon, you'll find yourself in a perfectly civil conversation, where the dev explains his reasoning and actually listens to what you have to say. Try it, works like magic.


++
_________________
"Dear Enemy: may the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment."
"Linux is like a wigwam - no windows, no gates, apache inside..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
!equilibrium
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 2109
Location: MI/BG/LC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
I still don't understand what keeps people from signing up (other than people whining that "it's probably too hard"), and I've never once heard of someone who honestly tried to become a dev, that didn't.


well, to be true, I'm trying, without success, to be a developer since two years now and Diego is my mentor but I can't be recruited due to lack of recruiters (Diego just wrote about this issue some days ago. I'm also the one who pointed out to Diego how the devmanual and the Developer's Handbook are outdated / broken and completely useless for recruiting and training new developers.

Before to gain "new blood" we need to have a better devmanual and Developer's Handbook with a consistent recruiting process.
_________________
Arch Tester for Gentoo/FreeBSD
Equilibrium's Universe

all my contents are released under the Creative Commons Licence by-nc-nd 2.5
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AM088 wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
yngwin wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
...you don't accept criticism...

You are way over the top here. This does not reflect reality. And it drowns any valid points you may have made otherwise.

'Nuff said.
And here's an example of a user who aggravates the situation by his mastery of loaded language.


In the 5 years of using Gentoo, here's something I discovered, that I'm surprised a lot of fellow users just don't seem to understand:

If you try to be nice to the devs, you'll find that they're usually pretty normal people. True, sometimes you open a bug and they lash out with something like "you don't know anything now go away." But, if instead of lashing back out, you nicely explain them your view and throw in a few "thanks" or "sorry"s for a measure, soon, you'll find yourself in a perfectly civil conversation, where the dev explains his reasoning and actually listens to what you have to say. Try it, works like magic.

Yes, but, I have better things to be doing with my free time than pandering to some developers narcissism and arrogance. If I need to, then they're useless as developers.

You see, as it turns out, developing software is a team effort, and having a big bunch of I's isn't a team. They need to get along, work with their fellow developers, testers, and end-users in order to make everything work. And pissing everyone off trying to make yourself look like a pretentious smart-ass doesn't help anything.

And yes, I realise this doesn't describe *every* developer, and that everyone has their 'off' days where they would rather not have to explain their reasoning, but they have to either bite their tongue and just do it, or be civil and leave it for a day or two for when they could be bothered to be clearer. But for a number of devs, every day is their 'off'-day.

Put it this way, if behaving in a certain manner makes you an expendable jackass to your boss, then that same behaviour should make you an expendable jackass to Gentoo. But lord save us if the council or leads actually punished a dev for bad behaviour, wouldn't want to upset them and make them feel like leaving. That'd be, you know, leading.
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aidanjt
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beandog wrote:
Generalities really suck, and really make some devs (me) kinda bugged.

I know, they really do. Unfortunately generalities cover core perceptions, so they need to be addressed regardless.

beandog wrote:
I agree, but I'm too busy to help out on that project. I'm already involved in probably two dozen different ones. Sorry.

That's understandable. It doesn't specifically have to be you. That project in itself should become more open-ended.

beandog wrote:
I don't get involved in them.

Awesome.

beandog wrote:
We tend to float around meritocracy. Works well for the herds I am involved in. We all respect each other's wisdom, knowledge, and work together towards the best situations we can for users after discussing possible solutions (gentoo media herds come to mind, we're a good group).

Yeah, meritocracy is great for tackling technical issues. But not every dev problem is technical, and sometimes you just need someone who can go in, kick ass, and get people on the same page.

beandog wrote:
I can think of a few times where people file stuff on bugzilla about ebuilds where they don't like my / our approach, and offer alternatives, and we've changed things around.

I know, and that is really great. But developing, and more specifically, being a strong leader isn't just about technical challenges and critiques of your code, that's much more readily quantifiable. The hard part is accepting criticism of behaviour, procedure, personnel management, social interaction/politicking and the like, where there's a great deal of ambiguity.

beandog wrote:
All I meant is you're painting a picture of what you see. If you're not actually part of the problem (or solution), I don't really see how you can accurately comment on the entire situation.

Yeah, this is another problem. Sometimes being the developer makes you part of the problem which stops you from being part of the solution. The guys in the inside looking out don't always get the whole picture. The outside guys looking in, can at times get a better overview, and they are worth listening to.

beandog wrote:
Not everyone is going to, so again, you do the best with what you have. I've accepted the practical reality that there are dork-mongers in the group. So, I avoid them, I work with them best I can, and still do my best. Just because there's bad apples isn't an excuse not to do something about it.

Totally agreed.

beandog wrote:
Batman Begins wrote:
What chance does Gotham have when the good people do nothing?

:lol:
_________________
juniper wrote:
you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

!equilibrium wrote:
well, to be true, I'm trying, without success, to be a developer since two years now

How is that? While recruitment is a bottleneck, it should not take that long. In the past two years I have successfully mentored several people. In my experience six months is about normal for the whole process.
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Yes, but, I have better things to be doing with my free time than pandering to some developers narcissism and arrogance. If I need to, then they're useless as developers.

Indeed, you shouldn't need to. In cases where you see this happening, you should contact User Relations.

AidanJT wrote:
You see, as it turns out, developing software is a team effort, and having a big bunch of I's isn't a team. They need to get along, work with their fellow developers, testers, and end-users in order to make everything work.

And most of us do.

AidanJT wrote:
And yes, I realise this doesn't describe *every* developer, and that everyone has their 'off' days where they would rather not have to explain their reasoning, but they have to either bite their tongue and just do it, or be civil and leave it for a day or two for when they could be bothered to be clearer. But for a number of devs, every day is their 'off'-day.

A very small number. Again, when you consistently meet such behavior, please contact User Relations. We do not have a policy of accepting asshole behavior.

I spend quite some time on IRC in a number of Gentoo channels, and what I see is a lot of devs doing their best to help users. Rude behavior really is the exception. I really wonder how you manage to catch so many devs on their "off" day...

AidanJT wrote:
But lord save us if the council or leads actually punished a dev for bad behaviour, wouldn't want to upset them and make them feel like leaving. That'd be, you know, leading.

I am a lead for the Qt and LXDE teams, and if I notice any bad behavior from "my" devs I will speak to them about it. I have a low tolerance for assholes. I expect devs and users to be civil, and do not hesitate to call them out for bad behavior (as you have personally experienced in this thread already).
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
!equilibrium
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 2109
Location: MI/BG/LC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
How is that? While recruitment is a bottleneck, it should not take that long. In the past two years I have successfully mentored several people. In my experience six months is about normal for the whole process.


My first mentor resigned as a Gentoo developer without warning me and the gentoo-core didn't notice me about him neither give me advices about the recruitment process or suggest me an alternative mentor; then, several months later, I switched to Diego as a mentor and when my mentoring process was completed, he told me that gentoo-core postponed my recruitment for other 6 months (and maybe more). Go and ask to the gentoo-core the reasons because I do not know nothing about them and I'm not allowed to post in that ML.

p.s.: however I'm fine with this situation as I want to be trained with an official / consistent documentation and best practises and not with vaporware or bloated / broken stupid tips (I'm really tired of all the non-written rules of the Gentoo world); dodging the problem is not the solution.
_________________
Arch Tester for Gentoo/FreeBSD
Equilibrium's Universe

all my contents are released under the Creative Commons Licence by-nc-nd 2.5
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 3913

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What i don't get is why someone wishing to be dev in gentoo must have a mentor and answer that "crappy" (i don't know the test, but it seems clear for diego that i could use that word) test.
You assign a mentor for what reason? I was thinking that guy was to test the trainee and say to others devs "it's ok to get him he know what he is doing" or "not yet", "drop him"... And for the trainee someone he could ask for help to understand rules/doc from gentoo, hence the word used "mentor"...

Why the tests so ? If you cannot trust the mentor on his own judgment, well, why trusting a test that the mentor could fill itself for his trainee anyway ?
Why testing if someone understand/knows python and ebuild when he is skill at QT/C++ or anything but not python/ebuild ?
Most professional devs must knows many languages because of their jobs, that's not the case of self-made/casual/amateur devs, and the test filter them away.

The bottleneck seems to be that test. Why not simply remove it and go for the rule: A trust B, B trust C, A trust C because of B.

When everyone is jedis and padawan, you'll just need the emperor to rules them all with an iron fist.


I really don't get how the structure doesn't work: on the forum, someone going off the rules is report and moderators take actions (refuse to do something is also an action and they also always post an explain why they choose not to). If a moderator does something you don't think is right, you can still ask another mod for a review.
It seems you are more or less using the same structure for devs, with devs-rel. Why this doesn't work as easy as the forum is mystery for me. Devs seems to gives more respect to the moderators than their own devrels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ssuominen
Developer
Developer


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 2000
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The test is hardly a bottleneck here, it's the lack of recruiters... I have two new developers that I have been mentoring, only waiting for recruiters to finish the process (involving end review session and actually granting the commit access). Both of which filled up the tests (quizs) in no time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 3913

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
involving end review session

Isn't this the review of test ? Anyway might just be because A checking C because A don't trust B.
And considering time for granting access (see just lower): this part take 6 months?

ssuominen wrote:
granting the commit access
Saw that, it's just done in hours in bugs.gentoo.org so not really a part of the bottleneck.

Lol are you saying recruiters cannot recruit recruiters ?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ssuominen
Developer
Developer


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 2000
Location: Finland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Lol are you saying recruiters cannot recruit recruiters ?


As much as I wanted to avoid saying it but yes, lack of manpower (or time) among recruiters.
Mentor can be done with a recruit in very short time but the recruit will still have to wait for months to get his bug moved forward.

And to be fair, I could as well blame myself for that... for not becoming one. :?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hypnos
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 2859
Location: Omnipresent

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the function of recruiters? Why can't regular devs or devrel grant commit access?

This would likely be moot if a kernel-like organizational model were used. Then, it's not a matter of who is an official dev or not, but who gets automatica pulls or has to submit patches

EDIT: typo
_________________
Personal overlay | Simple backup scheme


Last edited by Hypnos on Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
saellaven
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 209

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole process should be streamlined. This gets back to what I was saying about the bureaucracy of gentoo, it seems to exist for the sake of bureaucracy rather than efficiency even though most devs, most people for that matter, would rather just do their jobs than argue and wade through red tape.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yngwin
Developer
Developer


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypnos wrote:
This would likely be moot if a kernel-like organizational model were used. Then, it's not a matter of who is an official dev or not, but who gets automatica pulls or has to submit patches

Yes, that could be a better model. We'd also need git instead of the current cvs. Again, more manpower seems to be needed to make that migration.
_________________
"Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
Free Culture | Defective by Design | EFF
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
krinn
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 3913

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Again, more manpower seems to be needed to make that migration.

Not against you (as you're one of the few that speak with us, you're also our only source of information).

All devs kept saying they lack manpower, i agree with you on that point.
But what i don't understand is why it remain as is.

Let me try to explain with an example (using stupid values)
To feed the gnome team you need 10 devs, they are 2 right now
For the kde team: 10 devs, only 2 now
For Xorg team: 12 devs, only 3 now
Recruiters: only 1 now, with 5 guys that team can feed the kde/xorg/gnome team with new devs

If you see, kde team lack manpower, xorg team lack manpower, gnome team lack manpower and recruiters lack manpower too. Everyone lack manpower.
But if you re-assign kde team (2 devs) + gnome team (2 devs) to recruiters then... tada recruiters team is now 5 devs. And because recruiters are now 5 they can do their work and feed others team with new devs. Problem solved.

For gentoo users, what we will have: well, until the recruiters team end up its first task of getting the new devs, the gnome and kde maintenance will be frozen. If you tell users why, they will understand and agree to wait because it will be better after the news devs will be add. Some might disagree and post flames thread everywhere (i suppose mostly kde users, they love to bitch for nothing :) ) but everyone will agree to wait for the good cause (ok maybe 6 months is a bit hard, but i suppose that wait time could be shorten a bit)

This is one option, many others could exists, like involving more users on some task, kinda like what that dev has done here https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-816758-highlight-raster.html that might help getting "small hands" to help a dev test many things without doing it himself.
I think many users could help with simple tasks and many of them are even good devs (that don't have time/ don't wish... to be in a team), but still could gave an hand if someone ask them.
To me, it seems everyone lower arms and says "we're lacking manpower and we can't do nothing about it"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum