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Princess Nell
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Should firefox be removed from portage? Reply with quote

If the title sounds funny to some of you: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/16/02/04/2221204/firefox-44-deletes-fine-grained-cookie-management.

Maybe it's time to bring the palemoon overlay into the fold.
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Slippery Jim
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All we can do is make sure people know about the issues. I don't want Gentoo to be my mom. I'm a grown up, and can make my own decisions about what software I use. I wouldn't be opposed to some kind of security mask that I could set in a configuration file, though.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per the comments in the linked Slashdot article, there are several cookie-management extensions (e.g. Self-Destructing Cookies) that can serve a similar purpose, and likely do so in a way that is less irritating. That said, this reeks of their recent stunts where they declare a feature to be broken because "reasons" then rip it out, often without adequate warning or suggestions on how to compensate for the loss.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I'm for freedom of choice. Sometimes freedom means you have to let people be stupid or make choices you wouldn't.

I'll tell you why I use Firefox. Because Hulu works. But I don't use Firefox as a primary web browser. In fact, I use Firefox, chromium, and Opera depending on what I want to do. Firefox for hulu, opera for Facebook, and chromium for everything else.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAF project down the drain to corporate greed masquerading as care.

Time to install Palemoon.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously: Where are we supposed to go when we're being kettled in on all sides? To use the web these days without tearing your hair out, you have to have ARCH=amd64 and obscene amounts of RAM just to run the damn browsers, let alone build them. The content isn't any more sophisticated than it was five, ten years ago.

Yeah Palemoon would be nice, so would Icecat/Iceweasel. Hell, a legally valid USE=bindist on firefox itself would be nice. I get the feeling Gentoo already wants to exorcise anything Mozilla-related from the tree given its current state of abandonment.
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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Seriously: Where are we supposed to go when we're being kettled in on all sides? To use the web these days without tearing your hair out, you have to have ARCH=amd64 and obscene amounts of RAM just to run the damn browsers, let alone build them. The content isn't any more sophisticated than it was five, ten years ago.

Yeah Palemoon would be nice, so would Icecat/Iceweasel. Hell, a legally valid USE=bindist on firefox itself would be nice. I get the feeling Gentoo already wants to exorcise anything Mozilla-related from the tree given its current state of abandonment.


Lol. I know that pain too well.

16gb of ram and now it is quiet. with 4gb on t9500, i run over some times into memory issues because of google chrom eating up all stuff.

but look at android. without an adblocker, the nexus 7 2012 tablet is sluggish. so many ads and java scripts on any page, so the burden on devices definitely increased in past few years.

google chrome here becuase it is the fastest. big memory holes.
firefox for gentoo forums and some other stuff.

firefox was nice in the gnome 2 days, but these are long gone. firefox went slow, unresponsive, stupid plugins, stupid user interface. nothing to really convince me to use it more

i used opera to test out some pages, does not convince me either.

..

No idea whats behind all those browsers, but they are huge in downloaded program size. looking at android and on linux. no more 5mb browsers ...
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gave up on firefox a while back when they decided to disregard their users... I used to be really excited about the project, running nightlies and everything even in the days when it was under a lot of development and would sometimes break backward compatibility, but they took a totalitarian turn and, by the time Australis came around, I abandoned it for palemoon, which I'm quite happy with.

firefox shouldn't be removed from the tree any more than gnome or systemd should be, given those projects share a similar totalitarian mindset. All of them are a tool to be used or not. Gentoo is about choice. It definitely would be nice if palemoon moved into the main tree though, as more people are likely to find it that way.
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ct85711
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, I've been sticking with firefox as my main browser because chrome's ad block plugins are worse than firefox's (now with ff switching to chrome's type, this may be changing). I like on my ad block plugins where I can specify an url to block directly (allows me to block much more than what I can see, like tracking scripts, and iframes).

I would try out palemoon, but I refuse to add any overlays. So until palemoon or any others are added to the main tree I won't be trying them out.
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tranquilcool
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ct85711 wrote:
Sadly, I've been sticking with firefox as my main browser because chrome's ad block plugins are worse than firefox's (now with ff switching to chrome's type, this may be changing). I like on my ad block plugins where I can specify an url to block directly (allows me to block much more than what I can see, like tracking scripts, and iframes).

I would try out palemoon, but I refuse to add any overlays. So until palemoon or any others are added to the main tree I won't be trying them out.


You don't have to add an overlay to install palemoon, unless you consider a local overlay any overlay.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Princess Nell,

No. Nothing should be removed because someone does not like a package.
Users need to be able to make informed decisions about the choices Gentoo offers, so the information to facilitate that needs to be available to them.
That does not imply, its needs to be Gentoo branded information.
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jonathan183
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no to removal ... keep the choice ;)
yes to palemoon but last time I tried it would not run on hardened system :(

links works well unless you need javascript, OK for some sites but not for all :(
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Nothing should be removed because someone does not like a package.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure we've seen packages disappear for the same, or less, reason before.

"Bit rot" has got to be the most over-used reason, unless it's something with an agenda behind it, in which case bit-rot is a sign of progress or innurvation, or something.
Quote:
Users need to be able to make informed decisions about the choices Gentoo offers, so the information to facilitate that needs to be available to them.
That does not imply, its needs to be Gentoo branded information.

Just presenting the alternative, of what khayyam wrote about a while back; if someone is poisoning the well, then I for one have no problem with Gentoo removing the package, and allowing people to use it from an overlay instead.

Gentoo is under no obligation to include any package; a principled stand to base decisions on, would be much more consistent than whim.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonathan183 wrote:
yes to palemoon but last time I tried it would not run on hardened system :(

++ I have many random segfaults with it. It usually even segfaults before opening the main window, even if I removed '~/moonchild productions' (BTW: the need to have filenames with spaces in your main home folder is also disgusting). Also, some releases do build with system-libs, some won't. All in all, my impression is that the project is not yet stable enough to be used as a main browser. Yes, I am a hardened user. But even if hardened - as indicated - should be related, this is not acceptable: Very likely, hardened only turns some usually invisible serious programming errors (like stale pointer usage or some overflows) into segfaults (or if the cause should be intentional hacks which won't work with hardened, it is another reason speaking against the project in the current stage).
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modnaruved
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forced to ask self: who use "Hello" and "Share This Page" ?

- it's might be a good candidates to remove...
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
jonathan183 wrote:
yes to palemoon but last time I tried it would not run on hardened system :(

++ I have many random segfaults with it. It usually even segfaults before opening the main window, even if I removed '~/moonchild productions' (BTW: the need to have filenames with spaces in your main home folder is also disgusting). Also, some releases do build with system-libs, some won't. All in all, my impression is that the project is not yet stable enough to be used as a main browser. Yes, I am a hardened user. But even if hardened - as indicated - should be related, this is not acceptable: Very likely, hardened only turns some usually invisible serious programming errors (like stale pointer usage or some overflows) into segfaults (or if the cause should be intentional hacks which won't work with hardened, it is another reason speaking against the project in the current stage).


I've been using it exclusively for a year or so without any problems other than the occasional "we don't trust this type of encryption because it's insecure" message on websites that use weak keys
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
I'll tell you why I use Firefox. Because Hulu works. But I don't use Firefox as a primary web browser. In fact, I use Firefox, chromium, and Opera depending on what I want to do. Firefox for hulu, opera for Facebook, and chromium for everything else.


I primarily use palemoon, but use opera-beta and firefox when a site doesn't work with palemoon, such as my two banks and a US government site. With the latest palemoon, JPM Chase's site works with UserAgent lying and telling the site that it's really IE8. Palemoon won't work on Citibank nor will stable Opera (site says browser is too old) nor will Firefox (site says my version is too old). Opera-beta and Firefox work on the government site but I use Firefox because I don't really trust Opera-beta because on Windows you can't shut off the autoupdater which hammers my router with traffic.

Multiple browsers are needed because the internet is a mess.

P.S.
You would think that a trillion dollar bank would support all browsers. CitiBank doesn't even recognize case in passwords. I read that on their site and couldn't believe it. My password has upper and lower case, a special character and numbers. I tried it in all lower case and it still works! No wonder they got hacked! But hey, the US government will make up their losses, so why should they care? (/politics, sorry)
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:

You would think that a trillion dollar bank would support all browsers. CitiBank doesn't even recognize case in passwords. I read that on their site and couldn't believe it. My password has upper and lower case, a special character and numbers. I tried it in all lower case and it still works! No wonder they got hacked! But hey, the US government will make up their losses, so why should they care? (/politics, sorry)


I bank with a local credit union, both personal and business, which have completely different websites, and both work just fine with palemoon and let me use any character in my passwords, though only up to 16 characters, which is mildly disappointing, but...

needless to say, not every bank fails to work in palemoon (bonus: mine also does not pull in scripts from any other sites).

Right now, the only site I have even a mild issue in palemoon with is, yelp. It doesn't load my full management status screen.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I've been using it exclusively for a year or so without any problems

After finally finding the time to debug, I found that the crashes were caused by -finline-functions in my CFLAGS which I forgot to filter. So PEBCAK :oops:
Palemoon works fine and is about to replace firefox here :)
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I briefly looked at palemoon but the fact that gstreamer, and other requirements, were non-optional, caused me to give up on the idea ... also:

palemoon-26.0.3.ebuild:
REQUIRED_BUILDSPACE='12G'

firefox-38.6.0.ebuild:
CHECKREQS_DISK_BUILD="4G"

... so, now with 200% extra what? Anything that needs three times the space to build is not something I'd consider an improvement.

best ... khay
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
saellaven wrote:
I've been using it exclusively for a year or so without any problems

After finally finding the time to debug, I found that the crashes were caused by -finline-functions in my CFLAGS which I forgot to filter. So PEBCAK :oops:
Palemoon works fine and is about to replace firefox here :)


In a similar vein, while not related directly to this thread, I also dropped my graphite flags since they were causing random strange issues (particularly with clamav). I never really noticed a significant speed up with them system-wide, so, it just seemed like ricing for the sake of ricing to have such flags in my make.conf CFLAGS
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jonathan183
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I have a separate user for surfing the net I can get round most of the shortcommings in the browser. I have not gone quite so far as wiping the web surfing users home folder at the end of each session just yet ... but I am getting fairly close to it.
Links does the job for quite a bit of the web surfing. It also works for one online bank but not for another :(
The Gentoo forums work, but something odd seems to happen with the caching so viewing a post I have just made does not quite work as expected.

As for plugins for Firefox, noscript is the main one for me, wiping cookies when Firefox closes would be good enough for me. Being able to trust Firefox or a plugin to wipe everthing when a session is closed has sadly become a thing of the past. To be honest the same would also apply to palemoon.
There seems to be a sort of arms race between people wanting to put data including cookies on a systen and those trying to keep them off or at least make them temporary ...
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I bank with a local credit union, both personal and business, which have completely different websites, and both work just fine with palemoon and let me use any character in my passwords, though only up to 16 characters, which is mildly disappointing, but...

needless to say, not every bank fails to work in palemoon (bonus: mine also does not pull in scripts from any other sites).


Notice what's common to Citibank, Chase, and USG? They are all big! mega-big. So they can say do it our way, not the standard way. Actually, I think Microsoft tells them that some hacked-up Microsoft way is THE standard way.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
I briefly looked at palemoon but the fact that gstreamer, and other requirements, were non-optional, caused me to give up on the idea ...

This might be just an ebuild issue. Some days/weeks ago, the palemoon ebuild also did depend on libnotify, but when requested the ebuild maintainer found out that it is aparently runtime-optional and removed the dependency.
I guess there could be made a gstreamer USE-flag, although I did not check. Perhaps you can ask the maintanier.
What is worse for me is that firefox could use a current version of gstreamer over the long obsolete one, and moreover, new version can even use ffmpeg instead.
Of course, one must give the maintainers time, but I hope that they are pulling these corresponding patches (at least the ffmpeg) from firefox.
Quote:
palemoon-26.0.3.ebuild:
REQUIRED_BUILDSPACE='12G'

firefox-38.6.0.ebuild:
CHECKREQS_DISK_BUILD="4G"

Quite a lot is explained by the installation procedure of the ebuild in the end: In order to not loose any flags, they pack the installed package in an archive and let that install through the mozilla.eclass. I do not understand this comment about flags, but I guess they prefer that the users of pax kernels need USE=xattr only activated on tar and not necessarily on portage and coreutils (or maybe at the time of writing the ebuild, portage was not yet able to handle xattr correctly). So again, if this is an issue for you, you should perhaps ask the ebuild maintainer.
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mv
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
mv wrote:
saellaven wrote:
I've been using it exclusively for a year or so without any problems

After finally finding the time to debug, I found that the crashes were caused by -finline-functions in my CFLAGS which I forgot to filter. So PEBCAK :oops:
Palemoon works fine and is about to replace firefox here :)


In a similar vein, while not related directly to this thread, I also dropped my graphite flags since they were causing random strange issues (particularly with clamav). I never really noticed a significant speed up with them system-wide, so, it just seemed like ricing for the sake of ricing to have such flags in my make.conf CFLAGS

I did the same with graphite, though -finline-functions still looks like a good idea; even the kernel is preferring it, because the complier can usually decide better what to inline.
Just as a reference for those who are interested: Here are the flags I am filtering particularly for palemoon:
grep -R palemoon /etc/portage/package.cflags wrote:
/etc/portage/package.cflags/all-systems:www-client/palemoon +D*FILE* +*math* +fno-common +fmerge-all-constants +finline-functions +fdirectives-only
/etc/portage/package.cflags/flto:www-client/palemoon +flto* # -flto needs too much memory/time
/etc/portage/package.cflags/patches:www-client/palemoon "export SHELL=/bin/sh"
/etc/portage/package.cflags/pie:www-client/palemoon +fPIE +pie

Firefox needs exactly the same entries (I had made a paste/copy mistake and omitted "+finline-functions +fdirectives-only" first which apparently caused the crashes).
What is remarkable is the export needed for "SHELL" (with my SHELL=/bin/zsh from the interactive shell and unfortunately not changed by portage it won't build), but for firefox it is the same.
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