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danialsmith49
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: How do you avoid bloat and problematic components in Gentoo? Reply with quote

[Moderator note: as observed by fedeliallalinea, this post is cross-posted to linuxquestions.org. It is under observation as to whether this is a legitimate cross-post or if this is a spammer borrowing text from elsewhere. -Hu]

There was a hidden spam-link, now removed. -- Akkara

Let's share our experiences.

systemd and PulseAudio often froze the shutdown process for a while. I replaced systemd with OpenRC. Somehow, GNOME crashed very often in the presence of some KDE programs. Thus, I ditched GNOME.

It turns out that RedHat has been forcing distributions to use their softwares long before the softwares became stable. Two (former) RedHat employees caught my attention. Lennart Poettering forced Fedora and other distros to use PulseAudio and systemd before they became stable. systemd developers forced distributions to use systemd by forcing udev to depend on systemd. udev was used by many distributions. Later, udev was eaten by systemd. To solve this issue I have done RnD in (URL removed) but didn't get the answer. Havoc Pennington founded freedesktop and forced major desktop environments and web browsers to use dbus via freedesktop. Havoc Pennington pushed a lot of things through freedesktop. Linus Torvalds had to stop dbus developers from shoving kdbus into linux kernel a few years ago. If dbus was replaced by kdbus, a lot of programs could break on *BSD.

I realized that ALSA + dmix would be just fine because I don't use Bluetooth audio(which still doesn't work reliably on Linux. Thanks to bluez) or have a second sound card. I don't really use pulseaudio per-application volume, either. Thus, I plan to remove PulseAudio by moving to Gentoo Linux in the near future. I'll be able to reduce CPU usage and latency and remove an extra layer between ALSA and user applications. I have yet to decide how problematic PulseAudio is at this point, though. If I really wanted or needed a sound server in the future, I might try combining ALSA and JACK. Since Gentoo requires a lot of compilation, I will buy a new CPU.

I used NetworkManager without much thought when I used GNOME, but after replacing NetworkManger with OpenRC's network management capability, I gained more flexibility and more network configuration options. NetworkManager was difficult to handle directly via command line or text file configurations.

I'm not sure if I want to avoid dbus at all costs because gtk+3, many web browsers except qupzilla and surf, and many other graphics programs depend on dbus directly or indirectly. But, I can try to minimize dbus footprint as much as possible in Gentoo by USE flags. I could use qupzilla and surf if I wanted to avoid dbus in web browser, but qupzilla still pulls a lot of dependencies via qt5-base and ffmpeg. Plus, many other programs still require dbus. Thus, chrome or firefox with dbus seems to be a lesser poison than qt5-base or webkitgtk.
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POSIX_ME_HARDER
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv's overlay offers GTK+3 without dbus.

As someone who uses mdev and avoids dbus, pulseaudio, and co, but also wants a keyboard driven browser, I am struggling as well.
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For gtk3 and qt5 it seem to be the accessibility flags that pull in the dbus bloat.
For some reason accessibility seems to be required for some packages.
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Marcih
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
For gtk3 and qt5 it seem to be the accessibility flags that pull in the dbus bloat.
For some reason accessibility seems to be required for some packages.

I have had this exact unpleasant experience with my laptop where I try to keep things as minimalist and secure as possible. This means no Poottering, no dbus, no *kit. Much to my surprise, I had discovered the dbus daemon to be running when checking system usage in htop. How could this be? I checked reverse dependencies and lo and behold, dbus was pulled in by at-spi2core, which was pulled in by webkit-gtk, which was pulled in by surf, with no USE flag to stop any of them to be pulled in.
I'm currently tolerating dbus because as patriotic as using Links exclusively might be, I sometimes do want things like CSS or even JavaScript.
By the way, if anyone has a solution for this that I missed, feel free to post it, I'll be very happy to purge dbus from my system.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need a USE=-poettering flag. AFAIK there's absolutely nothing he has collaborated on which turned out to be beneficial to Linux.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue,

I've got a profile like that. :)
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Last edited by NeddySeagoon on Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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CasperVector
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
We need a USE=-poettering flag. AFAIK there's absolutely nothing he has collaborated on which turned out to be beneficial to Linux.

What about ifplugd, at least the sanitised (of course not by himself) version in busybox?
(Disclaimer: I do hate LP and systemd/pulseaudio/avahi.)
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why use ifplugd? dhcpcd does everything better.
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Marcih
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
We need a USE=-poettering flag. AFAIK there's absolutely nothing he has collaborated on which turned out to be beneficial to Linux.

We need to file a bug report in Gentoo's bugzilla for every single one of systemd&company's ebuilds and complain that such flag doesn't exist.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marcih wrote:
Much to my surprise, I had discovered the dbus daemon to be running when checking system usage in htop. How could this be? I checked reverse dependencies and lo and behold, dbus was pulled in by at-spi2core, which was pulled in by webkit-gtk, which was pulled in by surf, with no USE flag to stop any of them to be pulled in.

I'm not exactly trying to avoid dbus, but it annoys me that I have two instances of dbus-daemon running because of this and I'm not sure what even starts those processes. My system doesn't magically feel any more accessible for it either.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to defend PulseAudio a bit here: It really makes audio things pretty much plug and play, however, with an overhead. This is why I avoid it on laptops and other mobile devices (Nokia N900 has/has PA, which drained its battery).

So for general desktop use PA is "fine".

Still I had some hopes for KLANG... I think it's a dead project by now. :(
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CasperVector
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Why use ifplugd? dhcpcd does everything better.

I prefer udhcpc; it just lacks link status detection, which can be provided by busybox ifplugd.
I found this solution to offer better modularity and still much less code.
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
I have to defend PulseAudio a bit here: It really makes audio things pretty much plug and play, however, with an overhead. This is why I avoid it on laptops and other mobile devices (Nokia N900 has/has PA, which drained its battery).

So for general desktop use PA is "fine".

Still I had some hopes for KLANG... I think it's a dead project by now. :(


What about JACK?
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Morality124
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
1clue,

I've got a profile like that. :)


Is there something like that for using older OpenRC 0.17, make.conf settings, etc.? I've collected tidbits of information from various forum posts but it would be nice to have a more central location. Not to mention possible dealing with the new profiles which only make the situation more obfuscated.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124 wrote:
What about JACK?
I've been thinking of using JACK as general purpose audio mixer. Not sure how well it works with programs that don't support it directly...
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morality124,

I'm using openrc-0.17 with the default/linux/amd64/17.0/no-multilib (stable) * profile with that set up.
I've had to create an overlay, so I can add USE=olde-gentoo to a number of ebuilds to get them to swerve a few of the banned packages.

I suppose I should publish the overlay.
Its unlikely I could push the ebuild patches into the gentoo repo, even if olde-gentoo was p.masked.
Then we would need static profiles nh the whole thing grows arms and legs

Hmm ... the overlay could provide profiles.
Code:
$ emerge --info | wgetpaste
Your paste can be seen here: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/BdyYEnrz5KmAGMAraMW1/


The biggest problem is easy access to documentation on the set up. It should all be in Gentoos old CVS, which is still online. It will need some archaeology and wikifing.
e.g. You need an xorg.conf, there is no automatic anything.
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audiodef
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Morality124 wrote:
What about JACK?
I've been thinking of using JACK as general purpose audio mixer. Not sure how well it works with programs that don't support it directly...


I use a2jmidid to connect non-JACK-aware MIDI things to JACK. I think there is also an audio bridge, but I can't recall for sure off the top of my head. Or maybe one isn't necessary... I need to look into this myself.
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